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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 06:26 JelleSlaets wrote:
Just give Blizzard some time on this. They have already explained how they use bnet statistics to get weighted statistics based on skill / match-up. They also said that they would do emergency patches when the balance all of a sudden shifts towards a side. Meanwhile, I'm sure people will come up with some strat that can throw terran of containing, whether it be void rays or warp prism harass.
I'm glad they are in charge of balance and not the community.
Stats only tell them there's *a* problem. They still need to figure out or hear from the community what exactly the problem *is*. Threads like this are more about narrowing down precisely why it is so powerful, not that it is and its a problem; anyone with a clue knows that already (and the stats reflect it with an utterly pitiful PvT rate that is probably still headed downwards).
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On August 23 2011 06:11 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:06 TimeSpiral wrote:
All we can do is hope the developers let this thing play out for a little while.
That is what is needed.
Let the metagame balance out this little ruffle. It is far from a free win, but it is a potent all-in (which there are many in SC2). Too bad no terran had this mindset, when 7 range voids, flux vanes and KA were still in the game. :-(
Tell me about it; people have extremely selective memory about balance QQing.
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Okay I have a theory for a safe protoss build. It is 1 gate stargate, into 3 gates off 1 base. Basically you hold potential 2 raxes with zealot/sentry. First chronoboosted phoenix gives you a very quick scout. So If you see 1-1-1, then start a robotics for the needed observer, and keep making phoenixes. Then proceed to expo (natural or cross map expo, doesn't matter). Now comes the fun part.
What the koreans worry about is losing the 1 base vs 1 base battle. Marine siege tank banshee is the best composition you can have, and mules give them an edge. Thus they claim you need an early expo to get an advantage in econ.
What I propose is being aggressive at the bottom of their ramp with 3 gate units and phoenix. With FF, he won't dare come down his ramp. What terrans do in this case is 1) wait for siege mode 2) use banshee to snipe sentry. This is why we go stargate, to guard the sentry! Banshees won't dare come near your sentries with 3 phoenixes ready to snipe it. By this time he will be antsy to move out, because you are getting your expo up, so keep perma-forcefielding his ramp.
Okay now what about siege mode? Terrans will just hug the forcefield and siege up. Are you going to sacrifice a sentry each time you want to FF? As long as terran has 3 siege tanks, that sentry is going to get 1 shotted! All you have to do in this case, is send out a single zealot to draw tank fire, while getting the FF with a sentry from the side. If your micro is good you can even save the zealot. If you want to be flashy, get a warp prism from your robotics (you have it already since you need obs) and use drop micro to get the FF off. Zealot drop -> Sentry drop -> FF -> pick up sentry -> pick up zealot.
As long as this is done perfectly, I believe the protoss will come out ahead. Only thing I can think of is medivacs. But on maps where the rim of your base is very small, a bunch of phoenixes/stalkers patroling around is enough to stop any elevator antics.
Anything else the terran can do? Sure there's always going to be options, but for every option, I can tell you something the protoss can do to counter it. For example... bunker low ramp? Just bust him with 3 gate units.
Please give me some critique, I want to see if it is really worth practicing such immaculate micro.
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On August 23 2011 06:33 W2 wrote:
Okay I have a theory for a safe protoss build. It is 1 gate stargate, into 3 gates off 1 base. Basically you hold potential 2 raxes with zealot/sentry. First chronoboosted phoenix gives you a very quick scout. So If you see 1-1-1, then start a robotics for the needed observer, and keep making phoenixes. Then proceed to expo (natural or cross map expo, doesn't matter). Now comes the fun part.
What the koreans worry about is losing the 1 base vs 1 base battle. Marine siege tank banshee is the best composition you can have, and mules give them an edge. Thus they claim you need an early expo to get an advantage in econ.
What I propose is being aggressive at the bottom of their ramp with 3 gate units and phoenix. With FF, he won't dare come down his ramp. What terrans do in this case is 1) wait for siege mode 2) use banshee to snipe sentry. This is why we go stargate, to guard the sentry! Banshees won't dare come near your sentries with 3 phoenixes ready to snipe it. By this time he will be antsy to move out, because you are getting your expo up, so keep perma-forcefielding his ramp.
Okay now what about siege mode? Terrans will just hug the forcefield and siege up. Are you going to sacrifice a sentry each time you want to FF? As long as terran has 3 siege tanks, that sentry is going to get 1 shotted! All you have to do in this case, is send out a single zealot to draw tank fire, while getting the FF with a sentry from the side. If your micro is good you can even save the zealot. If you want to be flashy, get a warp prism from your robotics (you have it already since you need obs) and use drop micro to get the FF off. Zealot drop -> Sentry drop -> FF -> pick up sentry -> pick up zealot.
