EPTor isn't it?
Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 61
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Aiurr
Poland80 Posts
or isn't it? | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On August 23 2011 02:30 Aiurr wrote: aren't zealots archons templars good against 1-1-1? you can feedback banshees, ghosts, raven, medivacs, storm rest and siege tanks will do splash on terran's own units... looks good to me. And it requires about the same effort as putting PDD, targetfire units with tanks, using stimpack, EMP and micro hellions. or isn't it? you will never be able to get enough gas to sustain the unit count necessary for this to work. banshee harass will also obliterate you. | ||
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Finchy711
United States48 Posts
On August 22 2011 17:30 yeint wrote: Please stop with the balance change theorycrafting, it's really unproductive and frankly horribly tedious to have to skip over. Anyway, my question about stargate oriented builds - wouldn't 1-2 Void Rays be better anti-air since they aren't affected by the PDD? I know marines chew them up but these are unstimmed and the role of anti-air is to deny high ground vision for the siege tanks, which Puma got by PDD-ing the ramp and moving banshees up. Personally, I think robo tech isn't the appropriate solution to 1/1/1, going for fast HT seems far superior since a single storm will eliminate the unupgraded marines, feedback will one-shot uncloaked Banshees and a half-energy Raven, and archons should work well to break siege lines. The danger of course is that robo is required for mobile detection, which is a must for cloaked banshee. Can't you take cloak off the table by gas stealing? (I personally think both Z and P should always gas steal unless they are denied from entering the base) Fast HT's would be great, however the problem is that you simply cannot get them (with storm and enough other units to hold the push) by the time this push comes at 9-10min (depending on variation ofc). A gas steal doesn't necessarily take cloak off the table what it does is forces the T to choose between where he spends his limited gas income. You can still get cloak at a reasonable time, but you must cut something else (tanks / siege mode / raven). I really don't understand why people are just foregoing the power of the gas steal in this situation. It requires very little investment and it destroys the timing power of 1-1-1. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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MicromaN
Australia2 Posts
I do not claim at all to be a good player, I have however watched pretty much every single GSL match broadcasted and have consequently learnt the trends in the meta game accordingly. Despite MC's amazing play and defense in the IEM finals, e.g: GAME 1. Knowing exactly what Puma was planning, and doing every possible thing to counter it. Only to have Puma dispose of 10 scv's with his pre-determined ''all-in'' and then create a second wave, seemingly more powerful than the first by abusing the mule to mostly amplify his gasless marine army (even against a 1 gate expand build, - and correct me if i'm wrong but MC had a superior supply throughout the entire game). Seems a little unfair to me. Let's be honest here.... Considering the fact that Protoss is a race based on compositional elements, a one base is just not practical to counter this and considering the need for high volumes of gas to become a threat at all (which obviously means expanding) I do not think it fair that certain builds can efficiently nullify an entire matchup if executed correctly. And imho 1-1-1 is such a build. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
If the only builds that counter a 1-1-1 are builds that are auto-lose to 2rax expand, and the protoss must commit to that build before he is able to scout and know which is coming, then that means the protoss must coinflip every game with his builds. Terran has several safe expansion builds that are safe against pretty much every protoss all-in and are equal with protoss expansion builds. So terran has the option of using a safe build OR using 1-1-1 and instant winning if the protoss got his coinflip wrong and decided the terran wanst going 1-1-1 Zergs used to complain about this, and multiple buffs and nerfs were thrown around and zergs didnt "magically start playing better", instead many balance patches were used to fix the situation zergs were having with these problems. Now back to TvP, i am a diamond protoss and i am practicing with master terran players and im trying to find a safe build. so far this is the a safe build i think might show some promise I admit that i am not a great player, and the only reason this build may be winning may be because my practice partners are bad. I fully admit that until this safe build is tested between two players with the highest mechanics, it cannot be said whether its viable