EPTWhy 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 57
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Tommie
China658 Posts
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doomscythe
61 Posts
EDIT: i realised i made a stupid comment, Tyler mentioned it. | ||
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
No other allin has needed months for a counter to come up. what is a fake expo into 4gate allin? what is a 6 gate all in off two base? oh wait, i know - they are legit builds since MC and most P players after him were doing them. whenever MC drops a game the entire forum gets flooded with badly concealed balance whine posts and threads, but whenever MC wins a tourney using cheeses and all ins he is suddenly the best player in the world. hypocrite much? | ||
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annedeman
Netherlands350 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote: This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout. Allin is possibly too strong in general. -- In fact, I don't think 100% scout is necessary. No race can 100% scout in the game. It's just not doable. But there are builds that can be adapted, but they need to be adaptable enough within a span of 30s or so. I think the solution to 111 absolutely does NOT have a robotics. I bet _one_ gas + a 6:20 forge + some other tech (maybe charge?) will be solution. cannons do nothing to hold the all-in and to not die to cloacked banshees you need to place so many bunkers that going robo seems the be the cheaper route anyway. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:36 Yaotzin wrote: No other allin has needed months for a counter to come up. Usually the counter is immediately obvious - it's just a matter of figuring out how to get there, or how to scout the allin. Protoss can't even *theorycraft* something that kills the 1-1-1, let alone come up with any way of getting there. This is rather strongly indicative that there actually isn't one and the balance team needs to do their jobs. Good god stop getting your panties in a bunch. Not trying to be elitist here, but in BW there would be strategies that would dominate the scene for MONTHS before another pro would redefine the metagame with a different strategy which would then be "imba" for months until another pro.... etc etc. SC2 is such a young game, you guys need to calm the fuck down. The counter is NEVER immediately obvious, that makes no sense. In Game 1, if MC doesn't lose his scouting obs, he would've known to stop making probes and make units, and would've had a much better chance of stopping the 2nd wave. Also, I think 1 Colossus with ETL would've been a better tech route than Chargelot. | ||
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:45 SKYFISH_ wrote: what is a fake expo into 4gate allin? what is a 6 gate all in off two base? oh wait, i know - they are legit builds since MC and most P players after him were doing them. whenever MC drops a game the entire forum gets flooded with badly concealed balance whine posts and threads, but whenever MC wins a tourney using cheeses and all ins he is suddenly the best player in the world. hypocrite much? Lol. It didn't even take two weeks for there to be a counter for the nexus cancel all in. 1. Scout 2. Throw up spinecrawlers. 6 gate and/nex cancel were builds that were strong but when scouted could be stopped pretty easily after they were revealed. People can't even find a solution to stopping the 1/1/1 AT ALL, it's not just like throwing up bunkers to hold a 6 gate. The builds are completely different. | ||
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SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:45 SKYFISH_ wrote: what is a fake expo into 4gate allin? what is a 6 gate all in off two base? oh wait, i know - they are legit builds since MC and most P players after him were doing them. whenever MC drops a game the entire forum gets flooded with badly concealed balance whine posts and threads, but whenever MC wins a tourney using cheeses and all ins he is suddenly the best player in the world. hypocrite much? the point is that those allins can be easily defended if you scout them. protoss is forced to react perfectly based on guessing and even then it is very hard to hold the 1/1/1 allin... really feel like some people ignore the opening post  | ||
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:48 Flonomenalz wrote: Good god stop getting your panties in a bunch. Not trying to be elitist here, but in BW there would be strategies that would dominate the scene for MONTHS before another pro would redefine the metagame with a different strategy which would then be "imba" for months until another pro.... etc etc. SC2 is such a young game, you guys need to calm the fuck down. The counter is NEVER immediately obvious, that makes no sense. In Game 1, if MC doesn't lose his scouting obs, he would've known to stop making probes and make units, and would've had a much better chance of stopping the 2nd wave. Also, I think 1 Colossus with ETL would've been a better tech route than Chargelot. A whole strategy or style =/= An all in that has been around forever that can be perfectly scouted and anticipated and still wreck everyone. It should not be that difficult(near impossible without the perfect build) to counter one specific all in. | ||
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Hikari
1914 Posts
There is no point to tailor a build vs 1-1-1 unit comp when you already died to banshees or a BFH drop. | ||
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Clog
United States950 Posts
On August 22 2011 23:55 CryingPoo wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F1Tht.jpg) Because some people claim ridiculous stuff about what Protoss can have at 9:00 or 9:30 mark. I have included a backward work using Excel. Couple of assumptions are made and those assumptions favour those ridiculous claim still yet to proven wrong. Correct me if I am wrong - I am very tired from uni work and made a quick draft. Hey CryingPoo, Why are you adding on time for the observer, 2 gateways, and pylon production? These can go on as you tech up to the colossi. In fact, I just did a custom game for the hell of it and easily had 2 colossi out before 9:00 (despite getting supply blocked before each colossus... I don't play protoss T_T ) Not saying that's "the answer" but there you go. | ||
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frankepooz
Sweden19 Posts
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JustinMartin
159 Posts
