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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 06:45 W2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:34 CryingPoo wrote:On August 23 2011 06:33 W2 wrote:
Okay I have a theory for a safe protoss build. It is 1 gate stargate, into 3 gates off 1 base. Basically you hold potential 2 raxes with zealot/sentry. First chronoboosted phoenix gives you a very quick scout. So If you see 1-1-1, then start a robotics for the needed observer, and keep making phoenixes. Then proceed to expo (natural or cross map expo, doesn't matter). Now comes the fun part.
What the koreans worry about is losing the 1 base vs 1 base battle. Marine siege tank banshee is the best composition you can have, and mules give them an edge. Thus they claim you need an early expo to get an advantage in econ.
What I propose is being aggressive at the bottom of their ramp with 3 gate units and phoenix. With FF, he won't dare come down his ramp. What terrans do in this case is 1) wait for siege mode 2) use banshee to snipe sentry. This is why we go stargate, to guard the sentry! Banshees won't dare come near your sentries with 3 phoenixes ready to snipe it. By this time he will be antsy to move out, because you are getting your expo up, so keep perma-forcefielding his ramp.
Okay now what about siege mode? Terrans will just hug the forcefield and siege up. Are you going to sacrifice a sentry each time you want to FF? As long as terran has 3 siege tanks, that sentry is going to get 1 shotted! All you have to do in this case, is send out a single zealot to draw tank fire, while getting the FF with a sentry from the side. If your micro is good you can even save the zealot. If you want to be flashy, get a warp prism from your robotics (you have it already since you need obs) and use drop micro to get the FF off. Zealot drop -> Sentry drop -> FF -> pick up sentry -> pick up zealot.
As long as this is done perfectly, I believe the protoss will come out ahead. Only thing I can think of is medivacs. But on maps where the rim of your base is very small, a bunch of phoenixes/stalkers patroling around is enough to stop any elevator antics.
Anything else the terran can do? Sure there's always going to be options, but for every option, I can tell you something the protoss can do to counter it. For example... bunker low ramp? Just bust him with 3 gate units.
Please give me some critique, I want to see if it is really worth practicing such immaculate micro. Look at my Excel workout, your theory off one base can not work out in a given resource and time. Do you mind summarizing what your excel workout entails? Thanks. My theory does not involve winning with mass units, it involves winning by maneuvering... So lets say 3-4 sentries with energy, 3+ phoenix, and the necessary observers? Plus warp prism and stalkers if necessary, judging by how brave/rash the terran is. By my experience this is cutting it close but still doable.
http://i.imgur.com/vdxrO.jpg
Even taking out time where things are done simultaneously - resource factor does indicate that having 3-4 sentires, 3+ phoenix + an observer + robo + stargate IS NOT POSSIBLE AT ALL
I would like to stress that time constraint should be ignored as 2 colossus is possible at 9:00 mark but that is only possible when no gas units are made until the first production of a colossus which would P very vulnerable (it's equalivent to 15 Expo)
So to conclude, without building anything (only Gate+Cyber+Warp Research) with optimal number of workers (2 on each mineral patch, 3 on each gas) - Protoss obtains 3.8k Mineral 1.35k Gas - so work backwards to see if you have enough resources to do what you are saying. You will see that it's not possible at 9:00 mark
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On August 23 2011 06:37 branflakes14 wrote:
I think this is a problem that players should solve, not Blizzard. Saviour was every Protoss player's worst nightmare for a lot longer than this build has been.
You were the guy that suggested fleet beacon tech as the counter right?
EDIT: Ah yes you were..
On August 22 2011 03:03 branflakes14 wrote:
I think exploring Fleet Bacon tech should be the top priority for Protoss players at the moment since it's just about all there really is left. Remember, while Carrier damage output is quite frankly pretty shitty and they can take a long time to get, Interceptors have 3.2 health per 1 mineral (the nearest any other unit has is the Zealot with 1.5 per mineral) and seriously mess up Marine AI if they can't reach the Carrier (which has a maximum of 14 range). Interceptors are practically a huge cheap damage shield against Marines.
