"I felt that I don't have a perfect command of the game right now. I will admit that my decision making and my hands are slow, and I'll try even harder to become perfect. Also, as a digression, the reason why 111 is so strong against Protoss is that Protoss only has a Splash Damage unit at the third tier. If we had banelings, then what would marines be?"
Doesn't this just end the thread?
None of the people posting here have NEARLY the level of understanding and skill that MC does.
I agree with MC I think protoss just need a cheap aoe unit. Terran has hellions, zerg has banlings. Both of those are big counters to marines, protoss's hard counter to marines seems to be collusus which is one of protoss's best overall units and takes a long time to get. Seems sort of unfair for protoss.
Or they just need to rely less on T3 AoE to at least get close to being somewhat equal with the opponent. Gateway unit compositions/early units are way too weak and have too little synergy, because of how force field is strong with +- 80/100 food GW armies. Force field needs a serious nerf to only become a defensive ability, and this will make it possible for gateway units to become stronger and their upgrades to come cheaper and faster. And maybe even an early game cheap AoE unit.
On August 23 2011 01:46 Yaotzin wrote: Woohoo? Yes, 1/1/1 doesn't win every single game its ever used in. That doesn't somehow mean it isn't broken. DTs against it? No idea how white-ra won with that because a 1-1-1 is like the best possible counter to DTs.
cant have 1 raven in 2 places now can u? especially with warp prisim, im glad whitera loves warp prisms, hes the only toss that uses it to great success.
I can't believe I'm still responding to you. Are you really serious here? If you rush to DT and make 2 dts and then somehow get a dt in the terran main, while his push is happening, you won't have enough units to even make the push take some more time. He will steamroll over your base. That 1 DT in his base is going to do what? Destroy every building before it is killed or before the terran destroyed all the protosses buidlings? Really? And you're totally "forgetting" that scan and 2 marines will kill that dt anyway.
dont bother asking me fine details of it, ask white ra and mana how they raped puma.
On August 23 2011 01:59 SentinelSC2 wrote: Good thing we have reav--- wait shit
Reavers were also a high tech unit - tech wise it is identical to a colossus... There wasn't a need for a lower tech AoE unit in BW because marines weren't overpowering.
On August 23 2011 01:46 Yaotzin wrote: Woohoo? Yes, 1/1/1 doesn't win every single game its ever used in. That doesn't somehow mean it isn't broken. DTs against it? No idea how white-ra won with that because a 1-1-1 is like the best possible counter to DTs.
cant have 1 raven in 2 places now can u? especially with warp prisim, im glad whitera loves warp prisms, hes the only toss that uses it to great success.
I can't believe I'm still responding to you. Are you really serious here? If you rush to DT and make 2 dts and then somehow get a dt in the terran main, while his push is happening, you won't have enough units to even make the push take some more time. He will steamroll over your base. That 1 DT in his base is going to do what? Destroy every building before it is killed or before the terran destroyed all the protosses buidlings? Really? And you're totally "forgetting" that scan and 2 marines will kill that dt anyway.
dont bother asking me fine details of it, ask white ra and mana how they raped puma.
Please stop being a total idiot.
I have watched both those games. Puma didn't even use the 1-1-1 build against mana. The games against white ra were also totally different and there puma made huge huge mistakes.
Stop shouting the same thing all the time and ignoring what people are telling you. Seriously, keep doing this and I'll report you for trolling/stupidity.
On August 23 2011 01:36 Kiarip wrote: cannons + phoenix hold this with big advantage. so just gotta find a solid way to play a stargate-nexus-forge build
yeah because cannons are great against seige tanks
Lift up the tanks with phoenix and carry them into cannon range
Tsh. What a silly idea. You can't move tanks with graviton beam.
He obviously means to chain lift tanks while building cannons under them.
Reavers, even though they were same tech as colossus, would have still ended this push. The problem is that toss can't deal with marines AND the tech units at the same time, because they both require vastly different tech choices, and if you make a colossus, he can just run the marines back behind the tanks while they blow away the colossus. A reaver... well your not getting away from that. one long ranged scarab shot, and boom, all the marines are dead.
