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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 00:48 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 00:36 Yaotzin wrote:
No other allin has needed months for a counter to come up. Usually the counter is immediately obvious - it's just a matter of figuring out how to get there, or how to scout the allin.
Protoss can't even *theorycraft* something that kills the 1-1-1, let alone come up with any way of getting there.
This is rather strongly indicative that there actually isn't one and the balance team needs to do their jobs. Good god stop getting your panties in a bunch. Not trying to be elitist here, but in BW there would be strategies that would dominate the scene for MONTHS before another pro would redefine the metagame with a different strategy which would then be "imba" for months until another pro.... etc etc. SC2 is such a young game, you guys need to calm the fuck down. The counter is NEVER immediately obvious, that makes no sense. In Game 1, if MC doesn't lose his scouting obs, he would've known to stop making probes and make units, and would've had a much better chance of stopping the 2nd wave. Also, I think 1 Colossus with ETL would've been a better tech route than Chargelot.
Kespa mapmakers in BW played a huge part in keeping BW "balanced". They were able to smooth out metagame shifts. The GSL still uses way too many Blizzard maps for such type of balancing to be possible.
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Even MC agrees the marines are the main problem of the build =) Which was pretty obvious since beta, and Blizz have been trying to toy and balance around it instead of just tweaking marines.
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On August 23 2011 01:03 Hikari wrote:Not sure if anyone posted this yet but here we go: From http://www.tweetdeck.com/twitter/OrangeMilkis/~9WOfxFrom MC: Show nested quote +"I felt that I don't have a perfect command of the game right now. I will admit that my decision making and my hands are slow, and I'll try even harder to become perfect. Also, as a digression, the reason why 111 is so strong against Protoss is that Protoss only has a Splash Damage unit at the third tier. If we had banelings, then what would marines be?"
Doesn't this just end the thread?
None of the people posting here have NEARLY the level of understanding and skill that MC does.
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On August 23 2011 01:14 Chronald wrote:
Look at MC v PuMa finals, 2/3 games PuMa did this all-in and MC had no hope, none. You can try to say he made mistakes, which is partially true, but what did PuMa have to do to force those mistakes? A-move across map, siege at natural, A-move into base. That's it.
The honest truth is that it is imbalanced, and there isn't any math that can refute this. The Korean Win-Rates prove this point. Blizzard will fix this unless they want to see a lot of professional players stop playing.
you have to mention that MC failed hard 
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On August 23 2011 00:48 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 00:36 Yaotzin wrote:
No other allin has needed months for a counter to come up. Usually the counter is immediately obvious - it's just a matter of figuring out how to get there, or how to scout the allin.
Protoss can't even *theorycraft* something that kills the 1-1-1, let alone come up with any way of getting there.
This is rather strongly indicative that there actually isn't one and the balance team needs to do their jobs. Good god stop getting your panties in a bunch. Not trying to be elitist here, but in BW there would be strategies that would dominate the scene for MONTHS before another pro would redefine the metagame with a different strategy which would then be "imba" for months until another pro.... etc etc. SC2 is such a young game, you guys need to calm the fuck down. The counter is NEVER immediately obvious, that makes no sense. In Game 1, if MC doesn't lose his scouting obs, he would've known to stop making probes and make units, and would've had a much better chance of stopping the 2nd wave. Also, I think 1 Colossus with ETL would've been a better tech route than Chargelot.
There were one base all-ins dominating for months on end in BW? o.O
There is a difference between BW metagame development and this. In BW, what was developed were actual strategies - involving an opening, timing attacks, expansions, elaborate harassment techniques and unit compositions, and more. When Bisu beat Savior 3-0 in MSL finals, it wasn't because he sat on one base making units, and then a-moved across the map for an easy win.
This is a goddamned one base all-in. It's not some elaborate strategy with midgame and lategame plans. It's not even especially innovative, just something back from Beta that got refined a bit and became stronger due to Protoss nerfs.
The comparison is totally out of place, imo.
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On August 23 2011 01:18 CCAA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 01:14 Chronald wrote:
Look at MC v PuMa finals, 2/3 games PuMa did this all-in and MC had no hope, none. You can try to say he made mistakes, which is partially true, but what did PuMa have to do to force those mistakes? A-move across map, siege at natural, A-move into base. That's it.
The honest truth is that it is imbalanced, and there isn't any math that can refute this. The Korean Win-Rates prove this point. Blizzard will fix this unless they want to see a lot of professional players stop playing. you have to mention that MC failed hard
I did, the point I was making was that PuMa had to do so little to force those mistakes from MC.
