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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 12:10 Clog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:05 mutantmagnet wrote:
Archives Path.
Research charge only.
Get as many Templar and Stalkers as possible while getting an observer as well.
Charge Zealots are a soft counter to Mariens and tanks. DOn't have them sit outside your base but positon them near your base so they can surround the 1:1:1 push when it reaches your base. You'll want the Templar in a positon to protect your zealots from Banshee harass if the Terran is experienced enough to inspect the surrounding area before moving in and to snipe the Raven/Banshee if hovering over the tank and marines. You'll live or die based on how well the surround goes off. I would think that this is way too gas heavy... Council, Charge, Archives, HTs, Robo (for the obs), the actual obs, and you expect to still have much gas left for stalkers on a not-even 2 base economy? I mean I'm not the most qualified person here but that seems a bit much.
You are right but keep in mind I'm looking at worse case scenario where I assume Terran gets cloak. It is extremely rare for cloak to be researched and many times Ravens are used instead of banshees so robo doesn't need to be touched.
If you gamble on cloak not being researched you can just cut out robo and this possible defense is stable. If in the long run Terrans adapt to this defensive path to get cloak because it makes you economically unstable then we'll know just how strong this timing attack is.
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On August 22 2011 20:52 snowroller1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1? "Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen". "1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not. Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end. EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play. hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro
Please tell me the P build that requires a T to build 4 bunkers and a turret. That sounds amazing.
What would that be? 1base 8 gate + DT rush? lol
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On August 22 2011 20:52 snowroller1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1? "Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen". "1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not. Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end. EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play. hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro
....wait a minute here.
Putting up "3-4 Bunkers and a Turret" is what....225-250 Minerals. One Mule over its lifespan is....270 Minerals right? So that puts you on....even footing? Since when do terrans even need 3-4 Bunkers if they're 1-1-1ing? You need 2 maximum if you're on one base. If you're on two base, and the protoss is doing a one base all-in, you can scout it, and just put down 5 bunkers, hold it, and salvage them all for a cost of......125 minerals, and be in a two base vs one base situation.
As far as "as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its its easy to hold with good micro" I'll offer two words. Show me.
Show me tournament level play where this holds true.
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What about early hallucinations ? It permits to scan early game way more efficiently than sacrificing overlords for zerg for example, and it would permit to go for 4G or another all in build..?.
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Maybe us Protoss will have to go Hallucination (maybe chronoboosted) before Warp Gate vs T just to see what they are doing. Doesn't seem like a good answer though.
Edit: hah, post above me.
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On August 22 2011 21:03 Mandalor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:52 snowroller1 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1? "Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen". "1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not. Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end. EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play. hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro Please tell me the P build that requires a T to build 4 bunkers and a turret. That sounds amazing. What would that be? 1base 8 gate + DT rush? lol
It`s the famous 11gate transition into double warp prism build. You never heard of ?xD
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On August 22 2011 20:57 Zowon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1? "Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen". "1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not. Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end. EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play. Your saying that terrans can 1rax FE and 14 CC and be almost completely safe? Dude, I'd like to see your statistics on this.
Yes. On a 4 player map, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying. First please note I said "possibly even 14CC" which would imply that it may NOT be true. For the low price of 200 Minerals, you can 1 Rax FE with your CC in your main, and hold your ramp with two bunkers, and a turret against.....what....EVERY Protoss 1-Base play? Meanwhile, to hold our ramp with constant Forcefields, Protoss players invest in....4 sentries, which is 200 Minerals AND 400 gas.
So yes, I don't even think I need to bother a way to FIND statistics to prove that.
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On August 22 2011 21:02 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro Well you could just scan and then know whether it's an all-in or not and regardless even if you make 8 bunkers its only 200 minerals at the end of the day (350 with turret) which is far less than going down the wrong tech tree/cutting probes for 2-3 minutes.
scan 220 minerals, robo + 225 minerals + gas? whats your problem?
you are so silly young kid. if you spend 800 minerals + turret at the start youll be sitting on max 2 barracks against a macro toss with 4-5 gates and tech, how do you expect terran to win there?