As long as this is done perfectly, I believe the protoss will come out ahead. Only thing I can think of is medivacs. But on maps where the rim of your base is very small, a bunch of phoenixes/stalkers patroling around is enough to stop any elevator antics.
Anything else the terran can do? Sure there's always going to be options, but for every option, I can tell you something the protoss can do to counter it. For example... bunker low ramp? Just bust him with 3 gate units.
Please give me some critique, I want to see if it is really worth practicing such immaculate micro.
Look at my Excel workout, your theory off one base can not work out in a given resource and time.
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On August 23 2011 06:33 W2 wrote:
Okay I have a theory for a safe protoss build. It is 1 gate stargate, into 3 gates off 1 base. Basically you hold potential 2 raxes with zealot/sentry.
This is the (first  ) stumbling point. 1gate stargate can generally only hold 2rax if it's void first and you use the void to defend as well. See for example Sage vs sC in GSTL. Barely, barely holds the 2rax using his void and goes on to win.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 23 2011 06:26 JelleSlaets wrote:
1st place on Korean GM ladder is Protoss.
2nd place on China GM ladder is Protoss
3rd place on SEA GM ladder is Protoss
Some players figured out how to beat it. Or did they all of a sudden stop using effective strats on ladder?
Just give Blizzard some time on this. They have already explained how they use bnet statistics to get weighted statistics based on skill / match-up. They also said that they would do emergency patches when the balance all of a sudden shifts towards a side. Meanwhile, I'm sure people will come up with some strat that can throw terran of containing, whether it be void rays or warp prism harass.
I'm glad they are in charge of balance and not the community.
togo from the korean server is a maphacker (san and some other korean pro have said that)
people are more concerned about the 1-base 1-1-1 build than the matchup itself
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I think this is a problem that players should solve, not Blizzard. Saviour was every Protoss player's worst nightmare for a lot longer than this build has been.
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On August 23 2011 06:35 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:33 W2 wrote:
Okay I have a theory for a safe protoss build. It is 1 gate stargate, into 3 gates off 1 base. Basically you hold potential 2 raxes with zealot/sentry. This is the (first ) stumbling point. 1gate stargate can generally only hold 2rax if it's void first and you use the void to defend as well. See for example Sage vs sC in GSTL. Barely, barely holds the 2rax using his void and goes on to win.
and if he brings scvs i think it just outright loses. at least in my experience. (disclaimer: not a pro player)
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Did Saviour use a 1base allin that should in theory be far simpler to "solve" than an overall style?
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On August 23 2011 06:35 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:33 W2 wrote:
Okay I have a theory for a safe protoss build. It is 1 gate stargate, into 3 gates off 1 base. Basically you hold potential 2 raxes with zealot/sentry. This is the (first ) stumbling point. 1gate stargate can generally only hold 2rax if it's void first and you use the void to defend as well. See for example Sage vs sC in GSTL. Barely, barely holds the 2rax using his void and goes on to win.
Okay then go 2 gate stargate, or even 3 gate stargate. That should hold 2 rax fine. Actually TBH I think it really depends on how many scv's the terran sends out. And if he doesn't send any scvs (he probably will send 2 max seeing empty natural) I think units out of 1 gate are enough if you go zeal sentry zeal. maybe pull 3-4 probes if you want to be extra safe and completely sandwich him against the forcefield. Thanks for your input man.
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On August 23 2011 06:32 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:26 JelleSlaets wrote:
Just give Blizzard some time on this. They have already explained how they use bnet statistics to get weighted statistics based on skill / match-up. They also said that they would do emergency patches when the balance all of a sudden shifts towards a side. Meanwhile, I'm sure people will come up with some strat that can throw terran of containing, whether it be void rays or warp prism harass.
I'm glad they are in charge of balance and not the community. Stats only tell them there's *a* problem. They still need to figure out or hear from the community what exactly the problem *is*. Threads like this are more about narrowing down precisely why it is so powerful, not that it is and its a problem; anyone with a clue knows that already.
First stats need to show there actually is a problem. (which we don't even know yet)
When they do, I don't think they will be looking at communities filled with platinum playing Stream watching biased players for suggestions how Zealots should have their base speed increased and mules have to be removed from the game.
