|
Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 08:10 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:04 Toadvine wrote:On August 23 2011 07:25 TimeSpiral wrote:On August 23 2011 06:26 Toadvine wrote:On August 23 2011 06:06 TimeSpiral wrote:
All we can do is hope the developers let this thing play out for a little while.
That is what is needed.
Let the metagame balance out this little ruffle. It is far from a free win, but it is a potent all-in (which there are many in SC2). You have like 15 posts in that huge KA whine thread that reached 70 pages around the time Blizzard removed it, arguing in favor of its removal. Why wasn't letting the game play out the preferable option back then? Besides, at the moment, this is probably the single most powerful all-in since SC2's release. Maybe the 3 Gate VR from before the VR nerf would be contender. At the GSL level Protoss literally doesn't win against this build unless the Terran makes a huge mistake. So yeah, at the moment it is very much a free win on that level of play. You have either (a) a ridiculous good memory, or (b) some pretty vigilant search skills. Eitherway, I cannot help but give you mad props for that character argument. I believe the majority of the Protoss community was advising T and Z's of the world to l2p at the time the KA was nerfed? No? I could be wrong, of course. I actually cannot think if a single Terran unit that has not been nerfed since release. The Banshee, maybe? You know, I believe any balance argument pretty much follows the same format: [My Race = UP, your race = IMBA, (IF suggested nerf affects "YOUR RACE" then SUPPORT, else "TROLL RAGE ON TL"] Sitting on the sidelines are the ones who say, "let the metagame balance it out." I think a play encompassing the entire tech-tree is a pretty difficult thing to nerf, but who knows. Maybe it is wildly imba. Let me go plug it into my imba calculator and tell you. How about an on-screen warning for all the imba plays? Yeah. I like that. "Terran has constructed a barrack, a factory and a Starport. Prepare." "Protoss has begun construction of a pylon. Prepare." "There's a nydus worm in your base. Prepare." Haha! Some of the nerfs and buffs have been fine, others have been terrible, but "balancing" a game like this (also known as population management) must be such a nightmare ... I tend to remember people who put some care into their posts. You should probably take that as a compliment. Not that I agreed at the time, but having a properly formulated opinion to disagree with is valuable in itself. By the way, I think a lot of Protosses were ready to accept some kind of nerf to KA, and there were reasonable suggestions floating around that thread. Of course, this was way too complicated for Blizzard's balance team, so they removed it completely. I dunno, I tend to think of myself as a reasonable person. When Zergs were complaining about ZvP, I wouldn't tell them to l2p or use nydus moar. I don't even necessarily care about game balance in my own play, because I can 3 Gate VR a Terran doing a tech opening, and kill him 70% of the time, completely sidestepping the 1/1/1 issue in the first place. What really pisses me off is the mongoloidness of it all. If Terrans were doing sick harassment with great micro and multitasking, expanding at good timings and playing with a well defined lategame in mind, I wouldn't complain that much if they were dominating Protoss left and right. Zergs are kind of doing that at the moment, and I still like watching high-level PvZ - and I'm completely in favor of letting that matchup work itself out. But this, is just massing tons of stuff off 1 base, and then ramming it down the opponent's throat. It makes for absolutely terrible, disheartening games, and makes SC2 seem like a total joke of an aspiring e-sport. I've never played DotA, and have no idea about the rules, but the DotA2 finals were a lot more interesting and fun to watch than MC vs PuMa. The fact that such a garbage build can be so insanely effective just makes me dislike SC2 as a game, and start thinking that maybe it doesn't deserve all this hype, and this great scene; and that at it's core it's a fairly mediocre RTS riding on the coattails of its predecessor. And the fact that you seemingly can't nerf it without fucking up the whole game only serves to reinforce this idea. :/ I take my hat off to you, good sir! Very well said. However, there is a way to nerf it, without breaking the whole game.
Patch 1.4
.
.
.
MULEs can no longer harvest from a mineral patch, that's been harvested by an SCV (super saturation).
.
.
.
.
.May I have my Nobel Prize now, plz?