And i think terrans play 1 1 1 only on small maps,but protoss are too stupid to realise lol User was warned for this post | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:45 SKYFISH_ wrote: what is a fake expo into 4gate allin? what is a 6 gate all in off two base? oh wait, i know - they are legit builds since MC and most P players after him were doing them. whenever MC drops a game the entire forum gets flooded with badly concealed balance whine posts and threads, but whenever MC wins a tourney using cheeses and all ins he is suddenly the best player in the world. hypocrite much? Are you telling me that If i say to you : "Ok, i'm going to fake expo 4gate you", you won't be able to win ? same goes for 6 gate. No one care if Puma wins with an all-in, people have been winning with all-in since the beta, that's part of the game. What's disturbing is that even a player like MC don't seems to know what to do against this particular all-in. | ||
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
protoss is forced to react perfectly based on Spoken like a true Zerg around the time the second season of the GSL was happening - "hey TL, my name is Johhny and I just wanna inform your clueless asses that SC2 IS IMBA AS FUCK, because I haev to play PERFECT game to win, microing erry drone and ling, while Terran only has to maek muhreens. So whenever I win a game v T its because I played FLAWLESSLY ( yes I can be THAT good sometimes) but whenever I loose its because TERRAN IMBA AS FUCK BAAAAAW IDRA ALSO AGREED THIS IS 1000% the truth bla-bla-bla here are a shitload of pointless graphs and drawings I made in paint to further prove my point" give it a rest and some time for people to figure it out, honestly | ||
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Hikari
1914 Posts
From http://www.tweetdeck.com/twitter/OrangeMilkis/~9WOfx From MC: "I felt that I don't have a perfect command of the game right now. I will admit that my decision making and my hands are slow, and I'll try even harder to become perfect. Also, as a digression, the reason why 111 is so strong against Protoss is that Protoss only has a Splash Damage unit at the third tier. If we had banelings, then what would marines be?" | ||
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Linwelin
Ireland7554 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:58 JustinMartin wrote: dont think its op,i play protoss myself and i think all protoss play too greedy so they get punished. And i think terrans play 1 1 1 only on small maps,but protoss are too stupid to realise lol You didn't read the OP did you | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 23 2011 00:58 JustinMartin wrote: dont think its op,i play protoss myself and i think all protoss play too greedy so they get punished. And i think terrans play 1 1 1 only on small maps,but protoss are too stupid to realise lol Once again, it is stupid to say "protoss play too greedy so they get punished", 1-1-1 is not made to punish 15nexus, 15nexus is made to counter 1-1-1. I'm sorry but I highly doubt you play protoss if you don't realize that ^^ | ||
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ktgster
Canada70 Posts
Best case scenario: You see the rax, the add on, the gas, try to count marines etc, maybe a maurauder. Okay prepare for some barracks pressure and expand okay, fine. Worst case scenario: You get the T's base last and see nothing. At the point of not seeing anything which protoss would not go robotics for possible banshees? Okay this puts me behind if hes doing a rax expand, but I don't want to die to every possible terran build. This is a problem simply because terran has so much tech so quickly and it's fairly impossibly to figure out if you need obs or not, so you need to blindly make 2 and even still you'll lose some probes to banshees. Then the follow up is the giant marine, raven, marine push.. At that point I might have made too many stalkers anticipating more the need for them for the banshees, but they all get nullified by a single pdd. then I try really hard, but die anyways. | ||
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Aro
Canada36 Posts
On August 22 2011 23:10 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I (diamond toss) have been thinking all week about this build. At my level, I find it's actually pretty reasonable to hold with mass Zealots, four or six Stalkers and a few Immortals, getting a good flank and warping in stalkers as the fight goes on, but I can clearly see that this doesn't work well at the highest level of play. What I've considered, and would be curious to hear back on from more talented players, is the idea of going 1-gate robo expand, then sending an army with the initial Observer with the goal of containing the Terran at their own ramp with forcefields if a 1-1-1 is scouted to delay the push until Medivacs can be produced. My gut feeling is that an Observer with a few Stalkers and all your Sentries could camp the ramp for a few minutes while more Stalkers and a second Obs stayed home to defend against Banshees. The delay would be enough to guarantee that Charge could be out before the attack hit, and you'd have a significantly larger Zealot force. Now, the tactic of camping a Terran's ramp like this is nothing new, so I'm wondering if I'm not missing something obvious that makes this a bad tactic. I'm going to try fleshing this out a bit as soon as I can, but as I said, my level isn't enough for my own tests to really show whether it's a viable response. Any thoughts? Siege and banshee will easily break your contain, and then he'll chase you home while banshees kill your sentries and then your zealots all the way across the map. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
Go on the TW/KR server as protoss, use your "mad skills" to beat this rush all the way into GM, because if you can beat this rush consistently on the KR server, you will beat every single terran you cross. I'm serious, I haven't played a PvT on any map that doesn't involve a variation of this build, even TDA they do it because you can siege so many spots outside the main. Look at MC v PuMa finals, 2/3 games PuMa did this all-in and MC had no hope, none. You can try to say he made mistakes, which is partially true, but what did PuMa have to do to force those mistakes? A-move across map, siege at natural, A-move into base. That's it. The honest truth is that it is imbalanced, and there isn't any math that can refute this. The Korean Win-Rates prove this point. Blizzard will fix this unless they want to see a lot of professional players stop playing. | ||
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