Interceptors as "huge, cheap, damage shields" vs Marines... interesting.... hmmm
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On August 23 2011 05:19 Raid wrote:
I don't think we should nerf terran if this is an issue with TvP they should just give protoss a buff that will help them defend this push. I don't think this push is unstoppable and I just think people need more experience playing against it because honestly there has been a lot of strats that looked unstoppable but fizzled out like 2 rax all ins and what not.
Too many people have said this.
With all the other all-ins that have turned out to be OK eventually (of which there have actually been surprisingly few, what with 4gate, 2rax, 5rax reaper etc getting nerfed) there has been a clear problem.
Example: 2rax, Terran could get the bunkers up too quickly and Zerg couldn't break the contain.
Example: 4gate and variants vs Zerg: scouting for it was thought to be too hard.
Example: 4gate in PvP: Warp Gate research came into play too early, negating defenders advantage.
With the 1-1-1 all-in (although as PuMa showed, it isn't actually all-in...), you can scout it and engage it well and still die horribly. There is no Protoss build which beats it straight up AT ALL, let alone a viable one taking into account other potential Terran builds.
The problems are all compounded ones: 1) MULEs, 2) Terran unit efficiency and variety, 3) Map size.
MULEs allow Terran to mine fine off one base with half as many workers as Protoss. Unit efficiency is obvious, for their cost Marines are the highest DPS units in the game, and Map size because it doesn't work too well on large maps like Terminus. However, large maps are bad to have all the time for other reasons, so that can be ignored for now.
Oh, also, this build has been around since beta, has recently been refined and looks unstoppable, even against the best players in the world. I smell patch incoming.
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On August 23 2011 05:51 Raid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 05:20 ToastieNL wrote:On August 23 2011 05:19 Raid wrote:
I don't think we should nerf terran if this is an issue with TvP they should just give protoss a buff that will help them defend this push. I don't think this push is unstoppable and I just think people need more experience playing against it because honestly there has been a lot of strats that looked unstoppable but fizzled out like 2 rax all ins and what not. Suggest a possible buff Please keep the fragilety of ZvP atm in mind, and remember that it may not buff 4 gate (thus, nothing on Gateway units) gogogo! Well, the thing is its going to be a huge nerf if we go after 1/1/1 because that its the entire terran tech tree and I am not sure how they would go about nerfing an entire tech tree. This 1/1/1 business is not that big a deal because I believe protoss have the tools to stop this. Like imo fast phoenix play is very potent considering your only having marines off 1 rax and your only other aa is from starport which you want to spend all your gas into either banshee/tank stuff. Or possibly hittng a timing with warp prisms like white ra does.
the problem is that we need a way to react to it. i'm so tired of people telling me stupid shit like stargate openings beat it. I'M NOT GOING STARGATE EVERY GAME! if there was some way we could find out that they're doing it and have enough time to react with a stargate than that would be fine. blind counters aren't the answer. Also, they wouldn't have to nerf the entire tech tree, they just need to nerf one thing. like if they nerfed (this is only example) banshees, then we could make less stalks that just get eaten by tanks anyways, or if they nerfed tanks than we could make less zealots or something and have more supply to deal with banshees.
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with.
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On August 23 2011 06:47 CryingPoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:45 W2 wrote:On August 23 2011 06:34 CryingPoo wrote:On August 23 2011 06:33 W2 wrote:
Okay I have a theory for a safe protoss build. It is 1 gate stargate, into 3 gates off 1 base. Basically you hold potential 2 raxes with zealot/sentry. First chronoboosted phoenix gives you a very quick scout. So If you see 1-1-1, then start a robotics for the needed observer, and keep making phoenixes. Then proceed to expo (natural or cross map expo, doesn't matter). Now comes the fun part.
What the koreans worry about is losing the 1 base vs 1 base battle. Marine siege tank banshee is the best composition you can have, and mules give them an edge. Thus they claim you need an early expo to get an advantage in econ.
