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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 04:07 Aletheia27 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:05 andrewlt wrote:On August 23 2011 03:47 hasuterrans wrote:On August 23 2011 03:37 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
Funny thing is that every time that a protoss holds the 1/1/1 protoss players start saying how "wrong" was the build executed. Also the he 2nd attack of Puma was just a desperate move but MC's greediness made him lose the game. Also why is no one discussing how socke hold Select's 1/1/1 with colossus or was it executed "wrong" because the terran lost? It's the same reason this thread has 63 pages of generally low quality discussion and the thread on defending the 1:1:1 all-in has 14 pages of discussion...I've come to the opinion that most posters watch significantly more SC2 than they actually play. This is a progaming website that is dedicated first and foremost to following games played at the professional level. Not to mention that people who watch more games have better insights than people who play games, since the games you play are completely irrelevant in a discussion about high level Korean play. In fact, the vast majority of the low quality posts in this thread are made by people who have injected their personal experiences and play into the subject matter. IMO Playing with analysis/review >Watching>"blind" playing
The option read is not the best offense at the NFL level. Watching the NFL and actually playing will lead you to vastly different conclusions on what is effective at the pro level.
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On August 23 2011 03:11 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 02:35 roymarthyup wrote:
The discussion is whether or not a safe build exists for protoss that is safe against 1-1-1 and 2rax expand builds.
If the only builds that counter a 1-1-1 are builds that are auto-lose to 2rax expand, and the protoss must commit to that build before he is able to scout and know which is coming, then that means the protoss must coinflip every game with his builds.
Terran has several safe expansion builds that are safe against pretty much every protoss all-in and are equal with protoss expansion builds. So terran has the option of using a safe build OR using 1-1-1 and instant winning if the protoss got his coinflip wrong and decided the terran wanst going 1-1-1
Zergs used to complain about this, and multiple buffs and nerfs were thrown around and zergs didnt "magically start playing better", instead many balance patches were used to fix the situation zergs were having with these problems.
Now back to TvP, i am a diamond protoss and i am practicing with master terran players and im trying to find a safe build. so far this is the a safe build i think might show some promise
I admit that i am not a great player, and the only reason this build may be winning may be because my practice partners are bad. I fully admit that until this safe build is tested between two players with the highest mechanics, it cannot be said whether its viable or not.
I cannot say this build is viable, because this build hasnt seen any use at the highest levels of play and franky i believe if it doesnt work at the highest levels of play that it isnt "viable" in a game balance sense. blizzard wants to balance the game for the highest levels of play so e-sports fans who watch tournaments get to see great tactical matches in tournament finals instead of coinflip BO wins
now with that said.... onto the build....
first i must reiterate that everything im about to say about this build may be completely 100% wrong. maybe this build ISNT safe against 2rax expand, maybe my practice partners are making mistakes in their 2rax expands and maybe puma would crush this safe build idea with a 2rax expand even if MC was using it. I dont know for sure, im just throwing out what ive been working on and maybe a good toss player might think theres something to it
So far my testing shows this build is safe to use against 1rax fe, 2rax expand, 3rax expand, 1-1-1 banshee marine tank raven, thor allin, cloak rushes, CC first, and gasless expand builds.
this safe build idea is also safe against the very fast 2rax marine/scv allin that hits at 4:00 gametime, or the 3rax marine/scv allin that hits at 4:30 gametime, or the 6rax marine allin that hits at 5:20 gametime, or relatively standard marine/scv/marauder pressure that hits at 6:00 gametime, or relatively standard heavy marine/marauder attacks with stim that come at 7-8 minutes
here is the build. The thing about this build is it is completely 100% scoutable by your terran opponent the moment his scv enters your base, however i feel any reaction the terran does to it doesnt give him a insane advantage, only maybe a slight advantage or it makes it a fairly even game
this build gets 2 fast gasses, clearly scoutable by the enemy scv
this build skips making a zealot, clearly scoutable by the enemy scv
this build uses constant chronoboost on the nexus and it doesnt cut probes, clearly scoutable by the enemy SCV (it will notice your nexus has no energy and the gateway isnt making a zealot)
this build gets 200 gas by the time cybercore is done and it makes a stalker+stargate immediately after the cyber finishes. this is completely scoutable by your enemy because it makes a stargate before you can get out a stalker, but the advantage to this is it gets your tech out so much faster
your first stalker pokes your enemies ramp at about 5:00 gametime. if you see a marauder and no expansion building at his natural, you throw down a robo (because it gets no sentries it has enough gas for the robo). this means you are going 1gate/star/robo against a terran build that 100% includes marauders and isnt building a expansion at the natural before 5 minutes
your first voidray comes out at about 5:30 gametime. fly your voidray directly to your enemies base and scout with it. because unstimmed marines and voidrays both have the same movement speed, your voidray is able to fly everywhere around the terran base/natural without risk and give you 100% absolute scouting information.