On August 23 2011 01:46 Yaotzin wrote: Woohoo? Yes, 1/1/1 doesn't win every single game its ever used in. That doesn't somehow mean it isn't broken. DTs against it? No idea how white-ra won with that because a 1-1-1 is like the best possible counter to DTs.
cant have 1 raven in 2 places now can u? especially with warp prisim, im glad whitera loves warp prisms, hes the only toss that uses it to great success.
I can't believe I'm still responding to you. Are you really serious here? If you rush to DT and make 2 dts and then somehow get a dt in the terran main, while his push is happening, you won't have enough units to even make the push take some more time. He will steamroll over your base. That 1 DT in his base is going to do what? Destroy every building before it is killed or before the terran destroyed all the protosses buidlings? Really? And you're totally "forgetting" that scan and 2 marines will kill that dt anyway.
dont bother asking me fine details of it, ask white ra and mana how they raped puma.
Puma didn't open with the 1-1-1 vs Mana vs White Ra haven't seen the games Mana played awesome vs Puma tho.
On August 23 2011 02:04 Horst wrote: Reavers, even though they were same tech as colossus, would have still ended this push. The problem is that toss can't deal with marines AND the tech units at the same time, because they both require vastly different tech choices, and if you make a colossus, he can just run the marines back behind the tanks while they blow away the colossus. A reaver... well your not getting away from that. one long ranged scarab shot, and boom, all the marines are dead.
No it's because you can't make anything else if you rush collo that fast. BW didn't have SC2's macro mechanics speeding things up so Terran would have less stuff and your tech rush would be less costly.
In effect *time* was a less costly resource in BW because everything was slowed down. Time is paramount when it comes to this push.
On August 22 2011 10:40 Jamesbigpig wrote: How I feel as a Terran reading this thread,
On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered.
So basically, you haven't even read the OP and decided you are just gonna throw some random youtube video eh?
The ONLY VIABLE WAY TO BEAT 1/1/1 is to go early expo. Its in the OP, and it is true.
1/1/1 doesn't "lock down greedy builds", rather, greedy builds are needed to counter 1/1/1, but normal terran builds lock down greedy protoss builds.
If you don't know what you are talking about at least fucking read the OP before saying stupid shit like 1 base robo holds 1/1/1. It doesn't. Unless you are playing your buddy and he tells you that he will do 1/1/1 and also tells you what kind of 1/1/1 he will do, you need the fast expo.
Funny, because my whole post was responding to the OP. Read it carefully and you'll see that I disagree with the proposition that 1 gate expand is the only way to beat it. Just because the OP says its the only way doesn't mean its the only way was all I was saying. Maybe you should read the post your responding to before you make a totally stupid assertion that isn't even true. I was simply saying that Protoss are throwing in the towel by saying that 1 gate FE is the only way to stop it until it gets patched. Also the person who said 1 gate robo should be used against 1/1/1 wasn't me, it was Tyler.
The thing is, how is the FE hurting the protoss when the terran does the 1-1-1 build? if anything, it only helps. The 1-1-1 build hits pretty late where the FE is giving the toss player the economic advantage and already paying for itself. That timing and build is not punishing the FE.
Are you seriously asking how the FE is hurting the protoss... do you even watch Starcraft 2? Do you even play? Ever heard of a timing attack (what this build is) the 1/1/1 build is DESIGNED to punish the FE... Thats the entire point, because right now the Meta game screams for protoss to take a 20 food nexus (for what ever reason i dont know). That 400 minerals + money / chronoboost in probes adds up to about 5-10 additional units + less tech. Usually if the Protoss doesn't expand he usually holds it. I'd say about 60/40>
OMFG. Can you guys read the article which explained why with a faster expo, you get more units out when the timing actually hits? It explains why 1 gate FE or 15 nexus is the response to 1/1/1, not the other way round.
again... you get more units out that are lower tier, 1 base robo stomps this build pretty hard.
why are u guys bringing up white ra... white ra is miles behind MC and i'm sure MC would 3-0 White ra everytime. MC lost .... he's the best Protoss in the world. there's a reason why Code A gsl is Terran vs Terran and Code S right now is like 80 percent TvT....