For a small nerf, let the Mule mine on top of the SCV, but disable the SCV's mining while it does so. When saturated, you'd lose ~one SCV worth of mining time.
|
On August 23 2011 08:16 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:12 mmianzde wrote:
has anyone tried something like forge first and get armor before it hits? Like forge +3 gates Forge first against a terran? Let me ask you this: are you Mr. Bean's son? You know what would happen with forge first? Terran wouldnt bother with 111, he would just make 3 rax mass MM and go kill you. Or contain with bunkers and expo behind it.
A forge is not as big an investment as you make it seem. Would basically be like a normal 3 gate just delayed slightly.
|
On August 23 2011 07:43 Souli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2011 07:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:16 okrane wrote:
Dumb question: why do marines need 45hp w/o combat shield and 55hp with combat shield later in the game?
How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? Terrans need marines for DPS, especially in TvZ. Once aoe enters the fray, 45hp marines die. Like really fast. The problem comes from the timing between lots of marines -> aoe enters the fray. 1-1-1 nails this timing. I suggest Blizzard may swap storm research with feedback. That wouldn't only make them equal to ghosts (storm - emp) but also maybe stop the push. Any comments?
That would be a horrible decision IMO as it would make a huge timing push vZ possible - at least I think that.
No, I really like the "no super saturation with MULES" idea WAY better - super saturation for the race that get's the most out of a mineral surplus, yeah, great idea Blizzard...
|
If you do forge you need to get cannons in your mineral lines or you straight up lose to cloakshees.
If forge builds were a good response to 1/1/1 you'd see a lot more cloakshees, too. It looks just like 1/1/1 and even with cannons they'd be able to pick areas of your base apart for minutes and minutes.
|
after reading op, dont see how this hasnt been close.
since when are ppl allowed to make such threads with no data or evidence.
|
On August 23 2011 08:14 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Ok, I'm going to make a suggestion in bold here so everyone sees it.
Redesign the MULE so that it doesn't ignore worker saturation levels.
Terran is now on EQUAL FOOTING in 1 base situations, rather than drastically ahead. (~28% at saturation levels I believe)
Terran therefore has less units with this push, specifically less Marines. Therefore it becomes a "balanced" build, meaning it's still deadly if it catches you off-guard, but if scouted ahead of time becomes feasible to hold in an equal skill situation. Changing the principles of how mules work is a far bigger change than this situation warrants. It would be a huge change to the terran economy, which would affect every single aspect of terran play. Probably comparable to giving the marine 5 damage and saying its fine because of the 1-1-1. What they need to do is find a way for protoss to crank out some units faster without breaking everything.
Changing the principles of how MULEs work isn't specifically regarding the 1-1-1, it's regarding game balance as a whole.
Like I said, this change would put Terran on EQUAL FOOTING (note: this is not synonymous with "behind") in 1 Base, or Equal Base situations, rather than drastically ahead.
As it is, Terran players ALWAYS MULE unless FORCED to Scan or Supply Drop in almost every situation. Should this change be implemented, it's likely we'd see Terran players use more Scans and Supply Drops after saturation points are reached, as it MAY be more cost efficient than using a MULE on an already saturated base.
In regard to the 1-1-1 (Marine/Tank/Banshee or Raven or both/SCV all-in) the effect this has deals with what many players, including oGsMC find to be the problem: The marine count. Lowering the Terran advantage in Mineral income that they have over Protoss players means LESS MINERAL DUMP UNITS, which in this particular build is the very potent and cost efficient Marine.
You suggest finding a way for Protoss to crank out units faster without breaking everything, but I'm pretty sure this is almost the same thing:
A way for Terran to be able to crank out less units, without breaking everything.
|
On August 23 2011 08:20 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:43 Souli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2011 07:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:16 okrane wrote:
Dumb question: why do marines need 45hp w/o combat shield and 55hp with combat shield later in the game?