also, keep a scouting probe between your enemies base and yours in order to see if 6 minute marauder pressure is coming. many terrans will pressure with some scv/marine/marauder at 6 minutes to kill greedy tosses. as your voidray is moving out to scout, if you see this marauder pressure coming you can kill it with voidray+stalkers (voidrays have some movement speed as the marauder) and then scout afterwards
the reason you have to make a voidray first instead of a pheonix is because if the terran went 3rax expand + 6 minute marauder pressure and you opened pheonix, by the time he reaches you with the 6 minute pressure he will notice you are going pheonix and you will most likely die. the voidray is much stronger against the 6 minute pressure than 1-2 pheonix
assuming your terran opponent does not do this 6 minute pressure, you scout with your voidray. with your voidray scout.... if you see your enemy doesnt have a expansion, make the robo support bay before expanding, this means you are going fast 1base collossi against a terran build that isnt expanding fast (which is good for you)
if you see your enemy has a expansion (meaning he most likely went 2rax expand), drop your expansion right away. THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE MAIN WEAKNESS OF THE BUILD. The terran can expand before 6:30 and have a economic advantage over you. This toss 6:30 expansion i believe is slightly weaker in economy to a 2rax expand, however i feel its not that bad because you know your enemy expanded and you can chronoboost out tons of probes nonstop so by the time your nexus is finished you should have okay saturation and the terran shouldnt be too ahead of you in terms of economy. the terran cannot cancel the toss nexus because the will will have stalkers/immortals and will soon have out a collossi. Then the toss should be able to take 3 bases and use defenders advantage and eventually take the game to a 3base vs 3base lategame scenario where lategame decisions decide who wins
With the 5:00 robo, i can have out 2 immortals and 1 collossi by 9:00. combined with some stalkers and zealots and a voidray. with a 3rax expand, by 9:00 the terran can attack you with a big handful of marauders and marines with stim, but i find with good micro that attack is very possible to defend against. i find the best thing to do is keep your collossi above your ramp and hidden. for 10 seconds play cat/mouse with your terran opponent with your immortals/stalkers/zealots and he will stim once or twice while you dance around your expansion taking some damage on your units. you should have 1 collossi, 2 immortals, 1 voidray, some 4stalkers and 6zealots by the time the attack hits at 9:00. keep your collossi hidden above your ramp or back behind your nexus. if your enemy focuses your expansion, you attack him with that force. he shouldnt be able to kill the nexus without losing like his entire army. your goal is to dance and buy time for about 10 seconds and after the first stim then you send in your collossi and your enemy has to stim again to try and kill it, pretty much i find the 3rax attack at 9 minutes is very easy to hold with this 9:00 army i have
normally the terran enemy tries to dance kite which gives you these 10 seconds. if your enemy stims and directly 100% engages your army without trying to dance, you must bring in the collossi asap because in those 10 seconds your entire army could die, because of this you should not hide your collossi if your army is too far away from the ramp or nexus. if your enemy does this direct engagement you can bring in the collossi and normally win since he isnt kiting your zealots and your zealots are getting in hits. its very hard to explain how to micro this situation but its not that hard i find it very easy and i dont think this build should lose to a 3rax marine/marauder pressure as long as the toss is halfway decent
after this, it is 2base VS 2base and i find the game pretty equal. You can defend against 2 rax with 1 gate FE then 2 gateways (Huk PvT), and you chronoboost warpgate. You pull probes if you need to and you'll be fine since you have 2 nexus. This also beats stupid 6 rax scv all ins, since you are able to pump out 5 stalkers to kite his marine scvs all the way to your base. It's also smart to build a robo like MC did after 3 gates in game 1... you can always cancel it if you see terran moving at you with bio pressure. So yeah 1 gate FE pretty safe.. it's also supposed to hold 3 rax with sentries and stalkers.. but that's a 2 gas variant with a later nexus.