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On August 23 2011 01:15 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 00:48 Flonomenalz wrote:On August 23 2011 00:36 Yaotzin wrote:
No other allin has needed months for a counter to come up. Usually the counter is immediately obvious - it's just a matter of figuring out how to get there, or how to scout the allin.
Protoss can't even *theorycraft* something that kills the 1-1-1, let alone come up with any way of getting there.
This is rather strongly indicative that there actually isn't one and the balance team needs to do their jobs. Good god stop getting your panties in a bunch. Not trying to be elitist here, but in BW there would be strategies that would dominate the scene for MONTHS before another pro would redefine the metagame with a different strategy which would then be "imba" for months until another pro.... etc etc. SC2 is such a young game, you guys need to calm the fuck down. The counter is NEVER immediately obvious, that makes no sense. In Game 1, if MC doesn't lose his scouting obs, he would've known to stop making probes and make units, and would've had a much better chance of stopping the 2nd wave. Also, I think 1 Colossus with ETL would've been a better tech route than Chargelot. Kespa mapmakers in BW played a huge part in keeping BW "balanced". They were able to smooth out metagame shifts. The GSL still uses way too many Blizzard maps for such type of balancing to be possible.
Ah, every map an easy FFE, if only..
Unfortunately I don't know of any map solutions to this build other than using only huge maps which makes for boring games too often. Medium size maps look best in SC2 but this push works fine on them.
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one thing i think protoss should do against 1-1-1 that i havent seen is engage the army in the middle of the map with gateway units. if the terran doesn't siege in time you can roll his army easy and win the game. if he sieges then you back away thereby delaying his push. its silly that people think you have to fast expand to defend this
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On August 23 2011 01:20 RedMosquito wrote:
one thing i think protoss should do against 1-1-1 that i havent seen is engage the army in the middle of the map with gateway units. if the terran doesn't siege in time you can roll his army easy and win the game. if he sieges then you back away thereby delaying his push. its silly that people think you have to fast expand to defend this
What units are you going to engage with that doesn't get railed by raven/banshee/marine?
Zealot sentry? HAHA that will get rolled immediately. Zealot Stalker? PDD lewl. Stalker Sentry? troll.
Even if they late siege, you still get rolled.
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On August 23 2011 01:20 RedMosquito wrote:
one thing i think protoss should do against 1-1-1 that i havent seen is engage the army in the middle of the map with gateway units. if the terran doesn't siege in time you can roll his army easy and win the game. if he sieges then you back away thereby delaying his push. its silly that people think you have to fast expand to defend this
It's silly that people reply to a thread but don't read the OP.
Go read the OP.
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On August 23 2011 01:02 SKYFISH_ wrote:Spoken like a true Zerg around the time the second season of the GSL was happening - "hey TL, my name is Johhny and I just wanna inform your clueless asses that SC2 IS IMBA AS FUCK, because I haev to play PERFECT game to win, microing erry drone and ling, while Terran only has to maek muhreens. So whenever I win a game v T its because I played FLAWLESSLY ( yes I can be THAT good sometimes) but whenever I loose its because TERRAN IMBA AS FUCK BAAAAAW IDRA ALSO AGREED THIS IS 1000% the truth bla-bla-bla here are a shitload of pointless graphs and drawings I made in paint to further prove my point" give it a rest and some time for people to figure it out, honestly
impressive answer.
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On August 23 2011 01:20 RedMosquito wrote:
one thing i think protoss should do against 1-1-1 that i havent seen is engage the army in the middle of the map with gateway units. if the terran doesn't siege in time you can roll his army easy and win the game. if he sieges then you back away thereby delaying his push. its silly that people think you have to fast expand to defend this
On 1 base, if you engage his army with pure gateway units, you trade armies and his 2nd push kills you. Thats IF you trade armies. Chances are he will roll over your army anyway.
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On August 23 2011 01:19 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 01:15 andrewlt wrote:On August 23 2011 00:48 Flonomenalz wrote:On August 23 2011 00:36 Yaotzin wrote:
No other allin has needed months for a counter to come up. Usually the counter is immediately obvious - it's just a matter of figuring out how to get there, or how to scout the allin.
Protoss can't even *theorycraft* something that kills the 1-1-1, let alone come up with any way of getting there.