I'm sure they have the people capable of analyzing replays from top players and connections with those top players to get a good view of the situation.
That's why any balance whine is basicly is big waste of time, because pretty much all it does is get attention from either terran players or protoss players thinking they have to yell the loudest and maybe someone will hear it. Any post made by a serious player like Tyler / MC is then quickly dismissed, because said platinum player can list 2 replays, or saw a game on MLG proving xxx.
It's not just for this strategy, but any strategy. And it may well be that Blizzard decides to take action. But I'm sure it will not be because of these threads. And that's a good thing.
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people complain taht its ustoppable, if you would have a close eye on the puma mc replays u would see that mc fucked up in both allin games in both enagagements, for exmaple wrong focus fire clumping up, boosing eco after holding teh first allin, etc etc
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On August 23 2011 06:41 mEtRoSG wrote:
people complain taht its ustoppable, if you would have a close eye on the puma mc replays u would see that mc fucked up in both allin games in both enagagements, for exmaple wrong focus fire clumping up, boosing eco after holding teh first allin, etc etc
People are not saying it's unstoppable, they are saying it's overpowered.
You could stop 5RR in 2010 by opening blind roach, but that was really bad because you died to a marauder follow-up.
It was still overpowered, and nerfed, but not unstoppable.
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On August 23 2011 06:41 mEtRoSG wrote:
people complain taht its ustoppable, if you would have a close eye on the puma mc replays u would see that mc fucked up in both allin games in both enagagements, for exmaple wrong focus fire clumping up, boosing eco after holding teh first allin, etc etc
puma vs mc isn't the only 1/1/1 occurrence
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On August 23 2011 06:37 branflakes14 wrote:
I think this is a problem that players should solve, not Blizzard. Saviour was every Protoss player's worst nightmare for a lot longer than this build has been.
OMG! Plz be quiet, if you have no idea what you are talking about!
Saviour wasnt a 1 base all in abuser, who relied on overpowered builds to destroy his enemies. He was one of the most intelligent players in SCBW history. His strengths were an impeccable game sense, multi pronged attacks, counterattacks, stalling (lurkers), feinting pressure, and so on.
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On August 23 2011 06:40 JelleSlaets wrote:
First stats need to show there actually is a problem. (which we don't even know yet)
PvT stats in Korea (even Blizzard cares more about Korea ) are horrifying.
When they do, I don't think they will be looking at communities filled with platinum playing Stream watching biased players for suggestions how Zealots should have their base speed increased and mules have to be removed from the game.
No but they'll listen to Korean pros like MVP and community figures like Gisado. Stuff like this OP.
That's why any balance whine is basicly is big waste of time, because pretty much all it does is get attention from either terran players or protoss players thinking they have to yell the loudest and maybe someone will hear it. Any post made by a serious player like Tyler / MC is then quickly dismissed, because said platinum player can list 2 replays, or saw a game on MLG proving xxx.
Tyler is dismissed because he's not a top player - and more importantly made a post which doesn't address the 1/1/1 at all. MC was quoted from his twitter commenting on why it's so strong.
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On August 23 2011 06:34 CryingPoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:33 W2 wrote:
Okay I have a theory for a safe protoss build. It is 1 gate stargate, into 3 gates off 1 base. Basically you hold potential 2 raxes with zealot/sentry. First chronoboosted phoenix gives you a very quick scout. So If you see 1-1-1, then start a robotics for the needed observer, and keep making phoenixes. Then proceed to expo (natural or cross map expo, doesn't matter). Now comes the fun part.
What the koreans worry about is losing the 1 base vs 1 base battle. Marine siege tank banshee is the best composition you can have, and mules give them an edge. Thus they claim you need an early expo to get an advantage in econ.
What I propose is being aggressive at the bottom of their ramp with 3 gate units and phoenix. With FF, he won't dare come down his ramp. What terrans do in this case is 1) wait for siege mode 2) use banshee to snipe sentry. This is why we go stargate, to guard the sentry! Banshees won't dare come near your sentries with 3 phoenixes ready to snipe it. By this time he will be antsy to move out, because you are getting your expo up, so keep perma-forcefielding his ramp.
Okay now what about siege mode? Terrans will just hug the forcefield and siege up. Are you going to sacrifice a sentry each time you want to FF? As long as terran has 3 siege tanks, that sentry is going to get 1 shotted! All you have to do in this case, is send out a single zealot to draw tank fire, while getting the FF with a sentry from the side. If your micro is good you can even save the zealot. If you want to be flashy, get a warp prism from your robotics (you have it already since you need obs) and use drop micro to get the FF off. Zealot drop -> Sentry drop -> FF -> pick up sentry -> pick up zealot.
