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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 23 2011 02:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 02:30 Aiurr wrote:
aren't zealots archons templars good against 1-1-1? you can feedback banshees, ghosts, raven, medivacs, storm rest and siege tanks will do splash on terran's own units... looks good to me. And it requires about the same effort as putting PDD, targetfire units with tanks, using stimpack, EMP and micro hellions.
or isn't it? you will never be able to get enough gas to sustain the unit count necessary for this to work. banshee harass will also obliterate you.
There's no way to get storm, but archons are pretty good. I've been opening 2-gate robo against terran when I scout gas, and transitioning into archons in response to marine/tank/banshee with very good results. As long as you don't give enough time for bunkers to complete, just 1 archon supported by mostly zealots is enough to wreck havoc on the marines, which are the real threat in a 1-1-1 push. Zealots chew through the tanks, and a warp-in of stalkers near the end cleans up the banshees. Banshee harass is never even an issue when you have a fast obs, 3-4 stalkers, and later, HTs to feedback.
Against a delayed push, you can add extra HTs for feedback, and if things transition into a macro game instead, you're already on the path to charge and storm, which are exactly what you need for dealing with 2-base variants.
I'm still testing and refining things, but I'll probably post a guide in a few days, unless I can find a major flaw in this build.
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On August 23 2011 03:12 MrCon wrote:
MC did repel the first push, losing his nexus. This push was well executed, no flaw, so no "but the terran screwed up when the protoss crushed that push" excuse.
Too bad the replays aren't up, but could MC have crushed the 2nd push ? Intuitively I'd say yes, as he totally screwed up. Imo what happened is that he thought that he would crush it easily (as I thought myself) so he just didn't engage it properly.
Didn't waited for his charge.
Engaged in a choke point.
Sent his stalkers first who got stomped by siege fire, no answer to the banshee after that.
I don't remember how much time he had between the 2 pushes, what I remember is he had enough time to complete a nexus, build a council and research 75% of charge. Could he had not expanded (or even expanded), build a robobay, one colo and thermal lance ? Not sure, I have to see the replay.
One sure thing is that he could have waited for charge before engaging, iirc he had enough to crush the push, he had a ton of stalkers and zealots, at least 2 observers, perhaps some immortals I don't remember.
I think he had three Immortals that ended up being pretty useless, Charge research was not 75% done it was like 50% when he engaged, I don't think he could've stalled for it to finish. I think he could've held the 2nd push if he didn't have all that wasted money in TC + Charge, if that went into units instead. He could just barely have gotten a Colossus out, maybe that would've worked.
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On August 23 2011 03:37 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
Funny thing is that every time that a protoss holds the 1/1/1 protoss players start saying how "wrong" was the build executed. Also the he 2nd attack of Puma was just a desperate move but MC's greediness made him lose the game. Also why is no one discussing how socke hold Select's 1/1/1 with colossus or was it executed "wrong" because the terran lost?
+1
Oh and when a toss doesn't hold, its cause the "toss played perfectly and terran even made mistakes blablabla" even though that is far from the truth.
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On August 23 2011 03:37 Asmodeusz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 03:20 rpgalon wrote:On August 23 2011 03:12 MrCon wrote:
MC did repel the first push, losing his nexus. This push was well executed, no flaw, so no "but the terran screwed up when the protoss crushed that push" excuse.
actually, Puma researched cloak, but MC is so good that he was able to lose 0 probes, I would call that a flaw since cloak research = 1 more banshee in the push With raven, Puma was killing observers, forcing MC to waste gas and robo production time on more observers. The cloak wasn't a waste at all.
in the first push he didn't kill the observer before the engagement, MC was non-stop with immortal production.
If puma did not research cloack, the push would be stronger in that situation, that is what i'm arguing.
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On August 23 2011 03:37 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
Funny thing is that every time that a protoss holds the 1/1/1 protoss players start saying how "wrong" was the build executed. Also the he 2nd attack of Puma was just a desperate move but MC's greediness made him lose the game. Also why is no one discussing how socke hold Select's 1/1/1 with colossus or was it executed "wrong" because the terran lost?
It's the same reason this thread has 63 pages of generally low quality discussion and the thread on defending the 1:1:1 all-in has 14 pages of discussion...I've come to the opinion that most posters watch significantly more SC2 than they actually play.
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On August 23 2011 03:12 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I really feel like this relates back to the complete lack of effective Protoss harass.
So if Protoss expands, they die to the 1 base all in. Ok, I can see that being kind of fair.