You can defend a 2rax with Huk's PvT if the terran doesn't pull more than 5ish scv's. Any more scv's than that and at best you sacrifice the nexus, and retreat up the ramp. If you have no ramp you might as well leave the game, because you are going to die immediately afterwards(tal'darim T.T). 3rax is actually easier to hold off a 1gate FE than 2rax because it hits ~when warpgate finishes and you have a surge of units.
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On August 23 2011 04:06 DooMDash wrote:
I can't wait until time sorts this one out and we can stop hearing complaining about a build that's been around for ages.
Weren't you just talking about how this build was relatively new?
Astonishing.
On August 22 2011 06:41 DooMDash wrote:
Awhile now? How long is awhile to you? I don't remember this 1-1-1 non-sense going on for more than a month. NASL finals 1-1-1 wasn't even being used.
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On August 23 2011 04:07 Aletheia27 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:05 andrewlt wrote:On August 23 2011 03:47 hasuterrans wrote:On August 23 2011 03:37 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
Funny thing is that every time that a protoss holds the 1/1/1 protoss players start saying how "wrong" was the build executed. Also the he 2nd attack of Puma was just a desperate move but MC's greediness made him lose the game. Also why is no one discussing how socke hold Select's 1/1/1 with colossus or was it executed "wrong" because the terran lost? It's the same reason this thread has 63 pages of generally low quality discussion and the thread on defending the 1:1:1 all-in has 14 pages of discussion...I've come to the opinion that most posters watch significantly more SC2 than they actually play. This is a progaming website that is dedicated first and foremost to following games played at the professional level. Not to mention that people who watch more games have better insights than people who play games, since the games you play are completely irrelevant in a discussion about high level Korean play. In fact, the vast majority of the low quality posts in this thread are made by people who have injected their personal experiences and play into the subject matter. IMO Playing with analysis/review >Watching>"blind" playing
Unless you are Korean gm this is incorrect in this situation imo. There have been plenty of ways shown to beat high masters 1/1/1s, but they aren't effective when the build is more refined at a pro Korean level, where the build may be imba.
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On August 23 2011 04:09 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 03:55 tdt wrote:On August 23 2011 03:19 Condor Hero wrote:On August 23 2011 01:18 CCAA wrote:On August 23 2011 01:14 Chronald wrote:
Look at MC v PuMa finals, 2/3 games PuMa did this all-in and MC had no hope, none. You can try to say he made mistakes, which is partially true, but what did PuMa have to do to force those mistakes? A-move across map, siege at natural, A-move into base. That's it.