or not. I cannot say this build is viable, because this build hasnt seen any use at the highest levels of play and franky i believe if it doesnt work at the highest levels of play that it isnt "viable" in a game balance sense. blizzard wants to balance the game for the highest levels of play so e-sports fans who watch tournaments get to see great tactical matches in tournament finals instead of coinflip BO wins now with that said.... onto the build.... first i must reiterate that everything im about to say about this build may be completely 100% wrong. maybe this build ISNT safe against 2rax expand, maybe my practice partners are making mistakes in their 2rax expands and maybe puma would crush this safe build idea with a 2rax expand even if MC was using it. I dont know for sure, im just throwing out what ive been working on and maybe a good toss player might think theres something to it So far my testing shows this build is safe to use against 1rax fe, 2rax expand, 3rax expand, 1-1-1 banshee marine tank raven, thor allin, cloak rushes, CC first, and gasless expand builds. this safe build idea is also safe against the very fast 2rax marine/scv allin that hits at 4:00 gametime, or the 3rax marine/scv allin that hits at 4:30 gametime, or the 6rax marine allin that hits at 5:20 gametime, or relatively standard marine/scv/marauder pressure that hits at 6:00 gametime, or relatively standard heavy marine/marauder attacks with stim that come at 7-8 minutes here is the build. The thing about this build is it is completely 100% scoutable by your terran opponent the moment his scv enters your base, however i feel any reaction the terran does to it doesnt give him a insane advantage, only maybe a slight advantage or it makes it a fairly even game this build gets 2 fast gasses, clearly scoutable by the enemy scv this build skips making a zealot, clearly scoutable by the enemy scv this build uses constant chronoboost on the nexus and it doesnt cut probes, clearly scoutable by the enemy SCV (it will notice your nexus has no energy and the gateway isnt making a zealot) this build gets 200 gas by the time cybercore is done and it makes a stalker+stargate immediately after the cyber finishes. this is completely scoutable by your enemy because it makes a stargate before you can get out a stalker, but the advantage to this is it gets your tech out so much faster your first stalker pokes your enemies ramp at about 5:00 gametime. if you see a marauder and no expansion building at his natural, you throw down a robo (because it gets no sentries it has enough gas for the robo). this means you are going 1gate/star/robo against a terran build that 100% includes marauders and isnt building a expansion at the natural before 5 minutes your first voidray comes out at about 5:30 gametime. fly your voidray directly to your enemies base and scout with it. because unstimmed marines and voidrays both have the same movement speed, your voidray is able to fly everywhere around the terran base/natural without risk and give you 100% absolute scouting information. also, keep a scouting probe between your enemies base and yours in order to see if 6 minute marauder pressure is coming. many terrans will pressure with some scv/marine/marauder at 6 minutes to kill greedy tosses. as your voidray is moving out to scout, if you see this marauder pressure coming you can kill it with voidray+stalkers (voidrays have some movement speed as the marauder) and then scout afterwards the reason you have to make a voidray first instead of a pheonix is because if the terran went 3rax expand + 6 minute marauder pressure and you opened pheonix, by the time he reaches you with the 6 minute pressure he will notice you are going pheonix and you will most likely die. the voidray is much stronger against the 6 minute pressure than 1-2 pheonix assuming your terran opponent does not do this 6 minute pressure, you scout with your voidray. with your voidray scout.... if you see your enemy doesnt have a expansion, make the robo support bay before expanding, this means you are going fast 1base collossi against a terran build that isnt expanding fast (which is good for you) if you see your enemy has a expansion (meaning he most likely went 2rax expand), drop your expansion right away. THIS RIGHT HERE IS THE MAIN WEAKNESS OF THE BUILD. The terran can expand before 6:30 and have a economic advantage over you. This toss 6:30 expansion i believe is slightly weaker in economy to a 2rax expand, however i feel its not that bad because you know your enemy expanded and you can chronoboost out tons of probes nonstop so by the time your nexus is finished you should have okay saturation and the terran shouldnt be too ahead of you in terms of economy. the terran cannot cancel the toss nexus because the will will have stalkers/immortals and will soon have out a collossi. Then the toss should be able to take 3 bases and use defenders advantage and eventually take the game to a 