How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? Terrans need marines for DPS, especially in TvZ. Once aoe enters the fray, 45hp marines die. Like really fast. The problem comes from the timing between lots of marines -> aoe enters the fray. 1-1-1 nails this timing. I suggest Blizzard may swap storm research with feedback. That wouldn't only make them equal to ghosts (storm - emp) but also maybe stop the push. Any comments? That would be a horrible decision IMO as it would make a huge timing push vZ possible - at least I think that. No, I really like the "no super saturation with MULES" idea WAY better - super saturation for the race that get's the most out of a mineral surplus, yeah, great idea Blizzard...
Where's this mule stuff coming from? Mules causing a headache is just a meaningless side effect of the allin being so strong that it can trap you on one base. If you aren't trapped on one base mules are fine.
Only solutions I can see are a) nerf marine dps at least temporarily (give it back with upgrade) or b) slow down Terran tech so Protoss can get aoe and a decent gateway force against mass marine with support.
|
On August 23 2011 08:21 Resistentialism wrote:
If you do forge you need to get cannons in your mineral lines or you straight up lose to cloakshees.
If forge builds were a good response to 1/1/1 you'd see a lot more cloakshees, too. It looks just like 1/1/1 and even with cannons they'd be able to pick areas of your base apart for minutes and minutes.
If your probes are safe cloakshees wont really be a bad thing. Plus you could defend a natural with cannons(probably risky against any ground pressure), or just go into 3 gate robo then play from there.
|
On August 23 2011 08:23 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:14 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Ok, I'm going to make a suggestion in bold here so everyone sees it.
Redesign the MULE so that it doesn't ignore worker saturation levels.
Terran is now on EQUAL FOOTING in 1 base situations, rather than drastically ahead. (~28% at saturation levels I believe)
Terran therefore has less units with this push, specifically less Marines. Therefore it becomes a "balanced" build, meaning it's still deadly if it catches you off-guard, but if scouted ahead of time becomes feasible to hold in an equal skill situation. Changing the principles of how mules work is a far bigger change than this situation warrants. It would be a huge change to the terran economy, which would affect every single aspect of terran play. Probably comparable to giving the marine 5 damage and saying its fine because of the 1-1-1. What they need to do is find a way for protoss to crank out some units faster without breaking everything. Changing the principles of how MULEs work isn't specifically regarding the 1-1-1, it's regarding game balance as a whole. Like I said, this change would put Terran on EQUAL FOOTING (note: this is not synonymous with "behind") in 1 Base, or Equal Base situations, rather than drastically ahead. As it is, Terran players ALWAYS MULE unless FORCED to Scan or Supply Drop in almost every situation. Should this change be implemented, it's likely we'd see Terran players use more Scans and Supply Drops after saturation points are reached, as it MAY be more cost efficient than using a MULE on an already saturated base. In regard to the 1-1-1 (Marine/Tank/Banshee or Raven or both/SCV all-in) the effect this has deals with what many players, including oGsMC find to be the problem: The marine count. Lowering the Terran advantage in Mineral income that they have over Protoss players means LESS MINERAL DUMP UNITS, which in this particular build is the very potent and cost efficient Marine. You suggest finding a way for Protoss to crank out units faster without breaking everything, but I'm pretty sure this is almost the same thing: A way for Terran to be able to crank out less units, without breaking everything.
Thats right. And as I remember the last statistics, terran are ahead of zerg and waaaaay ahead of protoss in win%.
Nerfing terran is the logical choice.
|
Wow, I thought this thread was getting bad from the beginning, but the last half is just madness, people actually suggesting massive nerfs to mules and marines, non lifting ccs... do you really intend to break the game or are you just shouting out whatever comes to your heads now?
|
On August 23 2011 08:23 PhiliBiRD wrote:
after reading op, dont see how this hasnt been close.
since when are ppl allowed to make such threads with no data or evidence.
Since when are people allowed to participate in backseat moderation?