Terran is just better then Toss. at the end of the day, If you can all in .. fail.. then all in again.. and win.. there's something wrong. It wasn't like puma was playing some ordinary Protoss.. he was playing against the best and still ran over him like he's a diamond league player.
Can someone explain why do you count mules to the terran income but you do not count chronoboost on nexus?
As a protoss you can chronoboost what you want, so if you prefer it to be on warpgates instead of nexus then it's your choice that you have a low income... It's the same for terran: he has to choose a scan OR a mule.
On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered.
So basically, you haven't even read the OP and decided you are just gonna throw some random youtube video eh?
The ONLY VIABLE WAY TO BEAT 1/1/1 is to go early expo. Its in the OP, and it is true.
1/1/1 doesn't "lock down greedy builds", rather, greedy builds are needed to counter 1/1/1, but normal terran builds lock down greedy protoss builds.
If you don't know what you are talking about at least fucking read the OP before saying stupid shit like 1 base robo holds 1/1/1. It doesn't. Unless you are playing your buddy and he tells you that he will do 1/1/1 and also tells you what kind of 1/1/1 he will do, you need the fast expo.
Funny, because my whole post was responding to the OP. Read it carefully and you'll see that I disagree with the proposition that 1 gate expand is the only way to beat it. Just because the OP says its the only way doesn't mean its the only way was all I was saying. Maybe you should read the post your responding to before you make a totally stupid assertion that isn't even true. I was simply saying that Protoss are throwing in the towel by saying that 1 gate FE is the only way to stop it until it gets patched. Also the person who said 1 gate robo should be used against 1/1/1 wasn't me, it was Tyler.
The thing is, how is the FE hurting the protoss when the terran does the 1-1-1 build? if anything, it only helps. The 1-1-1 build hits pretty late where the FE is giving the toss player the economic advantage and already paying for itself. That timing and build is not punishing the FE.
Are you seriously asking how the FE is hurting the protoss... do you even watch Starcraft 2? Do you even play? Ever heard of a timing attack (what this build is) the 1/1/1 build is DESIGNED to punish the FE... Thats the entire point, because right now the Meta game screams for protoss to take a 20 food nexus (for what ever reason i dont know). That 400 minerals + money / chronoboost in probes adds up to about 5-10 additional units + less tech. Usually if the Protoss doesn't expand he usually holds it. I'd say about 60/40>
OMFG. Can you guys read the article which explained why with a faster expo, you get more units out when the timing actually hits? It explains why 1 gate FE or 15 nexus is the response to 1/1/1, not the other way round.
again... you get more units out that are lower tier, 1 base robo stomps this build pretty hard.
That's definitely not true, You can actually get more lower tier units with an expo with greater mineral income With 1-base, you actually get faster tech like some people suggested with a fast colossus as you get your 2nd gas faster.
On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered.
So basically, you haven't even read the OP and decided you are just gonna throw some random youtube video eh?
The ONLY VIABLE WAY TO BEAT 1/1/1 is to go early expo. Its in the OP, and it is true.
1/1/1 doesn't "lock down greedy builds", rather, greedy builds are needed to counter 1/1/1, but normal terran builds lock down greedy protoss builds.
If you don't know what you are talking about at least fucking read the OP before saying stupid shit like 1 base robo holds 1/1/1. It doesn't. Unless you are playing your buddy and he tells you that he will do 1/1/1 and also tells you what kind of 1/1/1 he will do, you need the fast expo.
Funny, because my whole post was responding to the OP. Read it carefully and you'll see that I disagree with the proposition that 1 gate expand is the only way to beat it. Just because the OP says its the only way doesn't mean its the only way was all I was saying. Maybe you should read the post your responding to before you make a totally stupid assertion that isn't even true. I was simply saying that Protoss are throwing in the towel by saying that 1 gate FE is the only way to stop it until it gets patched. Also the person who said 1 gate robo should be used against 1/1/1 wasn't me, it was Tyler.