The honest truth is that it is imbalanced, and there isn't any math that can refute this. The Korean Win-Rates prove this point. Blizzard will fix this unless they want to see a lot of professional players stop playing. you have to mention that MC failed hard  Yeah he shouldn't have picked Protoss. MC didn't play perfect, no one's denying that. NO ONE can play perfect, not even vs easy AI. Puma didn't do anything extraordinary to really "deserve" the win anyways. The winner should outplay the loser. I don't really care about small imbalances (BW was full of small imbalances) but the audience should always get the feeling that the winner outplayed the loser and I didn't get that feeling watching this series. It makes for poor spectator experience. Feel free to disagree with my assessment. I agree with you. From a spoectators view all these all ins suck but really Game 2 just showed me how bad protoss really is. MC lands amazing storms out of shuttles, has positional advantage, economic advantage... But it just did't matter. PuMa lost like 8 medivak with like 50 units in them, and that doesn't cost him anything at all. MC lost shuttle with 3 HT and lost game. (BTW how ridiculous is that Protoss has to resort to about 5 extra micro steps just to get a storm off nowadays with shuttle?) Terran lacks consequences for lost units, even lost workers like game 1 losing 20. It takes amazing play to stop these MM and Hellion drops from Terran, but there's no real advantage gained by stopping them. Miss a couple Ghost and EMP + stim MMM wipes you out. If a storm hits...whatever, back up, don't engage, Medivak heal in like 10 seconds...damage doesn't count. Protoss can't run from stim MMMG. I still go back to FF. Protoss live and die by it thus Blizzard gave protoss high cost low DPS units to not roll everyone and without it (EMP or 1/1/1 which negates it) they die. It's just too reliant of a mechanic and I don't think spectator balance will ever come as long as it's in the game. Protoss will either look stupid OP as they roll trapped, cut in half armies or they get rolled. Haha that game was a rollercoaster. Casters: Oh wow MC blinked into the base and destroyed a lot of units. Nice storms. He dodged that EMP by bringin the HT back into the prism. Storm Drops. Puma's drops all denied. Denied the planetary fortress from going up. Up 2 more bases. More nice storms and feedback. Puma wasted EMP on sniping observer. Oh no, MC lost that warp prism. EMP hits. Oh no MC lost. Everyone was so shocked and tried to rationalize it. They blamed it on upgrades when it was in fact 2/2 vs 3/2. Lulz.
i think that is the point.alot of time i am having the same problems on ladder.i ignore all his drops kill lots of svc kill dropships but terran still won.how it doesnt cost anything to terran i dont understand.i watched game 2 and was very sad for not mc but toss race.
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Even though I don't follow the SC2 proscene much and just play it casually, I sort of predicted that somewhere down the line someone would figure out how to use Terran's ability to manipulate their economy so drastically to come up with stuff like this.
Expanding to counter an all in just seems... weird.
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On August 23 2011 04:07 Elean wrote:
I play both Protoss and Zerg, and I find that Protoss are really quick to QQ.
I may be wrong, but the 1/1/1 has been popular only for something like 1 month, it's clearly not much. It's not comparable to the situations zerg have been in the past.
Don't get me wrong, I do think that the 1/1/1 is most likely OP, but it's way too soon to say that there is no solution.
Personnaly, I'm getting the +1armor upgrade, I think that it helps a lot. Plus gettting the forge allow to build cannons, if I scout heavy bio with no tank.Also, there are little things like stopping probe production at the perfect timing etc.
If I suspect a 1 base all in, I always cut probes and get more gateway around the 8min15 mark.
I'm just in diamond, it may be noobish, I don't pretend otherwise, but at least I don't think that Protoss have run out of options yet.
As far as I'm concerned, MC crushed the 1/1/1 push vs puma. The fact that he made mistakes later (such as investing in the unfinished charge) and lost, does not change the fact he defended the 1/1/1.
You're wrong because Jinro won MLG with it and TSL Rain got to the finals with it. It hasn't made much of an impression on you because actually Protoss players are really slow to QQ compared to the Zerg. And even now, there are Protoss players that are very sure that they can hold it even though there are disagreements. Comparatively, Zerg was all pure whining even when the stats indicated they were not UP. This was mainly because they have vocal Zerg players like Idra.
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On August 23 2011 04:01 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 03:50 Thrombozyt wrote:On August 23 2011 03:12 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I really feel like this relates back to the complete lack of effective Protoss harass.
So if Protoss expands, they die to the 1 base all in. Ok, I can see that being kind of fair.
If Protoss doesn't expand, Terran sieges outside their base and builds bunkers, and Protoss has very little chance of taking the contain on head-on.
Can you imagine if a 1 base Protoss parked their entire army outside of the base of a 1 base Terran? And then started dropping pylons and cannons outside their opponent's base? Terran would laugh, send 2 full medevacs to the Protoss main and win instantly.
Without the risk of a counter attack, contains are too good against Protoss. Sure, you'll never run up their ramp due to force fields, but they're sure as hell never getting down in either. Something that can be dropped out of a Warp Prisim that can actually be effective would be a great start.