3base vs 3base lategame scenario where lategame decisions decide who wins With the 5:00 robo, i can have out 2 immortals and 1 collossi by 9:00. combined with some stalkers and zealots and a voidray. with a 3rax expand, by 9:00 the terran can attack you with a big handful of marauders and marines with stim, but i find with good micro that attack is very possible to defend against. i find the best thing to do is keep your collossi above your ramp and hidden. for 10 seconds play cat/mouse with your terran opponent with your immortals/stalkers/zealots and he will stim once or twice while you dance around your expansion taking some damage on your units. you should have 1 collossi, 2 immortals, 1 voidray, some 4stalkers and 6zealots by the time the attack hits at 9:00. keep your collossi hidden above your ramp or back behind your nexus. if your enemy focuses your expansion, you attack him with that force. he shouldnt be able to kill the nexus without losing like his entire army. your goal is to dance and buy time for about 10 seconds and after the first stim then you send in your collossi and your enemy has to stim again to try and kill it, pretty much i find the 3rax attack at 9 minutes is very easy to hold with this 9:00 army i have normally the terran enemy tries to dance kite which gives you these 10 seconds. if your enemy stims and directly 100% engages your army without trying to dance, you must bring in the collossi asap because in those 10 seconds your entire army could die, because of this you should not hide your collossi if your army is too far away from the ramp or nexus. if your enemy does this direct engagement you can bring in the collossi and normally win since he isnt kiting your zealots and your zealots are getting in hits. its very hard to explain how to micro this situation but its not that hard i find it very easy and i dont think this build should lose to a 3rax marine/marauder pressure as long as the toss is halfway decent after this, it is 2base VS 2base and i find the game pretty equal. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
Blizz buffed this unit from BW and weakened the other races counter units, Zealots and Lings. Instead they gave the other races amazing AOE dps units like banelings, colossus, Infestors which come later in the game just to give the other races a chance to compete. These AOE units are OP in every way buts the only way they can compete against this unit that costs 50 minerals On top of that they made the units pack denser so the DPS of the Marine scales per screen area even more. It cost fuck all to build and for 50 gas you can build 2 at a time from one barracks. Over the last couple of months all we are seeing is super strong 1 and 2 base play from Terran. If you got the APM to use this unit and as you know the Koreans do, its rewards you by shitting on everything else in the game. I watched DOTA2 yesterday just before the finals and I didn't have a clue what was going on but I can you this, it was better to watch than SC2 finals match. SC2 wont become what' everyone wants it to be with gameplay like this, where everything dies so fast. It really is a poor spectator event | ||
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Aiurr
Poland80 Posts
On August 23 2011 02:31 Shiori wrote: you will never be able to get enough gas to sustain the unit count necessary for this to work. banshee harass will also obliterate you. well then... high five! I'll go have fun with 1-1-1 before it's too late ;] | ||
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Carmine
United States263 Posts
Also, People keep talking about the 2nd and third waves of units, but in MC v Puma on Xelnaga, Puma brought so many SCVs that I imagine that MC's income was higher over the next period of time. He really didn't need to expand as early the 2nd time because A) he would still be mining during the time that Terran was floating his CC B) He would (probably) be mining more than or equal to the Terran at all times after the initial push (because of pulling SCVs). After the first push he was in an excellent position, he should have moved out and delayed Pumas 2nd push by forcing seiges, all the while milking his small econ advantage for warpins or teching instead of expanding. | ||
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Mentymion
Germany259 Posts
On August 23 2011 02:42 Carmine wrote: People are forgetting the downside to mules. They deplete your minerals faster. . Ähhhmmm, the game is over before your minerals are depleted or I'am seeing this wrong ? O.o° | ||
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Aro
Canada36 Posts
On August 23 2011 02:43 Mentymion wrote: Ähhhmmm, the game is over before your minerals are depleted or I'am seeing this wrong ? O.o° This doesn't matter because the terran player can just float his orbital to his natural and continue mining. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26736 Posts
