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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 19:15 Radook wrote:It so fun to see that two pros give their opinion about the build and thorzain even comment on the games that was played but people just keep rambling on without even reading it 
tbh we have yet to see a pro hold it in an important match. I value Tyler's opinion and he might be right with what he said, but we've yet to see it happen in a tournament game. Also, while Tyler and Thorzain feel like it's possible to hold it, we have (at least!) as many korean pros say otherwise. Tyler and Thorzain are great, but MC and MVP are arguably more knowledgeable.
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On August 22 2011 19:15 Radook wrote:It so fun to see that two pros give their opinion about the build and thorzain even comment on the games that was played but people just keep rambling on without even reading it
Aside from Thorzain's analysis of the MC games, what both of them said essentially comes down to "if you scout and prepare for it, you should be able to defend". The problem a lot of people have, is that, in GSL level games, we continuously see Protoss players knowing it's coming, executing one of the "correct" responses, and still getting rolled. There's literally not a single GSL game where a Protoss defends it without the Terran making some kind of huge blunder.
This was literally never the case with any all-in in SC2, ever. So, I really do think there is serious cause for concern here. You don't need to necessarily think it's imbalanced, but just shrugging all of this off and claiming it's completely fine is willful ignorance at best.
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Thing is, a Terran can have near perfect information about what the Protoss is doing - they will always have an SCV in your main long before you can have a Stalker out, they have the option to follow that up with a scan if they are worried afterwards, or even simply running a stimmed Marauder into your base.
As Protoss, you have absolutely no way of scouting the opponent's early game builds, AND you HAVE to choose the correct opening to be able to fend off the potential all ins or keep yourself even for a macro game. There isn't a single 'safe' build you can use, and you cannot, no matter what you do, actually have the scouting needed to establish what your opponent is doing to react correctly.
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I think it's okay as you can scout for marauders and if terran gets a bunker, any hidden 2rax/3rax will be delayed. The problem imo is if terran goes for something a little less uncommon such as a hellion drop.
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On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing.
the only unfair thing i can see is that terrans come away with fast expend, zergs can as well and protoss cant.
after so many nervs against the "playstyle" of protoss (made alot tactics not longer successfull) its 1 more stratetgy to the graveyard and when you only have 1-2 tactics you can play, for me game starts to being boring after somet ime
variance makes the game as good as it is
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On August 22 2011 19:57 Latedi wrote:
I think it's okay as you can scout for marauders and if terran gets a bunker, any hidden 2rax/3rax will be delayed. The problem imo is if terran goes for something a little less uncommon such as a hellion drop.
You can't even actually scout for Marauders on a 4-player map, though - not unless you get lucky and guess their spawn position. And then the techlab could be a reaper rather than a Marauder opening, too etc. Or they could always close up their entrance with a second supply depot if they want to leave you in the dark.
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On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way.
quoting so people can read analysis by somebody whos actually good
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if plenty of pro ppl say that 1-1-1 is litle OP that give some more adventage than other 2 racis i think something need to change in that build (to nerf it) ...hope new patch 1.4 will come sone...so will see..
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On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way.
I hope Blizzard lets this play out longer instead of listening to the kneejerk community feedback.
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On August 22 2011 20:07 humbre wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. quoting so people can read analysis by somebody whos actually good
I don't understand why MC would think he would expand though? He just lost half his scvs and MC's nexus would be much quicker than his CC.
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idk me and my teammate (both of us Terran's) have a lot of builds we use all of which can be effective as any well thought out build can be. Right now i feel its a phase much like when zerg found out FEing every game is ideal for macro output; blue flames are actually good but players deal with that better and better (tvt its still a mess). protoss using zealot archon was tough for a bit. 111 was popular for a long while. However i feel it left the meta game except in tvt for the most part for a long while. give it a while and people will learn to hold it off too. As for scouting; I understand P and Z's frustration with terrans ability to scan. However when we do scan i feel we lose our strong hold in early game by sacrificing one mule. if we use it terran's must read the enemies build very well and fight for map vision and prepare properly.
i feel zergs agility with units nullifies that scouting problem with appropriate map control. if an reaper or a hellion pops out you still gather good info my counting numbers and when the leave(in game time).
i feel protoss needs to open robo always with a one zealot one stalker one sentry opening with light pressure. im sorry but it always hits b4 concussive and T must have a bunker up to hold properly without a fast marauder (remember then T has a tough time defending fast stargate tech).
scouting is important to see the base and what tech and how much of it is out (i agree) however map vision gives you the ability to prepare very well. and i also think there is much more to consider in the game still.