What I propose is being aggressive at the bottom of their ramp with 3 gate units and phoenix. With FF, he won't dare come down his ramp. What terrans do in this case is 1) wait for siege mode 2) use banshee to snipe sentry. This is why we go stargate, to guard the sentry! Banshees won't dare come near your sentries with 3 phoenixes ready to snipe it. By this time he will be antsy to move out, because you are getting your expo up, so keep perma-forcefielding his ramp.
Okay now what about siege mode? Terrans will just hug the forcefield and siege up. Are you going to sacrifice a sentry each time you want to FF? As long as terran has 3 siege tanks, that sentry is going to get 1 shotted! All you have to do in this case, is send out a single zealot to draw tank fire, while getting the FF with a sentry from the side. If your micro is good you can even save the zealot. If you want to be flashy, get a warp prism from your robotics (you have it already since you need obs) and use drop micro to get the FF off. Zealot drop -> Sentry drop -> FF -> pick up sentry -> pick up zealot.
As long as this is done perfectly, I believe the protoss will come out ahead. Only thing I can think of is medivacs. But on maps where the rim of your base is very small, a bunch of phoenixes/stalkers patroling around is enough to stop any elevator antics.
Anything else the terran can do? Sure there's always going to be options, but for every option, I can tell you something the protoss can do to counter it. For example... bunker low ramp? Just bust him with 3 gate units.
Please give me some critique, I want to see if it is really worth practicing such immaculate micro. Look at my Excel workout, your theory off one base can not work out in a given resource and time. Do you mind summarizing what your excel workout entails? Thanks. My theory does not involve winning with mass units, it involves winning by maneuvering... So lets say 3-4 sentries with energy, 3+ phoenix, and the necessary observers? Plus warp prism and stalkers if necessary, judging by how brave/rash the terran is. By my experience this is cutting it close but still doable. http://i.imgur.com/vdxrO.jpgEven taking out time where things are done simultaneously - resource factor does indicate that having 3-4 sentires, 3+ phoenix + an observer + robo + stargate IS NOT POSSIBLE AT ALL I would like to stress that time constraint should be ignored as 2 colossus is possible at 9:00 mark but that is only possible when no gas units are made until the first production of a colossus which would P very vulnerable (it's equalivent to 15 Expo)
Hey that picture you linked is about colossus build, do you think you could do one for my theorycraft build?
here's the build again: 3 gate stargate, eventually nexus
3-4 sentries, 3+ phoenix, observers as needed, and 2 zealots (probably needed to hold earlygame) and a warp prism and stalkers if necessary.
Thanks!! It would be very helpful !
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I'm really glad I don't run into this at all for the most part. Maybe like 1/20 games are 1/1/1.
Just theory crafting here, but how would fast phoenix do against this? I know its lolmarines for the answer, but if you can pick off the Banshees and then lift the tanks while just sending Zealots after the marines, could that work?
I know it comes down to if you can micro the Phoenix well enough to charge in, pick off the banshees and then get out while trying not to take any hp damage/lose a Phoenix, but idk. It sounds good, but once again, only theory craft.
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On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with.
Something like the 40hp marine, +15 combat shield thing is often mentioned and would possibly work - although I think the damage they deal is the much more important factor. You just need to slow the point where marines *need* aoe to be stopped, by a minute or something.
edit to above: Phoenix work only when the opponent gets dumb and starts leaving stuff lying around, like asd did against Puzzle. If they just keep everything chilling in their base for a while then they can a-move you.
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On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with.
You mean so that Terran can be even more behind in the economic game? The only thing keeping Terrans on even remote equal footing in the mid game economy is the use of the mule. In a general sense, Protoss should be 4-7 workers ahead by the 30 worker mark, which is then matched by the +3-4 workers per mule. You'd have to redesign the way the mule works altogether to balance out any positive or negative side effects.
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On August 23 2011 06:45 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:40 JelleSlaets wrote:
First stats need to show there actually is a problem. (which we don't even know yet)
PvT stats in Korea (even Blizzard cares more about Korea  ) are horrifying. Show nested quote +
When they do, I don't think they will be looking at communities filled with platinum playing Stream watching biased players for suggestions how Zealots should have their base speed increased and mules have to be removed from the game.