Still not going to be happy if we don't get a fix before HotS though, but I'm sure HotS will help a ton. Because the protoss has absolutely NO dropship like unit, that can be obtained faster and cheaper than a medivac and can land an endless stream of units? So the terran sets up his contain, you most likely have a robo, why not load up a warpprism with 2 zealots and 2 sentries, unload in his main, camp his production and forcefield the ramp should T try to get back into his base? Warp in stalkers next and zealot/sentry after that and you have infinite forcefield and go to town on his base. Because like 1 banshee will completely shut that down? Protoss units just aren't that good from a drop perspective, there's nothing that's the equivalent of blue flame hellions, or even regular hellions. There's nothing even as effective as a zergling drop. Doing a little damage isn't enough in this situation, you have to force the Terran into pulling back or losing his main. Protoss simply can't force the Terran to make that choice, SCVs and whatever happens to be sitting around the base is enough to hold off a Protoss drop.
I must be building the wrong banshees, because mine cannot take on 2-3 stalkers that warp in upon switching into pylon mode. 8 protoss unit should easily beat anything that comes out of the production facilities. If he pulls SCVs, he might fend you off, but you can easily warp in more stuff. Even if your drop gets wiped, your prism pulls out, warps in 4 zealots outside his base, loads up and redoes the drop. Sure, 2 medivacs full of bio with stim are stronger, but so are the grouped and synchronous warp-ins that defend. End of the day, toss units will wipe out the freshly produced units and as soon as the 2nd warp-in happens, nothing popping out of a production facility will win against your 12 warpgate units. 6 zealots, 4 stalker and 2 sentries are just beastly.
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On August 23 2011 04:20 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:07 Elean wrote:
I play both Protoss and Zerg, and I find that Protoss are really quick to QQ.
I may be wrong, but the 1/1/1 has been popular only for something like 1 month, it's clearly not much. It's not comparable to the situations zerg have been in the past.
Don't get me wrong, I do think that the 1/1/1 is most likely OP, but it's way too soon to say that there is no solution.
Personnaly, I'm getting the +1armor upgrade, I think that it helps a lot. Plus gettting the forge allow to build cannons, if I scout heavy bio with no tank.Also, there are little things like stopping probe production at the perfect timing etc.
If I suspect a 1 base all in, I always cut probes and get more gateway around the 8min15 mark.
I'm just in diamond, it may be noobish, I don't pretend otherwise, but at least I don't think that Protoss have run out of options yet.
As far as I'm concerned, MC crushed the 1/1/1 push vs puma. The fact that he made mistakes later (such as investing in the unfinished charge) and lost, does not change the fact he defended the 1/1/1. You're wrong because Jinro won MLG with it and TSL Rain got to the finals with it. It hasn't made much of an impression on you because actually Protoss players are really slow to QQ compared to the Zerg. And even now, there are Protoss players that are very sure that they can hold it even though there are disagreements. Comparatively, Zerg was all pure whining even when the stats indicated they were not UP. This was mainly because they have vocal Zerg players like Idra.
The sad thing is, as a Protoss player I want to have such a person for toss, too
A person that says: Hey guys...why is PvP so fucked up ? Why are Carriers and Motherships so fucking useless in competetive play and so on.
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Northern Ireland25482 Posts
Incidentally, would buffing zealots passive speed be too much to ask?
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On August 23 2011 04:27 Ubertron wrote:
Incidentally, would buffing zealots passive speed be too much to ask?
only terran is allowed to get buffed i think its gonna be a terran nerf..
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On August 23 2011 04:27 Ubertron wrote:
Incidentally, would buffing zealots passive speed be too much to ask?
Yes way too much.
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On August 23 2011 04:23 Mentymion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 04:20 kheldorin wrote:On August 23 2011 04:07 Elean wrote:
I play both Protoss and Zerg, and I find that Protoss are really quick to QQ.
I may be wrong, but the 1/1/1 has been popular only for something like 1 month, it's clearly not much. It's not comparable to the situations zerg have been in the past.
Don't get me wrong, I do think that the 1/1/1 is most likely OP, but it's way too soon to say that there is no solution.
Personnaly, I'm getting the +1armor upgrade, I think that it helps a lot. Plus gettting the forge allow to build cannons, if I scout heavy bio with no tank.Also, there are little things like stopping probe production at the perfect timing etc.
