Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 62

On August 22 2011 15:57 papaz wrote:
Where is the show "imbalanced" when you need one.

No offense to TL discussions, they are definetely the best out of all forums/communities out there. But I would love to listen to some pros discussing this, maybe taking a look at some replays and showing us the imbalancies .

On August 23 2011 03:00 DertoQq wrote:


I'm not sure, I never tried it, but I don't think it does a big enough difference on such a low unit count.

On August 23 2011 03:01 Condor Hero wrote:

they wont discuss this.
theyll do stuff important to zerg first, like ghost mech and blue flame hellions.

On August 23 2011 02:35 roymarthyup wrote:
The discussion is whether or not a safe build exists for protoss that is safe against 1-1-1 and 2rax expand builds.

If the only builds that counter a 1-1-1 are builds that are auto-lose to 2rax expand, and the protoss must commit to that build before he is able to scout and know which is coming, then that means the protoss must coinflip every game with his builds.

Terran has several safe expansion builds that are safe against pretty much every protoss all-in and are equal with protoss expansion builds. So terran has the option of using a safe build OR using 1-1-1 and instant winning if the protoss got his coinflip wrong and decided the terran wanst going 1-1-1

Zergs used to complain about this, and multiple buffs and nerfs were thrown around and zergs didnt "magically start playing better", instead many balance patches were used to fix the situation zergs were having with these problems.

Now back to TvP, i am a diamond protoss and i am practicing with master terran players and im trying to find a safe build. so far this is the a safe build i think might show some promise

I admit that i am not a great player, and the only reason this build may be winning may be because my practice partners are bad. I fully admit that until this safe build is tested between two players with the highest mechanics, it cannot be said whether its viable or not.

I cannot say this build is viable, because this build hasnt seen any use at the highest levels of play and franky i believe if it doesnt work at the highest levels of play that it isnt "viable" in a game balance sense. blizzard wants to balance the game for the highest levels of play so e-sports fans who watch tournaments get to see great tactical matches in tournament finals instead of coinflip BO wins





now with that said.... onto the build....

first i must reiterate that everything im about to say about this build may be completely 100% wrong. maybe this build ISNT safe against 2rax expand, maybe my practice partners are making mistakes in their 2rax expands and maybe puma would crush this safe build idea with a 2rax expand even if MC was using it. I dont know for sure, im just throwing out what ive been working on and maybe a good toss player might think theres something to it


So far my testing shows this build is safe to use against 1rax fe, 2rax expand, 3rax expand, 1-1-1 banshee marine tank raven, thor allin, cloak rushes, CC first, and gasless expand builds.

this safe build idea is also safe against the very fast 2rax marine/scv allin that hits at 4:00 gametime, or the 3rax marine/scv allin that hits at 4:30 gametime, or the 6rax marine allin that hits at 5:20 gametime, or relatively standard marine/scv/marauder pressure that hits at 6:00 gametime, or relatively standard heavy marine/marauder attacks with stim that come at 7-8 minutes


here is the build. The thing about this build is it is completely 100% scoutable by your terran opponent the moment his scv enters your base, however i feel any reaction the terran does to it doesnt give him a insane advantage, only maybe a slight advantage or it makes it a fairly even game

this build gets 2 fast gasses, clearly scoutable by the enemy scv

this build skips making a zealot, clearly scoutable by the enemy scv

this build uses constant chronoboost on the nexus and it doesnt cut probes, clearly scoutable by the enemy SCV (it will notice your nexus has no energy and the gateway isnt making a zealot)

this build gets 200 gas by the time cybercore is done and it makes a stalker+stargate immediately after the cyber finishes. this is completely scoutable by your enemy because it makes a stargate before you can get out a stalker, but the advantage to this is it gets your tech out so much faster



your first stalker pokes your enemies ramp at about 5:00 gametime. if you see a marauder and no expansion building at his natural, you throw down a robo (because it gets no sentries it has enough gas for the robo). this means you are going 1gate/star/robo against a terran build that 100% includes marauders and isnt building a expansion at the natural before 5 minutes

your first voidray comes out at about 5:30 gametime. fly your voidray directly to your enemies base and scout with it. because unstimmed marines and voidrays both have the same movement speed, your voidray is able to fly everywhere around the terran base/natural without risk and give you 100% absolute scouting information.

also, keep a scouting probe between your enemies base and yours in order to see if 6 minute marauder pressure is coming. many terrans will pressure with some scv/marine/marauder at 6 minutes to kill greedy tosses. as your voidray is moving out to scout, if you see this marauder pressure coming you can kill it with voidray+stalkers (voidrays have some movement speed as the marauder) and then scout afterwards

the reason you have to make a voidray first instead of a pheonix is because if the terran went 3rax expand + 6 minute marauder pressure and you opened pheonix, by the time he reaches you with the 6 minute pressure he will notice you are going pheonix and you will most likely die. the voidray is much stronger against the 6 minute pressure than 1-2 pheonix

assuming your terran opponent does not do this 6 minute pressure, you scout with your voidray. with your voidray scout.... if you see your enemy doesnt have a expansion, make the robo support bay before expanding, this means you are going fast 1base collossi against a terran build that isnt expanding fast (which is good for you)