No but they'll listen to Korean pros like MVP and community figures like Gisado. Stuff like this OP. Show nested quote +
That's why any balance whine is basicly is big waste of time, because pretty much all it does is get attention from either terran players or protoss players thinking they have to yell the loudest and maybe someone will hear it. Any post made by a serious player like Tyler / MC is then quickly dismissed, because said platinum player can list 2 replays, or saw a game on MLG proving xxx.
Tyler is dismissed because he's not a top player - and more importantly made a post which doesn't address the 1/1/1 at all. MC was quoted from his twitter commenting on why it's so strong.
Yaotzin - do you have a translation of what MC is saying?
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On August 23 2011 07:01 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with. You mean so that Terran can be even more behind in the economic game? The only thing keeping Terrans on even remote equal footing in the mid game economy is the use of the mule. In a general sense, Protoss should be 4-7 workers ahead by the 30 worker mark, which is then matched by the +3-4 workers per mule. You'd have to redesign the way the mule works altogether to balance out any positive or negative side effects.
Yeah, just like you said, in the mid game. Could make an orbital require a factory or something. That is all his post was suggesting. Slows down the ability to mass marines up so fast.
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On August 23 2011 07:01 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with. You mean so that Terran can be even more behind in the economic game? The only thing keeping Terrans on even remote equal footing in the mid game economy is the use of the mule. In a general sense, Protoss should be 4-7 workers ahead by the 30 worker mark, which is then matched by the +3-4 workers per mule. You'd have to redesign the way the mule works altogether to balance out any positive or negative side effects.
Could you explain to me why terran didn't have the mule in bw and still did fine?
Terran units are way more cost efficient. Constant chrono boost on probes doesn't change as much as you think.
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There are translations earlier, just some stuff about him not playing his best then something about marines and wishing for Protoss banelings :p
If Protoss had some aoe before friggin collo/templar, even weaksauce aoe, it would crush this build.
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On August 23 2011 06:58 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with. Something like the 40hp marine, +15 combat shield thing is often mentioned and would possibly work - although I think the damage they deal is the much more important factor. You just need to slow the point where marines *need* aoe to be stopped, by a minute or something. edit to above: Phoenix work only when the opponent gets dumb and starts leaving stuff lying around, like asd did against Puzzle. If they just keep everything chilling in their base for a while then they can a-move you.
I don't understand why people say marines are the problem. Plus Marines are kinda needed as is to deal with VR busts and mutas. It's not the marines, it's the tanks which deny FFing, it's the PDD which denies stalkers, it's the Banshees that kill all ground army. Basically it's the air combo with siege which negates much protoss units at that point in the game.
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On August 23 2011 05:21 koolaid1990 wrote:Come to think of it, I remember Jinro using it in GSL and winning everytime he used it. 1. He used it on choya on steppes of war, and won. He then used it on hongun and won. Then he played standard the other 2 games and lost. Just shows that 1-1-1 was always alive and kicking even before all the patches
Jinro used it on Steppes BECAUSE choya fast expanded
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On August 23 2011 07:05 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:01 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with. You mean so that Terran can be even more behind in the economic game? The only thing keeping Terrans on even remote equal footing in the mid game economy is the use of the mule. In a general sense, Protoss should be 4-7 workers ahead by the 30 worker mark, which is then matched by the +3-4 workers per mule. You'd have to redesign the way the mule works altogether to balance out any positive or negative side effects. Could you explain to me why terran didn't have the mule in bw and still did fine? Terran units are way more cost efficient. Constant chrono boost on probes doesn't change as much as you think.
Probably because Protoss didn't have Chrono Boost and Zerg didn't have inject larva?
All 3 races had nothing to boost economy in BW (you could argue that Zerg could make Drones a bit quicker I guess) and in SC2 they all have ways to boost their economy.