If I suspect a 1 base all in, I always cut probes and get more gateway around the 8min15 mark.
I'm just in diamond, it may be noobish, I don't pretend otherwise, but at least I don't think that Protoss have run out of options yet.
As far as I'm concerned, MC crushed the 1/1/1 push vs puma. The fact that he made mistakes later (such as investing in the unfinished charge) and lost, does not change the fact he defended the 1/1/1. You're wrong because Jinro won MLG with it and TSL Rain got to the finals with it. It hasn't made much of an impression on you because actually Protoss players are really slow to QQ compared to the Zerg. And even now, there are Protoss players that are very sure that they can hold it even though there are disagreements. Comparatively, Zerg was all pure whining even when the stats indicated they were not UP. This was mainly because they have vocal Zerg players like Idra. The sad thing is, as a Protoss player I want to have such a person for toss, too A person that says: Hey guys...why is PvP so fucked up ? Why are Carriers and Motherships so fucking useless in competetive play and so on.
I prefer having people like tyler or Incontrol who don't whine, are open-minded and try to find solution to problems instead of an idra2.0 ^^
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On August 23 2011 04:27 Ubertron wrote:
Incidentally, would buffing zealots passive speed be too much to ask?
The majority of SC2 ground units have the same move speed (2.25) for a reason.
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On August 23 2011 03:46 rareh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 03:37 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
Funny thing is that every time that a protoss holds the 1/1/1 protoss players start saying how "wrong" was the build executed. Also the he 2nd attack of Puma was just a desperate move but MC's greediness made him lose the game. Also why is no one discussing how socke hold Select's 1/1/1 with colossus or was it executed "wrong" because the terran lost? +1 Oh and when a toss doesn't hold, its cause the "toss played perfectly and terran even made mistakes blablabla" even though that is far from the truth.
Hey, it's not the Protoss' players fault that Terrans can't even execute a relatively straightforward all-in properly, and screw up all the time.
Puma's execution was actually pretty good in both of his games vs MC, cloak doing no damage notwithstanding. And yes, MC probably could've won game 1. Still, even if he had, it wouldn't have been an argument in favor of the all-in being fine. Because if the optimal response to an all-in is to do a risky expand, sac your expansion when the push comes, reexpand, keep pumping units without any tech or upgrades, and then you have a good chance of holding, then that by itself makes the build ridiculously imbalanced. The fact that you need to commit to stopping it before you can even confirm it's coming is reason enough to nerf it.
Finally, Select's push was at Socke's base at like the 12:00 mark or something. For some reason SeleCt decided to sit in his base for like 90 seconds completely unnecessarily. Which is why nobody's discussing it. Socke even said in an interview that he shouldn't have held it, if I remember correctly.
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I prefer having people like tyler or Incontrol who don't whine, are open-minded and try to find solution to problems instead of an idra2.0 ^^
Idra whined zerg to op :D
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On August 23 2011 04:09 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 03:55 tdt wrote:On August 23 2011 03:19 Condor Hero wrote:On August 23 2011 01:18 CCAA wrote:On August 23 2011 01:14 Chronald wrote:
Look at MC v PuMa finals, 2/3 games PuMa did this all-in and MC had no hope, none. You can try to say he made mistakes, which is partially true, but what did PuMa have to do to force those mistakes? A-move across map, siege at natural, A-move into base. That's it.