If Protoss doesn't expand, Terran sieges outside their base and builds bunkers, and Protoss has very little chance of taking the contain on head-on.
Can you imagine if a 1 base Protoss parked their entire army outside of the base of a 1 base Terran? And then started dropping pylons and cannons outside their opponent's base? Terran would laugh, send 2 full medevacs to the Protoss main and win instantly.
Without the risk of a counter attack, contains are too good against Protoss. Sure, you'll never run up their ramp due to force fields, but they're sure as hell never getting down in either. Something that can be dropped out of a Warp Prisim that can actually be effective would be a great start.
Still not going to be happy if we don't get a fix before HotS though, but I'm sure HotS will help a ton.
Because the protoss has absolutely NO dropship like unit, that can be obtained faster and cheaper than a medivac and can land an endless stream of units? So the terran sets up his contain, you most likely have a robo, why not load up a warpprism with 2 zealots and 2 sentries, unload in his main, camp his production and forcefield the ramp should T try to get back into his base? Warp in stalkers next and zealot/sentry after that and you have infinite forcefield and go to town on his base.
On the topic:
I have no clue, but do you really have to chrono your warpgate research? Couldn't you just chrono probes greedily and sustain a higher production? If you want to be defensive you don't need the warp-in mechanic.
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What would that make this build stop? Increase marine costs or production time, maybe make bunkers unsalvageable?
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On August 23 2011 02:12 Aiurr wrote:
Can someone explain why do you count mules to the terran income but you do not count chronoboost on nexus?
As a protoss you can chronoboost what you want, so if you prefer it to be on warpgates instead of nexus then it's your choice that you have a low income... It's the same for terran: he has to choose a scan OR a mule.
I will enlighten you: MULES ignore SCV's when mining. So mules allow you to oversaturate a base. Whereas normally 24 workers extract the maximum income from 1 base terran can get more.
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On August 23 2011 03:19 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 01:18 CCAA wrote:On August 23 2011 01:14 Chronald wrote:
Look at MC v PuMa finals, 2/3 games PuMa did this all-in and MC had no hope, none. You can try to say he made mistakes, which is partially true, but what did PuMa have to do to force those mistakes? A-move across map, siege at natural, A-move into base. That's it.
The honest truth is that it is imbalanced, and there isn't any math that can refute this. The Korean Win-Rates prove this point. Blizzard will fix this unless they want to see a lot of professional players stop playing. you have to mention that MC failed hard  Yeah he shouldn't have picked Protoss. MC didn't play perfect, no one's denying that. NO ONE can play perfect, not even vs easy AI. Puma didn't do anything extraordinary to really "deserve" the win anyways. The winner should outplay the loser. I don't really care about small imbalances (BW was full of small imbalances) but the audience should always get the feeling that the winner outplayed the loser and I didn't get that feeling watching this series. It makes for poor spectator experience. Feel free to disagree with my assessment.
I agree with you. From a spoectators view all these all ins suck but really Game 2 just showed me how bad protoss really is. MC lands amazing storms out of shuttles, has positional advantage, economic advantage...
But it just did't matter.
PuMa lost like 8 medivak with like 50 units in them, and that doesn't cost him anything at all. MC lost shuttle with 3 HT and lost game. (BTW how ridiculous is that Protoss has to resort to about 5 extra micro steps just to get a storm off nowadays with shuttle?)
Terran lacks consequences for lost units, even lost workers like game 1 losing 20.
It takes amazing play to stop these MM and Hellion drops from Terran, but there's no real advantage gained by stopping them. Miss a couple Ghost and EMP + stim MMM wipes you out. If a storm hits...whatever, back up, don't engage, Medivak heal in like 10 seconds...damage doesn't count. Protoss can't run from stim MMMG.
I still go back to FF. Protoss live and die by it thus Blizzard gave protoss high cost low DPS units to not roll everyone and without it (EMP or 1/1/1 which negates it) they die. It's just too reliant of a mechanic and I don't think spectator balance will ever come as long as it's in the game.
Protoss will either look stupid OP as they roll trapped, cut in half armies or they get rolled.
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I recently noticed something very shocking...
In Game 1 Puma didn't even have Combat Shields the entire game! I dunno if thats intended cuz you have to swap the Tech Lab from the Starport or Factory to your Barracks and you will probably sacrifice a Banshee or a Siege Tank, but if this "strategy" has even the opportunity to improve and become even harder to stop, then I seriously doubt that this is balanced.
Jeeez as a Protoss player Iam geting nightmares right now.