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On August 23 2011 07:06 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:58 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with. Something like the 40hp marine, +15 combat shield thing is often mentioned and would possibly work - although I think the damage they deal is the much more important factor. You just need to slow the point where marines *need* aoe to be stopped, by a minute or something. edit to above: Phoenix work only when the opponent gets dumb and starts leaving stuff lying around, like asd did against Puzzle. If they just keep everything chilling in their base for a while then they can a-move you. I don't understand why people say marines are the problem. Plus Marines are kinda needed as is to deal with VR busts and mutas. It's not the marines, it's the tanks which deny FFing, it's the PDD which denies stalkers, it's the Banshees that kill all ground army. Basically it's the air combo with siege which negates much protoss units at that point in the game.
Marines, compared to zealots and lings have been significantly buffed when comparing sc2 to bw. Not just a bit. Really, a lot. Too much to name really.
What blizzard did to "fix" this was add extremely strong AoE to zerg and protoss. Colossus and banelings. This results in marines being extremely strong early/mid game and unstoppable (on the area of cost efficiency) unless you have those aoe units. Which, protoss doesn't have at the moment the 1-1-1 push hits. They do have another gimmick available at that point, force field (bad mechanic imo), but it is totally ineffective against 1-1-1.
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On August 23 2011 07:06 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 06:58 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with. Something like the 40hp marine, +15 combat shield thing is often mentioned and would possibly work - although I think the damage they deal is the much more important factor. You just need to slow the point where marines *need* aoe to be stopped, by a minute or something. edit to above: Phoenix work only when the opponent gets dumb and starts leaving stuff lying around, like asd did against Puzzle. If they just keep everything chilling in their base for a while then they can a-move you. I don't understand why people say marines are the problem. Plus Marines are kinda needed as is to deal with VR busts and mutas. It's not the marines, it's the tanks which deny FFing, it's the PDD which denies stalkers, it's the Banshees that kill all ground army. Basically it's the air combo with siege which negates much protoss units at that point in the game.
They're all support units. If SC2 had a tab that showed the damage dealt by each unit type in the game, you would see that the bulk of it in every 1/1/1 is from the marine. The marine however is a little frail and doesn't have the best range. So you help him with tanks/PDD/banshees. Suddenly all of Protoss's answers to marine - stalker kiting, forcefield - are gone and the marines can go to town. The answer is not to nerf the support units, they're doing their job correctly. It's the core unit which is a problem.
There's a reason so many of SC2's problems with allins have revolved around the marine. Marines are much less of an issue mid-lategame though, when aoe is abundant. So nerf them then give back their power with upgrades.
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On August 23 2011 07:05 Yaotzin wrote:
There are translations earlier, just some stuff about him not playing his best then something about marines and wishing for Protoss banelings :p
If Protoss had some aoe before friggin collo/templar, even weaksauce aoe, it would crush this build.
Yeah MC is not one to publicly whine about balance that's why I asked and was kinda shocked. I remember when asked about various nerfs like KA he just said "no comment"
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On August 23 2011 07:04 Gooey wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 07:01 aksfjh wrote:On August 23 2011 06:51 SxYSpAz wrote:
I personally think they should just nerf the mule, or make it come into play later, idk how they would do it cause i'm not a terran player, but all those rines so early is a biiiitch to deal with. You mean so that Terran can be even more behind in the economic game? The only thing keeping Terrans on even remote equal footing in the mid game economy is the use of the mule. In a general sense, Protoss should be 4-7 workers ahead by the 30 worker mark, which is then matched by the +3-4 workers per mule. You'd have to redesign the way the mule works altogether to balance out any positive or negative side effects. Yeah, just like you said, in the mid game. Could make an orbital require a factory or something. That is all his post was suggesting. Slows down the ability to mass marines up so fast.
Yea, except mid game approaches around the 7-9 minute mark and requires the use of mules to even get to. Think of it this way, the first few (1-4) mules are the boon at allows you to either attack or expand, on top of having the ability to defend. Without that, Terran has only the resources required to tech, defend, OR expand. It's the equivalent of taking away sentries until robo/stargate/twilight tech. There would be no safe expand build for Protoss in that scenario, like removing the mule from Terran early game.
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at MLG, Incontrol said he wanted to get the revenge for Idra and Boxer smiled.
You want what there is no way because Boxer would just 1/1/1 and won.
Incontrol then type 'wp gg'.
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EPT