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On August 22 2011 05:49 CryingPoo wrote:
Q : You can engage in Terran army before they contain you and hold it off
A : Very true, but then the second wave is impossible to hold off. They will be able to upto three waves with Marines + Banshees (or Tanks but Banshees are often used) from their main. You would have lost most of your sentries, stalkers or zealots then by the time the second wave comes, you can't handle the DPS of group of Marines. Suppose you have blocked all those waves, your minerals would've ran out too, Terran floats to a natural expo and keeps on mining and produce. This is often seen in many games of Gisado's stream.
This is my only problem with this post. What says you can't do a 3gate expand, use your units to crush the push when the tanks are unsieged, and not run out of money since you expanded?
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this is a build you can talk about alot ... the biggest problem is probably that it only gets strong at the highest level of play. I for example can't say anything about it ... Since i have no problem against this.
(due to my different playstyle and me being far away from fighting pros  ).
If you deny those mules the terran has the same income as you have.
What alot of toss players forget to take into consideration. That the mules count as 5 full workers. Not those workers that are ineffective after you reach 16+ on the minerals. So if a terran goes up to 30 workers like the toss and pulls 10 with them. They still should have close to the same income then the toss heh. (so as long as the toss stays one base the terran can pull workers if they overeco)
So its not really an allin based on the eco.
The biggest thing is probably that marines and tanks suck unmicroed. and that the terran base is without defenses. I like to abuse this with a few zealots or mule sniping with either phoenix or a warp prism. That makes the attack a true allin, but i guess a good player could handle this 100 times better.
Another thing i like to try (still working on my micro for that unit D: ) is the voidray, sniping marines all day long x3. (and negate offensive pdds).
But harassment was always the best way to be save against any timing attack. All you had to do was do enough damage before the push timing arrives. And a voidray pretty muhc only has to kill a freshly called down mule and 2 marines.
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On August 22 2011 21:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:57 Zowon wrote:On August 22 2011 20:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1? "Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen". "1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not. Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end. EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play. Your saying that terrans can 1rax FE and 14 CC and be almost completely safe? Dude, I'd like to see your statistics on this. Yes. On a 4 player map, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying. First please note I said "possibly even 14CC" which would imply that it may NOT be true. For the low price of 200 Minerals, you can 1 Rax FE with your CC in your main, and hold your ramp with two bunkers, and a turret against.....what....EVERY Protoss 1-Base play? Meanwhile, to hold our ramp with constant Forcefields, Protoss players invest in....4 sentries, which is 200 Minerals AND 400 gas. So yes, I don't even think I need to bother a way to FIND statistics to prove that.
i want to see force fields to block scvs and blink against your bunkers
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On August 22 2011 21:04 ArhK wrote:
What about early hallucinations ? It permits to scan early game way more efficiently than sacrificing overlords for zerg for example, and it would permit to go for 4G or another all in build..?.
I guess if they'd make it so that you could upgrade Hallucination and WG research at the same time this could help, as it stands tho, getting hallucination before WG research probably means having to forgo any WG strat as it will be horribly late, and doing it after defeats the purpose as your scouting will be too late to truly adapt to the incomming strategy.
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On August 22 2011 21:04 ArhK wrote:
What about early hallucinations ? It permits to scan early game way more efficiently than sacrificing overlords for zerg for example, and it would permit to go for 4G or another all in build..?.
1 - Hallucination cost more than an overlord
2 - Hallucination come AFTER your 4-gate, so there is no point scouting if you already choose to 4gate.
3 - 4-gate won't work vs 1-1-1 (or any kind of all-in for that matter)
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On August 22 2011 12:12 tarath wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:05 mutantmagnet wrote:On August 22 2011 08:48 legaton wrote:
The 1-1-1 build is basically the same thing that the tasteless build from beta, an one base siege tank/marine/banshee/raven all-in. It was a strong strategy in beta, but it was equilibrated by the fact it was extremely risky for terrans, as it could be countered by a 4gate or a 3gate/Stargate. Those two build orders were deadly against a 1-1-1 because the terran player had little to no units early, because he was building 3 buildings at the same time. Therefore, most terrans preferred to a more conservative style, to defend against early VR harrass or a 4gate push.