What happens if the whole 1/1/1 tactic evolve to a point where the Terran player alter his strategy after his first push and swaps his tech again or go for a complete diffrent tech such as Ghosts during the second push ?
Inreality they would cancel one Banshee or Siege Tank (depending on the enemy composition) and build a Ghost Academy which is followed up by a quick Ghost for a single devastating EMP.
What happens if the Terran decides to boost his Starport by adding the Reactor to pump 2 Medivacs meanwhile conentraing on a moar Marine based play ?
oohhhhh....i will not sleep good tonight...
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On August 23 2011 03:50 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 03:12 TrickyGilligan wrote:
I really feel like this relates back to the complete lack of effective Protoss harass.
So if Protoss expands, they die to the 1 base all in. Ok, I can see that being kind of fair.
If Protoss doesn't expand, Terran sieges outside their base and builds bunkers, and Protoss has very little chance of taking the contain on head-on.
Can you imagine if a 1 base Protoss parked their entire army outside of the base of a 1 base Terran? And then started dropping pylons and cannons outside their opponent's base? Terran would laugh, send 2 full medevacs to the Protoss main and win instantly.
Without the risk of a counter attack, contains are too good against Protoss. Sure, you'll never run up their ramp due to force fields, but they're sure as hell never getting down in either. Something that can be dropped out of a Warp Prisim that can actually be effective would be a great start.
Still not going to be happy if we don't get a fix before HotS though, but I'm sure HotS will help a ton. Because the protoss has absolutely NO dropship like unit, that can be obtained faster and cheaper than a medivac and can land an endless stream of units? So the terran sets up his contain, you most likely have a robo, why not load up a warpprism with 2 zealots and 2 sentries, unload in his main, camp his production and forcefield the ramp should T try to get back into his base? Warp in stalkers next and zealot/sentry after that and you have infinite forcefield and go to town on his base.
Because like 1 banshee will completely shut that down? Protoss units just aren't that good from a drop perspective, there's nothing that's the equivalent of blue flame hellions, or even regular hellions. There's nothing even as effective as a zergling drop. Doing a little damage isn't enough in this situation, you have to force the Terran into pulling back or losing his main. Protoss simply can't force the Terran to make that choice, SCVs and whatever happens to be sitting around the base is enough to hold off a Protoss drop.
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How come I never see any Protoss pull workers until they're already dead? Maybe try FE, delay push for as long as possible and then pull workers from natural, spread them out and attack.
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On August 23 2011 04:03 bucckevin wrote:
How come I never see any Protoss pull workers until they're already dead? Maybe try FE, delay push for as long as possible and then pull workers from natural, spread them out and attack.
pull probes vs marines is a smart idea
never thought of that
that must be the solution to that
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On August 23 2011 03:47 hasuterrans wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 03:37 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
Funny thing is that every time that a protoss holds the 1/1/1 protoss players start saying how "wrong" was the build executed. Also the he 2nd attack of Puma was just a desperate move but MC's greediness made him lose the game. Also why is no one discussing how socke hold Select's 1/1/1 with colossus or was it executed "wrong" because the terran lost? It's the same reason this thread has 63 pages of generally low quality discussion and the thread on defending the 1:1:1 all-in has 14 pages of discussion...I've come to the opinion that most posters watch significantly more SC2 than they actually play.
This is a progaming website that is dedicated first and foremost to following games played at the professional level.
Not to mention that people who watch more games have better insights than people who play more games, since the games you play are completely irrelevant in a discussion about high level Korean play. In fact, the vast majority of the low quality posts in this thread are made by people who have injected their personal experiences and play into the subject matter.
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On August 23 2011 04:03 bucckevin wrote:
How come I never see any Protoss pull workers until they're already dead? Maybe try FE, delay push for as long as possible and then pull workers from natural, spread them out and attack.
Because Protoss players don't have MULEs, and thus they need 2 base economy to hope to hold a 1 base Terran. The reason you don't see this tactic is not because Ps like oGsMC and SlayerS_Alicia have never thought of your tactic, but because practice has shown it to be suicidally ineffective.
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I can't wait until time sorts this one out and we can stop hearing complaining about a build that's been around for ages.
