EPT1 gate exp, into stargate and add on more gates.
The problem is the new style with the raven and banshee, witch is at this moment impossible to counter.
Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 52
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Dusen
Denmark68 Posts
1 gate exp, into stargate and add on more gates. The problem is the new style with the raven and banshee, witch is at this moment impossible to counter. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:26 Dusen wrote: the original 1/1/1 build marine,marauder, tank and medivac is countered so hard by like 5 phoenixs. 1 gate exp, into stargate and add on more gates. The problem is the new style with the raven and banshee, witch is at this moment impossible to counter. The problem is: Terran can easily deny scouting until Robo/Stargate tech is out that you have to coinflip. If you 1 Gate FE into Stargate to counter even the OLD 1-1-1 build, ANY other Terran build will crush you. If you don't, and he uses the 1-1-1, you lose outright anyway. | ||
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Dusen
Denmark68 Posts
I haven't tried getting 2 rax when i FE of 1 gate, have to admit that. But i guess that if you have the towers under control, and pump out a little more army than workers, you can hold it off. I'am just guessing, playing toss myselvf  | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:32 VirgilSC2 wrote: The problem is: Terran can easily deny scouting until Robo/Stargate tech is out that you have to coinflip. If you 1 Gate FE into Stargate to counter even the OLD 1-1-1 build, ANY other Terran build will crush you. If you don't, and he uses the 1-1-1, you lose outright anyway. Terran doesn't have that much control over what you can see. Any decent and willing protoss can deduce whether or not the Terran is making marauders, which pretty much leaves him with teching or expanding greedily. Even if you did go stargate blind, it definitely has functions against a standard bio army. They won't push until their mineral lines are defended, or they conclusively know they can sac 10+ SCV's to kill you, which is usually in response to ultra greedy toss' who don't follow up with any other tech. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:47 Tyrant0 wrote: Terran doesn't have that much control over what you can see. Any decent and willing protoss can deduce whether or not the Terran is making marauders, which pretty much leaves him with teching or expanding greedily. Even if you did go stargate blind, it definitely has functions against a standard bio army. They won't push until their mineral lines are defended. Polt often abuses the fact that no, you can't see if he's going marauders, by going 2rax reactor first and puts a bunker up, making his opponent think it's a 1-1-1. So the Protoss is forced to 1gate FE ASAP, and he then pushes with his 2rax and cancels the expo at worst and he's well ahead. | ||
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jinixxx123
543 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:26 Dusen wrote: the original 1/1/1 build marine,marauder, tank and medivac is countered so hard by like 5 phoenixs. 1 gate exp, into stargate and add on more gates. The problem is the new style with the raven and banshee, witch is at this moment impossible to counter. no , just no, from since the sc2 beta i used to do mass marine/tank/raven/banshee all in.. This is absolutely nothing new from terran. I am trying to remember what exactly caused terrans to stop doing it but i quite honestly cant remember. I know personally the reason i stopped doing it was because of extremely fast colosus rushes back in the day, but nowdays protoss's seem to rely on mass gateway units instead of fast colosus. So thats why their is a resurgence of this build. i want to see more protoss get colos faster when they see bunker go up, all the whining will stop | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:49 Yaotzin wrote: Polt often abuses the fact that no, you can't see if he's going marauders, by going 2rax reactor first and puts a bunker up, making his opponent think it's a 1-1-1. So the Protoss is forced to 1gate FE ASAP, and he then pushes with his 2rax and cancels the expo at worst and he's well ahead. 2 rax pushes can be held by a 1 gate though, unless you think you're going to pull it off close positions. | ||
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stilez
Mexico130 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:17 samd wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but how is this any difference from the Terran version of a 4gate? You protoss used to pull a strong timing build all the time, now you're getting the taste of one and the tears start flowing? Yeah, but you can actually defend a 4 gate easy if you scout it. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:49 jinixxx123 wrote: The problem with your theory is that Terran players already figured out how to crush 1 Base Colossus with this build: Bunker/Siege up and just contain you to 1 Base in a war of attrition that you will ALWAYS inevitably lose.no , just no, from since the sc2 beta i used to do mass marine/tank/raven/banshee all in.. This is absolutely nothing new from terran. I am trying to remember what exactly caused terrans to stop doing it but i quite honestly cant remember. I know personally the reason i stopped doing it was because of extremely fast colosus rushes back in the day, but nowdays protoss's seem to rely on mass gateway units instead of fast colosus. So thats why their is a resurgence of this build. i want to see more protoss get colos faster when they see bunker go up, all the whining will stop | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:49 jinixxx123 wrote: no , just no, from since the sc2 beta i used to do mass marine/tank/raven/banshee all in.. This is absolutely nothing new from terran. I am trying to remember what exactly caused terrans to stop doing it but i quite honestly cant remember. I know personally the reason i stopped doing it was because of extremely fast colosus rushes back in the day, but nowdays protoss's seem to rely on mass gateway units instead of fast colosus. So thats why their is a resurgence of this build. i want to see more protoss get colos faster when they see bunker go up, all the whining will stop People used to respond with a 4gate or 3gate void bust because 1-1-1 is an extremely greedy build. However Blizzard nerfed those responses so now Terran can hold any Protoss allin with 1rax reactor marines + bunkers. The response now, therefore, is to match the Terran's greed, with a nexus first or 1gate FE. Problem is, you have to commit to those before you know it's a 1-1-1, and they get punished hard if the Terran knows how to respond. Problem with collo is one of timing. The 1-1-1 hits when you have, at best, 1 collosus with range (without range banshees/tanks will demolish it), and like no other units at all because of rushing so fast to the ranged collo. So you just have like no units, and the Terran bunkers your nat while starting viking production and expanding. 2 rax pushes can be held by a 1 gate though, unless you think you're going to pull it off close positions. Can't hold the expo if they execute perfect imo. You won't die but you'll be behind. | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I'm sorry but what you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense Tyler. You're basically saying that this push works because Protoss players rely too much on 15nexus. But a lot of pro-players are agreeing to say that 15nexus IS a counter to 1-1-1. For example Select said during the interview after his game vs Killer that he lost the second game because 15nexus was a perfect counter to his all-in. I usually highly respect you're insight on the game, but in this case it seems like you're saying the complete opposite as everyone else. Do terrans do 1-1-1 to punish 15nexus or do Protosses do 15nexus because of 1-1-1 ? | ||