Both the 4gate (zealot timing, Warpgate tech) and the voidray were nerfed. Therefore, those openings don't work anymore as you don't have that early timing against a terran that's teching. Now, it has become a risk free B.O. for terran players in close positions.
The real problems is that you can't "buff" protoss again because it would put that race on an even foot with terran, but zerg would get raped as they have zero harass options in the early game (except for one base baneling, and that's really bad).
Sadly, i think the game is just fucked because they created a beatiful race that i love to play, terran, but never developed protoss and zerg enough.
Now, i believe the only solution would be a new protoss unit, and that unit is the reaver. Protoss needs a high risk/high damage unit that can be used to break contains. It is also good as a fast reaver could be used to harass and it would be a good opening anyways. On the other hand, it is risky enough as reavers required tons and tons of micro and babysitting, and if you killed the shuttle, it was dead in seconds. Of course, they should bring back the stupid AI as an intelligent reaver scarab would be just too powerful. Bring back the Broodwar reaver (and erase the Colossus, it sucks anyway). Good analysis but I don't like the conclusion. Protoss can fight 1:1:1 with what they have. 1:1:1 revolves around a strong mix of complimentary units marines, tanks and banshees/raven. The best counter to marines or colossus. Best counter to raven/banshees are one Templar backed up by stalkers.BEst counter to tanks are immortals. The problem with with beating 1:1:1 with all these units is that the cost to reach all of this tech is two expensive compared to building a single factory and starport. You have to invest in structures more than double the gas to have your best 1:1:1 counters. That means you have to specialize in robo or archives. I have a few ideas on how to possibly make either one work and ideas like these should be attempted and exhausted before saying 1:1:1 is broken. Robo path Research Hallucination and only get one sentry. Get Immortal and Collossus or Collossus and Thermal Lance if the push timing feels slow. WHen the attak is coming engage in the middle if you have an Immortal or engage at your base if you went Thermal lance. In this fight you will have hallucinated collosus. The hopeful outcome with the midfield aggression is to kill off the tank with the Immortal or keep pulling back while the colluss does some spalsh to the marines. The outcome you want to force with the infront of base defense is to hold out long enough for thermal lance become a neutralizing factor to marines. In both engagements the fake robo unit is supposed to force an extra scan which reduces the power of replenshing your marine count with Mule. Archives Path. Research charge only. Get as many Templar and Stalkers as possible while getting an observer as well. Charge Zealots are a soft counter to Mariens and tanks. DOn't have them sit outside your base but positon them near your base so they can surround the 1:1:1 push when it reaches your base. You'll want the Templar in a positon to protect your zealots from Banshee harass if the Terran is experienced enough to inspect the surrounding area before moving in and to snipe the Raven/Banshee if hovering over the tank and marines. You'll live or die based on how well the surround goes off. I don't get how hallucination will help, the build very often includes a raven... You're just gambling that he doesn't bring a raven? You have to get hallucination way before you can be sure he's not going to make a raven. Also for the archive path, what if he does cloak variation? Plan is just to lose?
You're right that hallucinate is nearly useless against 1:1:1 with the Raven instead of Banshee but overtime if the robo defense proves to be a strong counter against 1:1:1 with Banshee it helps constrain the build and puts some mental pressure on the Terran. I'm also hoping by spending 200 gas on Sentries instead of the 300-400 we typically see in these engagements they'll be able to squeeze out another collosus or that first immortal which might be able to compete with marines and tanks regardless of the presence of the raven which can only throw down an auto-turret and give vision to the high ground.
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On August 22 2011 21:11 snowroller1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:02 Huntz wrote:hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro Well you could just scan and then know whether it's an all-in or not and regardless even if you make 8 bunkers its only 200 minerals at the end of the day (350 with turret) which is far less than going down the wrong tech tree/cutting probes for 2-3 minutes. scan 220 minerals, robo + 225 minerals + gas? whats your problem? you are so silly young kid. if you spend 800 minerals + turret at the start youll be sitting on max 2 barracks against a macro toss with 4-5 gates and tech, how do you expect terran to win there? What are you spending 800 Minerals on again? The Bunkers? That you salvage so they only actually cost you 200?