if you see your enemy has a expansion (meaning he most likely went 2rax expand), drop your expansion right away. THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE MAIN WEAKNESS OF THE BUILD. The terran can expand before 6:30 and have a economic advantage over you. This toss 6:30 expansion i believe is slightly weaker in economy to a 2rax expand, however i feel its not that bad because you know your enemy expanded and you can chronoboost out tons of probes nonstop so by the time your nexus is finished you should have okay saturation and the terran shouldnt be too ahead of you in terms of economy. the terran cannot cancel the toss nexus because the will will have stalkers/immortals and will soon have out a collossi. Then the toss should be able to take 3 bases and use defenders advantage and eventually take the game to a 3base vs 3base lategame scenario where lategame decisions decide who wins

With the 5:00 robo, i can have out 2 immortals and 1 collossi by 9:00. combined with some stalkers and zealots and a voidray. with a 3rax expand, by 9:00 the terran can attack you with a big handful of marauders and marines with stim, but i find with good micro that attack is very possible to defend against. i find the best thing to do is keep your collossi above your ramp and hidden. for 10 seconds play cat/mouse with your terran opponent with your immortals/stalkers/zealots and he will stim once or twice while you dance around your expansion taking some damage on your units. you should have 1 collossi, 2 immortals, 1 voidray, some 4stalkers and 6zealots by the time the attack hits at 9:00. keep your collossi hidden above your ramp or back behind your nexus. if your enemy focuses your expansion, you attack him with that force. he shouldnt be able to kill the nexus without losing like his entire army. your goal is to dance and buy time for about 10 seconds and after the first stim then you send in your collossi and your enemy has to stim again to try and kill it, pretty much i find the 3rax attack at 9 minutes is very easy to hold with this 9:00 army i have

normally the terran enemy tries to dance kite which gives you these 10 seconds. if your enemy stims and directly 100% engages your army without trying to dance, you must bring in the collossi asap because in those 10 seconds your entire army could die, because of this you should not hide your collossi if your army is too far away from the ramp or nexus. if your enemy does this direct engagement you can bring in the collossi and normally win since he isnt kiting your zealots and your zealots are getting in hits. its very hard to explain how to micro this situation but its not that hard i find it very easy and i dont think this build should lose to a 3rax marine/marauder pressure as long as the toss is halfway decent


after this, it is 2base VS 2base and i find the game pretty equal.

On August 23 2011 02:36 Topdoller wrote:
These AOE units are OP in every way

On August 23 2011 01:18 CCAA wrote:


you have to mention that MC failed hard

On August 23 2011 03:13 SorYu wrote:


AOE is always pretty impossible to balance in any game, emp/fungal in their current state is quite a bit too much "free" damage/effective aswell imo..

On August 23 2011 03:12 MrCon wrote:
MC did repel the first push, losing his nexus. This push was well executed, no flaw, so no "but the terran screwed up when the protoss crushed that push" excuse.

On August 23 2011 03:19 navara wrote:


while storm and colossus are perfectly fine

On August 23 2011 02:42 Carmine wrote:
People are forgetting the downside to mules. They deplete your minerals faster. at the time when Terran is floating his CC down to his natural, the protoss should still be mining. During this period of 15 seconds that Terran is not mining should be about 200 minerals or so that he doesn't have and protoss will.

Also, People keep talking about the 2nd and third waves of units, but in MC v Puma on Xelnaga, Puma brought so many SCVs that I imagine that MC's income was higher over the next period of time. He really didn't need to expand as early the 2nd time because

A) he would still be mining during the time that Terran was floating his CC

B) He would (probably) be mining more than or equal to the Terran at all times after the initial push (because of pulling SCVs).

After the first push he was in an excellent position, he should have moved out and delayed Pumas 2nd push by forcing seiges, all the while milking his small econ advantage for warpins or teching instead of expanding.

On August 22 2011 06:12 Lordwar wrote:
Why all this fuzz about this build now? this build has been around like forever?

On August 23 2011 03:28 SentinelSC2 wrote:


you can dodge storms, you can't dodge emp and fungal

On August 23 2011 03:29 TheWalls wrote:


Im new to posting so i dont know how to quote certain parts of a quote, but terran isnt behind when not mining ebcause they have the base already mined out while protoss doest. Technically they have more mineral mined in the situation so terran would be ahead econmically if this happens.

Secondly, why is a way of dealing with this build "forcing seiges?" Ok most builds can be combated by unitc compostions, but the counter this build is delyaing it meaning there is no viable counter to it.... that is not how starcraft ever was and hopefully will never be

On August 23 2011 03:20 rpgalon wrote:


actually, Puma researched cloak, but MC is so good that he was able to lose 0 probes, I would call that a flaw since cloak research = 1 more banshee in the push

On August 23 2011 03:05 Plansix wrote:


It doesn't really help against banshees and tanks. Thats 2 less stalkers and they are the only thing thats going to down the banshees. The timing on this one is so tight, 100 gas is a huge loss for the protoss player.