EPTHow would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups?
Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 70
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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okrane
France265 Posts
How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? | ||
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Sabu113
United States11095 Posts
On August 23 2011 06:30 CryingPoo wrote: No. 1st Place on Korean GM is NOT Protoss. That Protoss got into GM with a map hack and it's been a huge issue in Korean community. So excluding him leaves mostly Terran's in this case Then it's clearly defendable if you scout it  | ||
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HawtLove
United States113 Posts
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Tommie
China658 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 23 2011 07:16 okrane wrote: Dumb question: why do marines need 45hp w/o combat shield and 55hp with combat shield later in the game? How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? Terrans need marines for DPS, especially in TvZ. Once aoe enters the fray, 45hp marines die. Like really fast. The problem comes from the timing between lots of marines -> aoe enters the fray. 1-1-1 nails this timing. | ||
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On August 23 2011 07:16 okrane wrote: Dumb question: why do marines need 45hp w/o combat shield and 55hp with combat shield later in the game? How would 10hp less to marines change the match-ups? It requires an additional 2 attacks from Zerglings to kill them, and they can survive 6 attacks from a Zealot as opposed to 5. Basically, Marines fill the voids until you can produce only Marauders. Example would be Major killing off some Marines against Incontrol from Columbus BECAUSE Marines are not that good late game. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On August 23 2011 07:18 HawtLove wrote: Weren't there threads EXACTLY like this for the marauder a few months back. Why does this and damn near every forum keep going through the same cycles of screaming imba then shutting up as game trends change and new strats develop. Give it time, people, it's fixed so many would-be issues in this game already. Someone will figure it out. In my opinion marauders are very strong yes and maybe deserve a bit of whining, but this build really really deserves it. The reason this is so strong is because protoss was nerfed so many times. Zealot times, warpgate timings, amulet, void ray speed, range and damage, etc. If protoss can be nerfed when other people whine, instead of letting the metagame develop, then why not nerf terran now hm? Or revert all those protoss nerfs and allow the metagame to develop and deal with them? | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On August 23 2011 06:26 Toadvine wrote: You have like 15 posts in that huge KA whine thread that reached 70 pages around the time Blizzard removed it, arguing in favor of its removal. Why wasn't letting the game play out the preferable option back then? Besides, at the moment, this is probably the single most powerful all-in since SC2's release. Maybe the 3 Gate VR from before the VR nerf would be contender. At the GSL level Protoss literally doesn't win against this build unless the Terran makes a huge mistake. So yeah, at the moment it is very much a free win on that level of play. You have either (a) a ridiculous good memory, or (b) some pretty vigilant search skills. Eitherway, I cannot help but give you mad props for that character argument. I believe the majority of the Protoss community was advising T and Z's of the world to l2p at the time the KA was nerfed? No? I could be wrong, of course. I actually cannot think if a single Terran unit that has not been nerfed since release. The Banshee, maybe? You know, I believe any balance argument pretty much follows the same format: [My Race = UP, your race = IMBA, (IF suggested nerf affects "YOUR RACE" then SUPPORT, else "TROLL RAGE ON TL"] Sitting on the sidelines are the ones who say, "let the metagame balance it out." I think a play encompassing the entire tech-tree is a pretty difficult thing to nerf, but who knows. Maybe it is wildly imba. Let me go plug it into my imba calculator and tell you. How about an on-screen warning for all the imba plays? Yeah. I like that. "Terran has constructed a barrack, a factory and a Starport. Prepare." "Protoss has begun construction of a pylon. Prepare." "There's a nydus worm in your base. Prepare." Haha! Some of the nerfs and buffs have been fine, others have been terrible, but "balancing" a game like this (also known as population management) must be such a nightmare ... | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On August 23 2011 07:11 aksfjh wrote: Yea, except mid game approaches around the 7-9 minute mark and requires the use of mules to even get to. Think of it this way, the first few (1-4) mules are the boon at allows you to either attack or expand, on top of having the ability to defend. Without that, Terran has only the resources required to tech, defend, OR expand. It's the equivalent of taking away sentries until robo/stargate/twilight tech. There would be no safe expand build for Protoss in that scenario, like removing the mule from Terran early game. Removing the mule would break the game. Terrans do need mules to catch up on mining until they saturate the mineral line. Obviously they need to catch up, because protoss and zerg can make workers faster. BUT, the problem with the mule comes from it's ability to "super saturate" the mineral line. Until the mineral line is saturated (at the beginning of the game, or after each expand), terran needs the mule to act as an equalizer for the additional workers the other two fractions have. And thats the + ~3-4 everyone is talking about. However, once the mineralline is saturated, mules give terran an aprox. 25% mineral mining advantage per mineral line. That's why terran can make so many marines, tanks and banshees of one base. If you look at the income tab in a game, terrans usually have around 900 on one base with mules, whereas P/Z have ~700. At this point we can no longer talk about the mule as an equalizer, but rather as a huge advantage. Therefore my proposal would be to make mules unable to super saturate a mineral line. Once the line is saturated, they should be waiting in line for harvesting, just like any other worker. This would solve 111. | ||
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NecrosTheSecond
Denmark116 Posts