As long as this is done perfectly, I believe the protoss will come out ahead. Only thing I can think of is medivacs. But on maps where the rim of your base is very small, a bunch of phoenixes/stalkers patroling around is enough to stop any elevator antics.
Anything else the terran can do? Sure there's always going to be options, but for every option, I can tell you something the protoss can do to counter it. For example... bunker low ramp? Just bust him with 3 gate units.
Please give me some critique, I want to see if it is really worth practicing such immaculate micro. Look at my Excel workout, your theory off one base can not work out in a given resource and time.
Do you mind summarizing what your excel workout entails? Thanks.
My theory does not involve winning with mass units, it involves winning by maneuvering... So lets say 3-4 sentries with energy, 3+ phoenix, and the necessary observers? Plus warp prism and stalkers if necessary, judging by how brave/rash the terran is. By my experience this is cutting it close but still doable.
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On August 23 2011 06:26 JelleSlaets wrote:
1st place on Korean GM ladder is Protoss.
2nd place on China GM ladder is Protoss
3rd place on SEA GM ladder is Protoss
Some players figured out how to beat it. Or did they all of a sudden stop using effective strats on ladder?
Just give Blizzard some time on this. They have already explained how they use bnet statistics to get weighted statistics based on skill / match-up. They also said that they would do emergency patches when the balance all of a sudden shifts towards a side. Meanwhile, I'm sure people will come up with some strat that can throw terran of containing, whether it be void rays or warp prism harass.
I'm glad they are in charge of balance and not the community.
Your logic, statistical analysis, (or lack thereof) and knowledge of this all-in are laughable.
Void rays tend to do pretty terribly against a build that often features 3 barracks constantly producing marines. More importantly, if your plan is to "throw off" your opposing player from his strategy rather than to counter it, you're simply trying to get lucky.
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On August 23 2011 06:40 JelleSlaets wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:32 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 06:26 JelleSlaets wrote:
Just give Blizzard some time on this. They have already explained how they use bnet statistics to get weighted statistics based on skill / match-up. They also said that they would do emergency patches when the balance all of a sudden shifts towards a side. Meanwhile, I'm sure people will come up with some strat that can throw terran of containing, whether it be void rays or warp prism harass.
I'm glad they are in charge of balance and not the community. Stats only tell them there's *a* problem. They still need to figure out or hear from the community what exactly the problem *is*. Threads like this are more about narrowing down precisely why it is so powerful, not that it is and its a problem; anyone with a clue knows that already. First stats need to show there actually is a problem. (which we don't even know yet) When they do, I don't think they will be looking at communities filled with platinum playing Stream watching biased players for suggestions how Zealots should have their base speed increased and mules have to be removed from the game. I'm sure they have the people capable of analyzing replays from top players and connections with those top players to get a good view of the situation. That's why any balance whine is basicly is big waste of time, because pretty much all it does is get attention from either terran players or protoss players thinking they have to yell the loudest and maybe someone will hear it. Any post made by a serious player like Tyler / MC is then quickly dismissed, because said platinum player can list 2 replays, or saw a game on MLG proving xxx. It's not just for this strategy, but any strategy. And it may well be that Blizzard decides to take action. But I'm sure it will not be because of these threads. And that's a good thing.
Sure it's a waste of time but it's venting too so maybe not. I don't even think tyler or any other american pro has an effect on balance discussions It all seems to come out of Korea scene from what I've observed. Maka getting VR nerfed after talking with David. MC getting Thor nerfed and so on. That's the highest level so blizzard pays attention there and gets input from there with serious discussion with top players.
I also think change is coming when you have top terrans even saying it's virtually unbeatable.
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On August 23 2011 06:44 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:37 branflakes14 wrote:
I think this is a problem that players should solve, not Blizzard. Saviour was every Protoss player's worst nightmare for a lot longer than this build has been. OMG! Plz be quiet, if you have no idea what you are talking about! Saviour wasnt a 1 base all in abuser, who relied on overpowered builds to destroy his enemies. He was one of the most intelligent players in SCBW history. His strengths were an impeccable game sense, multi pronged attacks, counterattacks, stalling (lurkers), fainting pressure, and so on.
not to mention savior was a professional player, not almost every single terran I've faced on ladder for the past week and a half -.-
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EPT