Furthermore, many pro PvT games of the last month or so combined with the experience of the players playing said matchup provide enough data and evidence.
|
On August 23 2011 08:17 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:58 cilinder007 wrote:On August 23 2011 07:52 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 07:05 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 07:01 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with. You mean so that Terran can be even more behind in the economic game? The only thing keeping Terrans on even remote equal footing in the mid game economy is the use of the mule. In a general sense, Protoss should be 4-7 workers ahead by the 30 worker mark, which is then matched by the +3-4 workers per mule. You'd have to redesign the way the mule works altogether to balance out any positive or negative side effects. Could you explain to me why terran didn't have the mule in bw and still did fine? Terran units are way more cost efficient. Constant chrono boost on probes doesn't change as much as you think. I really shouldn't respond to this because of the sheer stupidity of comparing BW to SC2, but I will out of humor. Chrono boost effectively gives protoss an extra 10 workers every 17 boosts, or 0.588 workers per ~45 in game seconds (time to get 25 energy). By the 6-7 minute mark, that can yield a +5 worker difference, or a 195-225 minerals per minute difference, which in turn gives about a 750 mineral bonus to Protoss (or 500 if you subtract probe cost). ~4 zealots or ~3 stalkers in army ahead of what Terran can have at the 6-7 minute mark (without mules), or an expansion about 40s ahead if Terran waits for the same mineral levels. Even if you account for mules, which make an entrance around 3.5 minutes in, Protoss is still ahead by ~200 minerals (counting probes). This assumes both players are going for an economic game. Only when full saturation occurs (for Protoss) does Terran begin to actually catch up, but it still takes another ~40s after before numbers even up. You lengthen the time to get mules and the number grows exponentially and not linearly. To suggest that chrono has "little effect" on worker production is a complete lie. Why even respond to such a bad post :D Nevermind I'll respond too, you know that in bw protoss didnt have chronoboost right ? I'm aware of that, thanks. =P I was merely commenting on the insinuation that chronoboost has little or no effect on workers. As for those calling for mules to ignore saturation levels, it's not that simple. Protoss and Zerg already get huge boosts to their economy before Terran, which causes Terran to be behind without the mule. Even after the mule hits, the cummulative resources gained far surpass what the Terran can achieve until minutes after saturation. It's only 3-4 workers prior to saturation by Terran (22-23 workers total) does Terran begin to catch up in total resources by about 220 minerals per mule. That's about 1.5 mules to bridge the gap in resources beyond the saturation point, or about 8.5 minutes into the game. My main point to take away from this is that it's a complicated system and simply nerfing mules, on any level, would drastically affect Terran's ability to both defend and execute pushes that are vital points in Terran metagame. I feel that the only reasonable time to address the relationship would be for an expansion, when in depth testing and analysis can be done.
Most "standard" Terran builds revolve around getting your OC at around 15 Supply, which, at that point in the game, Protoss/Zerg Macro mechanics have hardly kicked in enough to warrant complaint about super-saturation being necessary.
Furthermore, a nerf to MULEs regarding super-saturation does have a "side benefit" for Terrans. Since you won't be gaining a ridiculous income advantage due to MULEs, you won't mine out your bases as fast, meaning you'll be on equal footing for longer, which in turn leads to DIFFERENT timings evolving in the Terran metagame.
|
On August 23 2011 08:27 Penecks wrote:
Wow, I thought this thread was getting bad from the beginning, but the last half is just madness, people actually suggesting massive nerfs to mules and marines, non lifting ccs... do you really intend to break the game or are you just shouting out whatever comes to your heads now?
The game is already broken, people are proposing fixes.
If you don't think it's broken, well, enjoy your 20 Terran Code S?
|
If you can give us a good explanation for why you think we're breaking the game, maybe we'd stop!
|
The best protosses seem to keep their chrono boost high, and if the terran moves out they chrono a round of units or such, OR if the terran expands they focus like the next 6 on chrono boosting probes to catch up. It really depends on the map.