This is rather strongly indicative that there actually isn't one and the balance team needs to do their jobs. Good god stop getting your panties in a bunch. Not trying to be elitist here, but in BW there would be strategies that would dominate the scene for MONTHS before another pro would redefine the metagame with a different strategy which would then be "imba" for months until another pro.... etc etc. SC2 is such a young game, you guys need to calm the fuck down. The counter is NEVER immediately obvious, that makes no sense. In Game 1, if MC doesn't lose his scouting obs, he would've known to stop making probes and make units, and would've had a much better chance of stopping the 2nd wave. Also, I think 1 Colossus with ETL would've been a better tech route than Chargelot. Kespa mapmakers in BW played a huge part in keeping BW "balanced". They were able to smooth out metagame shifts. The GSL still uses way too many Blizzard maps for such type of balancing to be possible. Ah, every map an easy FFE, if only.. Unfortunately I don't know of any map solutions to this build other than using only huge maps which makes for boring games too often. Medium size maps look best in SC2 but this push works fine on them.
Part of it was the bigger high ground advantage in BW compared to SC2. Mapmakers were able to move the high ground push paths to weaken the potency or delay the timing of certain timing attacks and pushes.
The game also wasn't balanced around needing a tiny ramp to hold early all-ins so mapmakers were able to fool around with ramp sizes and create semi-island expansions with lurker eggs and mineral patches behind some obstacles. If GSL didn't insist on using some ladder maps as part of their pool and Blizzard became more flexible with their map design, mapmakers could do something about it.
The reason huge maps make for boring games was because the late game was never properly balanced or beta tested. Beta maps were too small for tier 3 units to be viable.
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the reason we can't counter this is because we have no harrassing units like zerglings or helions. we have no fast ground units. why did blizzard give us chargelots?? why didn't they let us have speedlots like BW?
PDD is too strong against stalkers, and that's our only defense against 1-1-1.
You guys keep saying get colossus.. you guys know that's more tech and less units right?? gettin a colossus just means even less units to fight that many marines and banschees/ravens. If it was easy as gettin out colossus to counter it, we'd all be doing it.
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I'm just curious how well the 1/1/1 does against holding off a 4gate? I understand that the 4gate timing should hit before heavy tech units are produced. I feel if 4gate becomes used in the match up, Tarrens will be more reluctant to tech so hard, since they are only producing marines from one barracks.
I mean the Tarren player is being quite greedy in how fast he can get his tech, so wouldn't gas stealing or perhaps forcing a couple of bunkers make the difference of time needed to hold off the 1/1/1.
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On August 23 2011 01:30 T.BonePickens wrote:
I'm just curious how well the 1/1/1 does against holding off a 4gate?
Dicey at worst, but with perfect play will certainly hold. 4gate is just too slow these days, that's why it's virtually disappeared.
I mean the Tarren player is being quite greedy in how fast he can get his tech, so wouldn't gas stealing or perhaps forcing a couple of bunkers make the difference of time needed to hold off the 1/1/1.
It's quite true that the opening is greedy. However Protoss cannot punish greedy openings anymore because people whined so much about 4gate and whatnot that they all got nerfed to hell. The only response is to try and be as greedy as them.
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I don't know about the balance of this build when executed by and against excellent players such as the top of the Korean server.
However I disagree that the 1-1-1 build is absolutely brain-dead simple. If it were so, then I as a protoss would never be able to beat it. But I do beat it sometimes, and using a sub-optimal 3 gate expand at that. And the reason is that I'm playing against lesser terran opponents. If an opponent's lack of skill allows me to defeat his build, then the build must require some skill to execute properly. So I wouldn't be so quick to totally disrespect those who execute this build as "a-move, siege, a-move"
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4gate is shit in PvT. You can't kill bunkers unless you go heavy sentry, which gets absolutely demolished by any factory units, which you will have in time. Also, you can have a friggin' cloak banshee out in time for a 4gate anyway, and then what is the Protoss gonna do?
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On August 23 2011 01:33 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 01:30 T.BonePickens wrote:
I'm just curious how well the 1/1/1 does against holding off a 4gate?
Dicey at worst, but with perfect play will certainly hold. 4gate is just too slow these days, that's why it's virtually disappeared. Show nested quote +
I mean the Tarren player is being quite greedy in how fast he can get his tech, so wouldn't gas stealing or perhaps forcing a couple of bunkers make the difference of time needed to hold off the 1/1/1.
It's quite true that the opening is greedy. However Protoss cannot punish greedy openings anymore because people whined so much about 4gate and whatnot that they all got nerfed to hell. The only response is to try and be as greedy as them.
no one has done 4gate against terran for like year
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cannons + phoenix hold this with big advantage. so just gotta find a solid way to play a stargate-nexus-forge build
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EPT