The honest truth is that it is imbalanced, and there isn't any math that can refute this. The Korean Win-Rates prove this point. Blizzard will fix this unless they want to see a lot of professional players stop playing. you have to mention that MC failed hard Yeah he shouldn't have picked Protoss. MC didn't play perfect, no one's denying that. NO ONE can play perfect, not even vs easy AI. Puma didn't do anything extraordinary to really "deserve" the win anyways. The winner should outplay the loser. I don't really care about small imbalances (BW was full of small imbalances) but the audience should always get the feeling that the winner outplayed the loser and I didn't get that feeling watching this series. It makes for poor spectator experience. Feel free to disagree with my assessment. I agree with you. From a spoectators view all these all ins suck but really Game 2 just showed me how bad protoss really is. MC lands amazing storms out of shuttles, has positional advantage, economic advantage... But it just did't matter. PuMa lost like 8 medivak with like 50 units in them, and that doesn't cost him anything at all. MC lost shuttle with 3 HT and lost game. (BTW how ridiculous is that Protoss has to resort to about 5 extra micro steps just to get a storm off nowadays with shuttle?) Terran lacks consequences for lost units, even lost workers like game 1 losing 20. It takes amazing play to stop these MM and Hellion drops from Terran, but there's no real advantage gained by stopping them. Miss a couple Ghost and EMP + stim MMM wipes you out. If a storm hits...whatever, back up, don't engage, Medivak heal in like 10 seconds...damage doesn't count. Protoss can't run from stim MMMG. I still go back to FF. Protoss live and die by it thus Blizzard gave protoss high cost low DPS units to not roll everyone and without it (EMP or 1/1/1 which negates it) they die. It's just too reliant of a mechanic and I don't think spectator balance will ever come as long as it's in the game. Protoss will either look stupid OP as they roll trapped, cut in half armies or they get rolled. Haha that game was a rollercoaster. Casters: Oh wow MC blinked into the base and destroyed a lot of units. Nice storms. He dodged that EMP by bringin the HT back into the prism. Storm Drops. Puma's drops all denied. Denied the planetary fortress from going up. Up 2 more bases. More nice storms and feedback. Puma wasted EMP on sniping observer. Oh no, MC lost that warp prism. EMP hits. Oh no MC lost. Everyone was so shocked and tried to rationalize it. They blamed it on upgrades when it was in fact 2/2 vs 3/2. Lulz.
Yeah they can rationalize however they want but protoss was balanced around FF. It's why they don't have near the units out or DPS out to defend a 1/1/1 properly. It's why MMMG rolls right through them later on. High cost and comparatively low DPS with mechanic saying you must divide and conquer.
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So in these 64 pages, has any of these pro-engineering theory-crafters found a viable solution for this build? or refuted the OP's claim in how its impossible to keep up with the terran's production output?
I've skimmed through the pages but nobody seems to be giving a decent answer to the build itself which is why I personally find it imbalanced. This build feels like a game of rock-paper-scissors, except the protoss always goes first.
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On August 23 2011 04:19 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Even though I don't follow the SC2 proscene much and just play it casually, I sort of predicted that somewhere down the line someone would figure out how to use Terran's ability to manipulate their economy so drastically to come up with stuff like this.
Expanding to counter an all in just seems... weird.
It's not weird at all. The timing on the all-in is so late that an expansion has time to pay for itself and then some. In most cases 10 minutes is about when they'll begin shelling your natural nexus, 6:20-6:40 is approximately when your nexus finishes. At this point you have 200-220 seconds to pay for the nexus, additional gates, and units. Each worker mines about 40 per minute, so it'll take 10 worker minutes to pay for the nexus. Additionally saturation beyond 24 per base has extremely harsh diminishing returns. A 1gate FE with no probe cut except to throw down additional gates has about 28 workers when the nexus finishes. To stop this allin you don't need or want more than 34 probes, so you'll make 3 workers from each nexus after the expo finishes, or for the sake of simplicity, a minute. If you transfer enough workers so each patch has no more than 2 workers, then you'll have 12 workers on minerals at natural and 16+6 on gas at the main. I won't bore you with details, but everything pays for itself by 8:20ish, and all the infrastructure you gained from expanding will have come up by 9:00. If you can delay until 10:00 or just before the bunkers finish, whichever comes first, and live through it, even if you clean up and there's nothing left on either side, your infrastructure will allow you to clean up the second push with relative ease.
EDIT: If you want to dispute this go ahead, but don't give me crap about stop playing greedy go one base to defend a powerful allin that hits at the 9 minute mark.
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On August 23 2011 04:34 rdr wrote:Show nested quote +
I prefer having people like tyler or Incontrol who don't whine, are open-minded and try to find solution to problems instead of an idra2.0 ^^
Idra whined zerg to op :D
I still haven't seen those results...
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EPT