IDK, maybe banshees should take longer to build but cost less? Definitely tweaking marines is a horrible idea.
|
To this very day, I don't like how MULE's function in this game. Very uncreative idea from Blizzard that only encourages people to sack SCV's in early pushes because they can afford to do so with MULE's to maintain economy. Obviously, without MULE's, Terran would be at a huge disadvantage, I just wish there was some other mechanic that didn't magically make SCV's a lot more expandable for Terran players. As exciting as the longass Boxer-Rain game was at MLG, you can tell both players were just content on turtling and slowly phasing out SCV's in favor of only MULE's because they can afford to do so. That to me just speaks really silly.
|
On August 23 2011 08:25 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:20 Teiwaz wrote:On August 23 2011 07:43 Souli wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2011 07:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:16 okrane wrote:
Dumb question: why do marines need 45hp w/o combat shield and 55hp with combat shield later in the game?
How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? Terrans need marines for DPS, especially in TvZ. Once aoe enters the fray, 45hp marines die. Like really fast. The problem comes from the timing between lots of marines -> aoe enters the fray. 1-1-1 nails this timing. I suggest Blizzard may swap storm research with feedback. That wouldn't only make them equal to ghosts (storm - emp) but also maybe stop the push. Any comments? That would be a horrible decision IMO as it would make a huge timing push vZ possible - at least I think that. No, I really like the "no super saturation with MULES" idea WAY better - super saturation for the race that get's the most out of a mineral surplus, yeah, great idea Blizzard... Where's this mule stuff coming from? Mules causing a headache is just a meaningless side effect of the allin being so strong that it can trap you on one base. If you aren't trapped on one base mules are fine. Only solutions I can see are a) nerf marine dps at least temporarily (give it back with upgrade) or b) slow down Terran tech so Protoss can get aoe and a decent gateway force against mass marine with support.
The way I see it, the 111 push starts 2 or so mules after the mineral line has been saturated. How much is that? ~500 minerals worth of marines?
|
On August 23 2011 08:26 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:23 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 23 2011 08:14 Bagi wrote:On August 23 2011 08:01 VirgilSC2 wrote:
Ok, I'm going to make a suggestion in bold here so everyone sees it.
Redesign the MULE so that it doesn't ignore worker saturation levels.
Terran is now on EQUAL FOOTING in 1 base situations, rather than drastically ahead. (~28% at saturation levels I believe)
Terran therefore has less units with this push, specifically less Marines. Therefore it becomes a "balanced" build, meaning it's still deadly if it catches you off-guard, but if scouted ahead of time becomes feasible to hold in an equal skill situation. Changing the principles of how mules work is a far bigger change than this situation warrants. It would be a huge change to the terran economy, which would affect every single aspect of terran play. Probably comparable to giving the marine 5 damage and saying its fine because of the 1-1-1. What they need to do is find a way for protoss to crank out some units faster without breaking everything. Changing the principles of how MULEs work isn't specifically regarding the 1-1-1, it's regarding game balance as a whole. Like I said, this change would put Terran on EQUAL FOOTING (note: this is not synonymous with "behind") in 1 Base, or Equal Base situations, rather than drastically ahead. As it is, Terran players ALWAYS MULE unless FORCED to Scan or Supply Drop in almost every situation. Should this change be implemented, it's likely we'd see Terran players use more Scans and Supply Drops after saturation points are reached, as it MAY be more cost efficient than using a MULE on an already saturated base. In regard to the 1-1-1 (Marine/Tank/Banshee or Raven or both/SCV all-in) the effect this has deals with what many players, including oGsMC find to be the problem: The marine count. Lowering the Terran advantage in Mineral income that they have over Protoss players means LESS MINERAL DUMP UNITS, which in this particular build is the very potent and cost efficient Marine. You suggest finding a way for Protoss to crank out units faster without breaking everything, but I'm pretty sure this is almost the same thing: A way for Terran to be able to crank out less units, without breaking everything. Thats right. And as I remember the last statistics, terran are ahead of zerg and waaaaay ahead of protoss in win%. Nerfing terran is the logical choice.
Only in Korea are Terrans actually dominating (or Koreans competing in foreign tournaments). Elsewhere, Terran is actually about even with everybody else. Too much of ANY nerf could completely tilt Terran to the negative end in and outside of Korea.
|
On August 23 2011 08:27 Penecks wrote:
Wow, I thought this thread was getting bad from the beginning, but the last half is just madness, people actually suggesting massive nerfs to mules and marines, non lifting ccs... do you really intend to break the game or are you just shouting out whatever comes to your heads now?