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Jacobs Ladder
United States1705 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:49 jinixxx123 wrote: no , just no, from since the sc2 beta i used to do mass marine/tank/raven/banshee all in.. This is absolutely nothing new from terran. I am trying to remember what exactly caused terrans to stop doing it but i quite honestly cant remember. I know personally the reason i stopped doing it was because of extremely fast colosus rushes back in the day, but nowdays protoss's seem to rely on mass gateway units instead of fast colosus. So thats why their is a resurgence of this build. i want to see more protoss get colos faster when they see bunker go up, all the whining will stop Did you read the op? It clearly (and IMO correctly) says that 1 base colossi doesn't work well because 2 can just hard contain you to death | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:51 Tyrant0 wrote: 2 rax pushes can be held by a 1 gate though, unless you think you're going to pull it off close positions. No they can't. People here should really only post when they know what they're talking about. Against 2Rax Reactor/TechLab you have to pull 1 million probes and they're going to die in like 3 seconds. | ||
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turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:26 Dusen wrote: the original 1/1/1 build marine,marauder, tank and medivac is countered so hard by like 5 phoenixs. 1 gate exp, into stargate and add on more gates. The problem is the new style with the raven and banshee, witch is at this moment impossible to counter. except that opening stargate rapes banshee openings? On August 22 2011 21:57 Binabik wrote: No they can't. People here should really only post when they know what they're talking about. Against 2Rax Reactor/TechLab you have to pull 1 million probes and they're going to die in like 3 seconds. jinro vs MC in some tourney game not so long ago. jinro did 2 rax with some scvs, MC did a 1 gate expand and held it | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
Can't hold the expo if they execute perfect imo. You won't die but you'll be behind. If the protoss executes perfectly he can hold as well. Even if hes forced to pull probes at one point to crush the push, he'll be able to remake them faster than T if terran intends on going to a mid game. Are only Terrans allowed to execute perfectly? :s No they can't. People here should really only post when they know what they're talking about. Against 2Rax Reactor/TechLab you have to pull 1 million probes and they're going to die in like 3 seconds. Bold assumption that I don't know what I'm talking about. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:56 DertoQq wrote: Do terrans do 1-1-1 to punish 15nexus or do Protosses do 15nexus because of 1-1-1 ? 15nexus is a metagame response to the 1-1-1. It's a shit build that Terran can easily kill if they scout it in time, it's only done because it's the only way to even close to reliably hold a 1-1-1. Tyler's post doesn't even talk about the 1-1-1, it's just general theorycraft and not applicable to this problem. If the protoss executes perfectly he can hold as well. Even if hes forced to pull probes at one point to crush the push, he'll be able to remake them faster than T if terran intends on going to a mid game. Are only Terrans allowed to execute perfectly? :s If both players execute perfectly Protoss will have to cancel the nexus. You simply don't have enough units. It is map dependent of course. On something like Shakuras, sure, you can hold it easily with FF. Xel'naga? No, you're cancelling it. | ||
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Sotamursu
Finland612 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:56 DertoQq wrote: I'm sorry but what you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense Tyler. You're basically saying that this push works because Protoss players rely too much on 15nexus. But a lot of pro-players are agreeing to say that 15nexus IS a counter to 1-1-1. For example Select said during the interview after his game vs Killer that he lost the second game because 15nexus was a perfect counter to his all-in. I usually highly respect you're insight on the game, but in this case it seems like you're saying the complete opposite as everyone else. Do terrans do 1-1-1 to punish 15nexus or do Protosses do 15nexus because of 1-1-1 ? You should be able to scout 15 nexus before you commit to 1-1-1. The basic OC opening is very versatile. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:00 Yaotzin wrote: To be honest, Tyler's post didn't even belong in this thread period.15nexus is a metagame response to the 1-1-1. It's a shit build that Terran can easily kill if they scout it in time, it's only done because it's the only way to even close to reliably hold a 1-1-1. Tyler's post doesn't even talk about the 1-1-1, it's just general theorycraft and not applicable to this problem. | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:00 Yaotzin wrote: 15nexus is a metagame response to the 1-1-1. It's a shit build that Terran can easily kill if they scout it in time, it's only done because it's the only way to even close to reliably hold a 1-1-1. It was kind of a rhetorical question because Tyler made it look like the opposite, but maybe I miss read his post. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:52 stilez wrote: Yeah, but you can actually defend a 4 gate easy if you scout it. lol "easy" 4 gate is still a strong build and takes a lot of time to learn how to hold a proper one off. The problem with this thread is all the damn terran haters out there who sit around all day looking for theorycraft to explain why THEY suck balls. 99% of the people in this topic would just as likely lose to 1-1-1 as a 2 rax marine all-in. This is a relatively new build and hasn't completely taken over the metagame yet. When you start to see this, or a variation of it, in nearly every PvT, then you can start talking about how it's "ridiculously OP." | ||
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