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On August 23 2011 04:05 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 03:47 hasuterrans wrote:On August 23 2011 03:37 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
Funny thing is that every time that a protoss holds the 1/1/1 protoss players start saying how "wrong" was the build executed. Also the he 2nd attack of Puma was just a desperate move but MC's greediness made him lose the game. Also why is no one discussing how socke hold Select's 1/1/1 with colossus or was it executed "wrong" because the terran lost? It's the same reason this thread has 63 pages of generally low quality discussion and the thread on defending the 1:1:1 all-in has 14 pages of discussion...I've come to the opinion that most posters watch significantly more SC2 than they actually play. This is a progaming website that is dedicated first and foremost to following games played at the professional level. Not to mention that people who watch more games have better insights than people who play games, since the games you play are completely irrelevant in a discussion about high level Korean play. In fact, the vast majority of the low quality posts in this thread are made by people who have injected their personal experiences and play into the subject matter.
IMO
Playing with analysis/review >Watching>"blind" playing
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I play both Protoss and Zerg, and I find that Protoss are really quick to QQ.
I may be wrong, but the 1/1/1 has been popular only for something like 1 month, it's clearly not much. It's not comparable to the situations zerg have been in the past.
Don't get me wrong, I do think that the 1/1/1 is most likely OP, but it's way too soon to say that there is no solution.
Personnaly, I'm getting the +1armor upgrade, I think that it helps a lot. Plus gettting the forge allow to build cannons, if I scout heavy bio with no tank.Also, there are little things like stopping probe production at the perfect timing etc.
If I suspect a 1 base all in, I always cut probes and get more gateway around the 8min15 mark.
I'm just in diamond, it may be noobish, I don't pretend otherwise, but at least I don't think that Protoss have run out of options yet.
As far as I'm concerned, MC crushed the 1/1/1 push vs puma. The fact that he made mistakes later (such as investing in the unfinished charge) and lost, does not change the fact he defended the 1/1/1.
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On August 23 2011 04:01 TrickyGilligan wrote:
Because like 1 banshee will completely shut that down?
*Viking, I think you mean.
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On August 23 2011 03:55 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 03:19 Condor Hero wrote:On August 23 2011 01:18 CCAA wrote:On August 23 2011 01:14 Chronald wrote:
Look at MC v PuMa finals, 2/3 games PuMa did this all-in and MC had no hope, none. You can try to say he made mistakes, which is partially true, but what did PuMa have to do to force those mistakes? A-move across map, siege at natural, A-move into base. That's it.
The honest truth is that it is imbalanced, and there isn't any math that can refute this. The Korean Win-Rates prove this point. Blizzard will fix this unless they want to see a lot of professional players stop playing. you have to mention that MC failed hard Yeah he shouldn't have picked Protoss. MC didn't play perfect, no one's denying that. NO ONE can play perfect, not even vs easy AI. Puma didn't do anything extraordinary to really "deserve" the win anyways. The winner should outplay the loser. I don't really care about small imbalances (BW was full of small imbalances) but the audience should always get the feeling that the winner outplayed the loser and I didn't get that feeling watching this series. It makes for poor spectator experience. Feel free to disagree with my assessment. I agree with you. From a spoectators view all these all ins suck but really Game 2 just showed me how bad protoss really is. MC lands amazing storms out of shuttles, has positional advantage, economic advantage... But it just did't matter. PuMa lost like 8 medivak with like 50 units in them, and that doesn't cost him anything at all. MC lost shuttle with 3 HT and lost game. (BTW how ridiculous is that Protoss has to resort to about 5 extra micro steps just to get a storm off nowadays with shuttle?) Terran lacks consequences for lost units, even lost workers like game 1 losing 20. It takes amazing play to stop these MM and Hellion drops from Terran, but there's no real advantage gained by stopping them. Miss a couple Ghost and EMP + stim MMM wipes you out. If a storm hits...whatever, back up, don't engage, Medivak heal in like 10 seconds...damage doesn't count. Protoss can't run from stim MMMG. I still go back to FF. Protoss live and die by it thus Blizzard gave protoss high cost low DPS units to not roll everyone and without it (EMP or 1/1/1 which negates it) they die. It's just too reliant of a mechanic and I don't think spectator balance will ever come as long as it's in the game. Protoss will either look stupid OP as they roll trapped, cut in half armies or they get rolled.
Haha that game was a rollercoaster.
Casters: Oh wow MC blinked into the base and destroyed a lot of units. Nice storms. He dodged that EMP by bringin the HT back into the prism. Storm Drops. Puma's drops all denied. Denied the planetary fortress from going up. Up 2 more bases. More nice storms and feedback. Puma wasted EMP on sniping observer. Oh no, MC lost that warp prism. EMP hits. Oh no MC lost.
Everyone was so shocked and tried to rationalize it. They blamed it on upgrades when it was in fact 2/2 vs 3/2. Lulz.
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EPT