KA would never be out in time for this push lol This might sound like whining but i have personally faced this allin more than 20 times on ladder in different variation and never ever held a single one of them.. I've tried many openings and unit mixes but none really worked out for me. I dont believe a protoss would ever really hold this build from someone of an otherwise equal skill level unless he makes a major mistake (Actually held it once because he forgot PDD, but he proceeded to turtle and mass up with an expo for the second push, and i couldn't hold). It doesnt take zero skill to perform, but there is a clear difference between holding and performing it, skillwise (Which shouldn't be for real imo) Also every time i lose to it i rage :/ Terrans please stop using it, it's bad for my health. To all of those saying it's too early to nerf and we need to play around a bit with it, i'd say nah, been around for a good month or more actively on ladder, just within the few weeks exploded, and i have yet to hold it, and i believe so many others have trouble with it also. Myself.... i think im gonna book a lesson at my coach specifically for how he deals with this, even hard for him as well | ||
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Sabu113
United States11095 Posts
KA removal is nothing like whatever nerfs (?) were applied to the banshee. It's really amusing that at the height of complaining we were seeing balanced win %... | ||
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Kamais_Ookin
Canada4218 Posts
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On August 23 2011 04:09 kheldorin wrote: Haha that game was a rollercoaster. Casters: Oh wow MC blinked into the base and destroyed a lot of units. Nice storms. He dodged that EMP by bringin the HT back into the prism. Storm Drops. Puma's drops all denied. Denied the planetary fortress from going up. Up 2 more bases. More nice storms and feedback. Puma wasted EMP on sniping observer. Oh no, MC lost that warp prism. EMP hits. Oh no MC lost. Everyone was so shocked and tried to rationalize it. They blamed it on upgrades when it was in fact 2/2 vs 3/2. Lulz. | ||
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Calach
United States58 Posts
anyways is it the actual 1/1/1 ALL IN that's considered imba? or is it the 1/1/1 tank marine banshee army composition that's imba? could someone please clear this up for me? | ||
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Souli
Germany10 Posts
On August 23 2011 07:20 Yaotzin wrote: Terrans need marines for DPS, especially in TvZ. Once aoe enters the fray, 45hp marines die. Like really fast. The problem comes from the timing between lots of marines -> aoe enters the fray. 1-1-1 nails this timing. I suggest Blizzard may swap storm research with feedback. That wouldn't only make them equal to ghosts (storm - emp) but also maybe stop the push. Any comments? | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On August 23 2011 07:43 atomicwedgie wrote: hey guys i'm a little late to the party haha :/ anyways is it the actual 1/1/1 ALL IN that's considered imba? or is it the 1/1/1 tank marine banshee army composition that's imba? could someone please clear this up for me? The pros are saying the 1/1/1 all in is maybe imba. The people on this thread are trying to claim any 1/1/1 is OP. I mean talking about KA and stuff is ridiculous. That's way beyond the timing of this. | ||
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heroofcanton
United States167 Posts
I agree that the major problem does come down to a coinflip, and terran is so hard to scout they could be doing any number of things. I go back to that argument idra had with day9 on SotG about zerg scouting, and how you don't know what they are doing until its at your front door. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On August 23 2011 07:05 H0i wrote: Could you explain to me why terran didn't have the mule in bw and still did fine? Terran units are way more cost efficient. Constant chrono boost on probes doesn't change as much as you think. I really shouldn't respond to this because of the sheer stupidity of comparing BW to SC2, but I will out of humor. Chrono boost effectively gives protoss an extra 10 workers every 17 boosts, or 0.588 workers per ~45 in game seconds (time to get 25 energy). By the 6-7 minute mark, that can yield a +5 worker difference, or a 195-225 minerals per minute difference, which in turn gives about a 750 mineral bonus to Protoss (or 500 if you subtract probe cost). ~4 zealots or ~3 stalkers in army ahead of what Terran can have at the 6-7 minute mark (without mules), or an expansion about 40s ahead if Terran waits for the same mineral levels. Even if you account for mules, which make an entrance around 3.5 minutes in, Protoss is still ahead by ~200 minerals (counting probes). This assumes both players are going for an economic game. Only when full saturation occurs (for Protoss) does Terran begin to actually catch up, but it still takes another ~40s after before numbers even up. You lengthen the time to get mules and the number grows exponentially and not linearly. To suggest that chrono has "little effect" on worker production is a complete lie. | ||
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NecrosTheSecond
Denmark116 Posts
idk for sure.. it just seems kinda unfair to me that you can really never be certain if they expanded or not without investing in an observer or halucination (unless they already floated their expo down). I mean sure you can count marines and everything, but its not always that easy, and he can just be hiding his marauders or whatever further in his base. | ||
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NecrosTheSecond
Denmark116 Posts
On August 23 2011 07:52 aksfjh wrote: I really shouldn't respond to this because of the sheer stupidity of comparing BW to SC2, but I will out of humor. Chrono boost effectively gives protoss an extra 10 workers every 17 boosts, or 0.588 workers per ~45 in game seconds (time to get 25 energy). By the 6-7 minute mark, that can yield a +5 worker difference, or a 195-225 minerals per minute difference, which in turn gives about a 750 mineral bonus to Protoss (or 500 if you subtract probe cost). ~4 zealots or ~3 stalkers in army ahead of what Terran can have at the 6-7 minute mark (without mules), or an expansion about 40s ahead if Terran waits for the same mineral levels. Even if you account for mules, which make an entrance around 3.5 minutes in, Protoss is still ahead by ~200 minerals (counting probes). This assumes both players are going for an economic game. Only when full saturation occurs (for Protoss) does Terran begin to actually catch up, but it still takes another ~40s after before numbers even up. You lengthen the time to get mules and the number grows exponentially and not linearly. To suggest that chrono has "little effect" on worker production is a complete lie. Ever heard of the risk of continously chronoing probes? Not spending chrono on either units or warpgate is a huge risk. | ||
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