The thing is, how is the FE hurting the protoss when the terran does the 1-1-1 build? if anything, it only helps. The 1-1-1 build hits pretty late where the FE is giving the toss player the economic advantage and already paying for itself. That timing and build is not punishing the FE.
Are you seriously asking how the FE is hurting the protoss... do you even watch Starcraft 2? Do you even play? Ever heard of a timing attack (what this build is) the 1/1/1 build is DESIGNED to punish the FE... Thats the entire point, because right now the Meta game screams for protoss to take a 20 food nexus (for what ever reason i dont know). That 400 minerals + money / chronoboost in probes adds up to about 5-10 additional units + less tech. Usually if the Protoss doesn't expand he usually holds it. I'd say about 60/40>
OMFG. Can you guys read the article which explained why with a faster expo, you get more units out when the timing actually hits? It explains why 1 gate FE or 15 nexus is the response to 1/1/1, not the other way round.
again... you get more units out that are lower tier, 1 base robo stomps this build pretty hard.
No it doesn't.... read the OP! Or try it yourself!
On August 23 2011 01:59 SentinelSC2 wrote: Good thing we have reav--- wait shit
Reavers were also a high tech unit - tech wise it is identical to a colossus... There wasn't a need for a lower tech AoE unit in BW because marines weren't overpowering.
Blizzard seems fixated on powerful, sturdy bio units in SC2 to help out lower level terrans, though.
I disagree with reavers, though. Colossus needs the thermal lance upgrade and perform best when you have a critical mass of them and all sorts of support units. Reavers did best against terran in BW during the midgame, when shuttle/reaver was awesome during the time when both players still have relatively fewer units compared to late game situations.
On August 23 2011 02:12 Aiurr wrote: Can someone explain why do you count mules to the terran income but you do not count chronoboost on nexus?
As a protoss you can chronoboost what you want, so if you prefer it to be on warpgates instead of nexus then it's your choice that you have a low income... It's the same for terran: he has to choose a scan OR a mule.
You will never be able to match the MULE without sacrificing your military. That's what people don't get. When you use MULEs, you're choosing between scouting and resources. When you Chrono probes, you're choosing between research (i.e. warpgate) and economy. The trouble is that you need both. Supply drop is pretty much never needed unless you make a mistake, and scan isn't needed particularly regularly either. MULEs are basically just a free macro boost every 50 energy in nearly every situation the game has to offer. Chronoboosting probes is always a tradeoff. MULEs are never a tradeoff.
On August 23 2011 02:12 Aiurr wrote: Can someone explain why do you count mules to the terran income but you do not count chronoboost on nexus?
As a protoss you can chronoboost what you want, so if you prefer it to be on warpgates instead of nexus then it's your choice that you have a low income... It's the same for terran: he has to choose a scan OR a mule.
thing is that terran doesnt need to scan to win with a 1-1-1, he can see the nexus going up and kill you with 2rax or he can just do the 1-1-1 and kill you (if you are on 1 base)
On August 23 2011 01:36 Kiarip wrote: cannons + phoenix hold this with big advantage. so just gotta find a solid way to play a stargate-nexus-forge build
yeah because cannons are great against seige tanks
Lift up the tanks with phoenix and carry them into cannon range
On August 23 2011 02:12 Aiurr wrote: Can someone explain why do you count mules to the terran income but you do not count chronoboost on nexus?
Chrono on nexus gets you a probe lead early, and if the game follows a regular path and both players expand, that's fine. You'll be expanding as you saturate your main. However in a 1base v 1base situation mules allow the Terran to oversaturate, whereas Protoss has a temporary worker lead but at saturation point that lead quickly dimishes then disappears. Therefore the longer the game stays on 1base the better for the Terran.
As a protoss you can chronoboost what you want, so if you prefer it to be on warpgates instead of nexus then it's your choice that you have a low income... It's the same for terran: he has to choose a scan OR a mule.
Unfortunately, there is no way to use chronoboost to magically make as much money as Terran off 1 base.
EPT