On August 23 2011 02:36 Topdoller wrote: 90% of the balance problems in this game come down to 1 unit " The Marine". It could be a 2 rax expand , a 2 rax all in , a bunker rush, incredible drop play which rapes bases blah blah. Blizz buffed this unit from BW and weakened the other races counter units, Zealots and Lings. Instead they gave the other races amazing AOE dps units like banelings, colossus, Infestors which come later in the game just to give the other races a chance to compete. These AOE units are OP in every way buts the only way they can compete against this unit that costs 50 minerals On top of that they made the units pack denser so the DPS of the Marine scales per screen area even more. It cost fuck all to build and for 50 gas you can build 2 at a time from one barracks. Over the last couple of months all we are seeing is super strong 1 and 2 base play from Terran. If you got the APM to use this unit and as you know the Koreans do, its rewards you by shitting on everything else in the game. I watched DOTA2 yesterday just before the finals and I didn't have a clue what was going on but I can you this, it was better to watch than SC2 finals match. SC2 wont become what' everyone wants it to be with gameplay like this, where everything dies so fast. It really is a poor spectator event @ roymarthyup first off, that sounds like an interesting build and I am 100% sure it will help people at the lower/mid levels of play vs the 1/1/1. Would like to, as you say see the top players playtest and refine it to see if it still works the higher up you go @the quoted post, I agree entirely about the spectator bit. I really think the clumping and high DPS of armies needs to be looked at, things get wiped too fast. Late game becomes a spellcaster war, if Terran gets EMPs off the Protoss does NOT compete, if Protoss feedbacks the ghosts and storms they WIPE the Terran ball There is none of the back and forth play that you saw in high level Brood War, with constant sustained battles. WC3 had similarly intense engagements but obviously it's a completely different style of RTS. This is coming from a non-BW fanboy, I played when I was very young and dropped it, only went to watch high level games since I got into SC2 and the intensity and excitement of the matches is just superior for a non-player. My friends who don't play all found BW better to watch bar the graphics when I showed them it | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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MicromaN
Australia2 Posts
People are forgetting the downside to mules. They deplete your minerals faster. LOL. That's a good thing right? Also, People keep talking about the 2nd and third waves of units, but in MC v Puma on Xelnaga, Puma brought so many SCVs that I imagine that MC's income was higher over the next period of time. So what you're saying is that those 10 SCV's were a complete and utter disposable income to Puma, - whilst also having the ability to strengthen his push by creating bunkers and repairing mechanical units. Maybe you'd also suggest a macro mechanic equivalent for a protoss player. Nah. Didn't think so. | ||
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
On August 23 2011 02:30 Aiurr wrote: aren't zealots archons templars good against 1-1-1? you can feedback banshees, ghosts, raven, medivacs, storm rest and siege tanks will do splash on terran's own units... looks good to me. And it requires about the same effort as putting PDD, targetfire units with tanks, using stimpack, EMP and micro hellions. or isn't it? Nope, too much gas. I mean you need the robo for a possible cloak banshees and you can't go robo and templar tech against 1-1-1. You won't have enough units to deal with it. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On August 23 2011 02:19 maryelizbethwinstead wrote: The solution is obvious! Zealot cleave! ha....that would be soo soo sweet. Possible fixes (or help not really a fix) could be charge to cyber bay banshee cloak to fusion core (so we wont have to have an observer for just in case) PDD needs to be researched maybe just 1 of these maybe all 3. I think these are the reasons 1 1 1 is so strong | ||
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
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Tyree
1508 Posts
As i viewer i barely watch anymore, GSL ive stopped lately because it has regressed almost back to GSL 1 and 2, just with different builds but same sort of "OH NO HE IS ATTACKING!" "CAN HE HOLD TASTELESS!?" type matches that make you feel cheated. | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 23 2011 02:58 Validity wrote: Can someone tell me why the Koreans aren't getting a fast forge to get +1 armor against 1-1-1? Especially with a 1 gate fe build where you have to mostly rely on gateway units? I'm not sure, I never tried it, but I don't think it does a big enough difference on such a low unit count. | ||
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