The sad point is, Terrans actually factor in the minerals they don't gain from a MULE as a LOSS in income, when in reality, in a 1 Base vs 1 Base situation, it just leaves them equal with their opponent.
If this Protoss is going for a 1 Base All-In, how does he afford 5 gates plus ANY tech?
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On August 22 2011 17:47 rareh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:22 ToastieNL wrote:On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. One base war of nutricion vs Terran? Sure as hell you'd lose that, Terran floats his OC over to the natural, you create a Nexus at 400$, you are 60 secs and 400 moneyzz behind. gg MC did the best thing he could possibly do. Puma didn't do that... Why would u build a nexus if terran is doing an aggressive push and his base is almost mined out ? Why not counter attack and supply block terran ? Why not force-field Puma's ramp ? Why no colossus ? So many mistakes from MC. If puma was investing in his economy instead of trying to do another push, then the nexus would be justifiable. You don't counter a push with probes and a nexus... same goes for every race.
everything you said is wrong, im sorry, try to read it again
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On August 22 2011 21:02 Huntz wrote:Show nested quote +hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro Well you could just scan and then know whether it's an all-in or not and regardless even if you make 8 bunkers its only 200 minerals at the end of the day (350 with turret) which is far less than going down the wrong tech tree/cutting probes for 2-3 minutes.
The thing about bunkers, isn't the total ammount of resources you are spending after you salvage them, you can't use 2+ bunkers without delaying your tech significantly because you don't have 300 minerals at that time.
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On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing.
One of the smartest players to grace these forums speak, and hardly anybody listens. There are more posts on that stupid water bottle that MeanMike posted than Tyler's insight.
Come on, people, we're better than this.
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On August 22 2011 21:11 snowroller1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:57 Zowon wrote:On August 22 2011 20:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1? "Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen". "1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not. Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end. EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play. Your saying that terrans can 1rax FE and 14 CC and be almost completely safe? Dude, I'd like to see your statistics on this. Yes. On a 4 player map, that is EXACTLY what I'm saying. First please note I said "possibly even 14CC" which would imply that it may NOT be true. For the low price of 200 Minerals, you can 1 Rax FE with your CC in your main, and hold your ramp with two bunkers, and a turret against.....what....EVERY Protoss 1-Base play? Meanwhile, to hold our ramp with constant Forcefields, Protoss players invest in....4 sentries, which is 200 Minerals AND 400 gas. So yes, I don't even think I need to bother a way to FIND statistics to prove that. i want to see force fields to block scvs and blink against your bunkers
If you're still on the early stage of your 1 Rax FE where you actually still only have 1 Rax, and he has Blink off of one base, you're not playing the game correctly and should not be allowed to comment on balance in any respect.
Every Sentry a Protoss player makes is one less attacking unit. Factor it in like that. Furthermore, by the time an attack comes, due to the amount of time required for WarpGate research, you WILL be producing off of 3 Barracks, which is more than enough to hold any sort of Protoss poke, especially on the high ground, with two Bunkers and SCVs.
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On August 22 2011 21:18 Pl4t0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. One of the smartest players to grace these forums speak, and hardly anybody listens. There are more posts on that stupid water bottle that MeanMike posted than Tyler's insight. Come on, people, we're better than this. Nobody is "listening" because there's nothing very insightful there. Paraphrased, this comes out at "Protoss is greedy in the current meta-game and this is a build meant to punish that. I think once a counter to 1-1-1 is discovered, it will be obsolete"
He offers NO insight whatsoever on HOW to stop this build. In a sense, this post was completely and utterly useless.
EDIT: I'd like to add a bit more here:
In the middle of this post Tyler waxes on how 1 Gate Robo and 1 Gate Stargate provide scouting while allowing for an economically sound mid-game, which has NO POINT in this thread, as there is no midgame if you go 1 Gate Robo or 1 Gate Stargate against the build this thread is about.
He then transitions into saying that "rushing for information remains the most reliable way to get to the midgame on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter the midgame" which is actually, completely wrong against this build, as even if you blind counter with the current supposed counters to this build, and he USES it, you still cannot hold if you are at equal skill level with your opponent UNLESS he makes grievous errors.
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