I've spent my last 4-5 posts explaining WHY the nerf to MULEs would be good for game balance in general.
Not only does it take away the ridiculous advantage Terran players have in 1 Base or Equal Base situations, when dealing with this particular push in discussion, many high level Korean players find that the number of Marines it what makes this push so potent, reduce the huge advantage in mineral income, and you reduce the number of marines at this stage in the game without re-balancing any single combat unit.
|
On August 23 2011 08:28 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 08:17 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 07:58 cilinder007 wrote:On August 23 2011 07:52 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 07:05 H0i wrote:On August 23 2011 07:01 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with. You mean so that Terran can be even more behind in the economic game? The only thing keeping Terrans on even remote equal footing in the mid game economy is the use of the mule. In a general sense, Protoss should be 4-7 workers ahead by the 30 worker mark, which is then matched by the +3-4 workers per mule. You'd have to redesign the way the mule works altogether to balance out any positive or negative side effects. Could you explain to me why terran didn't have the mule in bw and still did fine? Terran units are way more cost efficient. Constant chrono boost on probes doesn't change as much as you think. I really shouldn't respond to this because of the sheer stupidity of comparing BW to SC2, but I will out of humor. Chrono boost effectively gives protoss an extra 10 workers every 17 boosts, or 0.588 workers per ~45 in game seconds (time to get 25 energy). By the 6-7 minute mark, that can yield a +5 worker difference, or a 195-225 minerals per minute difference, which in turn gives about a 750 mineral bonus to Protoss (or 500 if you subtract probe cost). ~4 zealots or ~3 stalkers in army ahead of what Terran can have at the 6-7 minute mark (without mules), or an expansion about 40s ahead if Terran waits for the same mineral levels. Even if you account for mules, which make an entrance around 3.5 minutes in, Protoss is still ahead by ~200 minerals (counting probes). This assumes both players are going for an economic game. Only when full saturation occurs (for Protoss) does Terran begin to actually catch up, but it still takes another ~40s after before numbers even up. You lengthen the time to get mules and the number grows exponentially and not linearly. To suggest that chrono has "little effect" on worker production is a complete lie. Why even respond to such a bad post :D Nevermind I'll respond too, you know that in bw protoss didnt have chronoboost right ? I'm aware of that, thanks. =P I was merely commenting on the insinuation that chronoboost has little or no effect on workers. As for those calling for mules to ignore saturation levels, it's not that simple. Protoss and Zerg already get huge boosts to their economy before Terran, which causes Terran to be behind without the mule. Even after the mule hits, the cummulative resources gained far surpass what the Terran can achieve until minutes after saturation. It's only 3-4 workers prior to saturation by Terran (22-23 workers total) does Terran begin to catch up in total resources by about 220 minerals per mule. That's about 1.5 mules to bridge the gap in resources beyond the saturation point, or about 8.5 minutes into the game. My main point to take away from this is that it's a complicated system and simply nerfing mules, on any level, would drastically affect Terran's ability to both defend and execute pushes that are vital points in Terran metagame. I feel that the only reasonable time to address the relationship would be for an expansion, when in depth testing and analysis can be done. Most "standard" Terran builds revolve around getting your OC at around 15 Supply, which, at that point in the game, Protoss/Zerg Macro mechanics have hardly kicked in enough to warrant complaint about super-saturation being necessary.Furthermore, a nerf to MULEs regarding super-saturation does have a "side benefit" for Terrans. Since you won't be gaining a ridiculous income advantage due to MULEs, you won't mine out your bases as fast, meaning you'll be on equal footing for longer, which in turn leads to DIFFERENT timings evolving in the Terran metagame.
I dont think so. Even if the gain is not enough until full saturation is achieved, mules can still get minerals back after saturation, but only a part of what they can do now. Or a terrran can choose to call down supply for 100 mins plus no lost mining time. Its not as great as a MULE, but still very good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