I am a masters player on a masters team. we are not pro by no means and i by no means think the pro's opinion are worse then mine.
my personal opinion is there are a lot more HIGH level Terran's that dedicate their time to this game.
Protoss and Zerg all have WONDROUS talent and players but not enough of them ( again in my opinion) to get super improvement as fast due to the amount of terrans out there (at least in S.korea)
the 1.1.1 build i am not amazing at (the all in) like my teammate is. however myself and the rest of the team (6 in total) agree that the 111 all in is easy to hold off. (once again we are not at the skill levels of pros; this is still all opinion based off the games we have practiced).
some builds we feel work VERY well
3 gate stargate (phoenix build; use much like mutas and snipe tanks with some well placed ff's and zealot bait ( some stalkers are needed for 2nd wave)
1 gate fe as said
1 gate robo (sentry opening) add +2 gates when able)
3 gate dt rush
3 gate blink
3 gate robo blink (much harder to use)
4 gate blink all in
with blink i like to say that you would walk in and snipe a tank and or banshee then blink out however im not a protoss player this is what a teammate feels.
As a Terran player im becoming very frustrated in players constantly think said race is op or a build is op. Every time i notice a complaint it all come down to scouting. apart of that is map control. and fast and mobile unit is viable for that. ALL races have much to improve b4 (i think) we will see imbalance. some pro's styles just do very well vs. another one. that does not make said build op.
Again i feel itll take much more time to really see. But who knows im not very talented myself yet. I could be very wrong.
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I personally feel that even if you know it's coming and you prepare for it, this still is an incredibly hard fight for protoss. You have to cross your fingers and hope the terran screws his micro.
Because with the 1/1/1 there is plently of micro available, with PDD, banshees, Tanks, and marines (+stim). I honestly feel like a terran with perfect micro could still be able to out micro a well prepared toss. I'm not a top terran or top protoss so I might be totally wrong.
But I really feel like 1/1/1 offer a micro potential so huge that the only hope for the opponent is capitalizing on any small mistakes.
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On August 22 2011 20:18 ProxyKnoxy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:07 humbre wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. quoting so people can read analysis by somebody whos actually good I don't understand why MC would think he would expand though? He just lost half his scvs and MC's nexus would be much quicker than his CC.
for me it was also obvious puma is going to all in one last time since he was so far behind, mc just overcommited to tech/nexus/making probes instead of making units and holding the attack then winning. he made bad judgement which costed him the game now people jumping on OP bandwagon while in fact mc threw away that game.
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On August 22 2011 19:54 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
Thing is, a Terran can have near perfect information about what the Protoss is doing - they will always have an SCV in your main long before you can have a Stalker out, they have the option to follow that up with a scan if they are worried afterwards, or even simply running a stimmed Marauder into your base.
As Protoss, you have absolutely no way of scouting the opponent's early game builds, AND you HAVE to choose the correct opening to be able to fend off the potential all ins or keep yourself even for a macro game. There isn't a single 'safe' build you can use, and you cannot, no matter what you do, actually have the scouting needed to establish what your opponent is doing to react correctly.
Hint: if you see a stimmed marauder in your base, its not a 1/1/1.
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it all comes down to mules. nerf them already. a 18 minute game with a 1basing terran on 19 scvs killing a protoss like MC just doesnt feel right.
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On August 22 2011 20:05 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 19:57 Latedi wrote:
I think it's okay as you can scout for marauders and if terran gets a bunker, any hidden 2rax/3rax will be delayed. The problem imo is if terran goes for something a little less uncommon such as a hellion drop. You can't even actually scout for Marauders on a 4-player map, though - not unless you get lucky and guess their spawn position. And then the techlab could be a reaper rather than a Marauder opening, too etc. Or they could always close up their entrance with a second supply depot if they want to leave you in the dark.
The reaction you should have to a reaper expo is the same as that of a marauder expo... sit in your base with a few more than usual gateway units and mind your stalkers... If you waltz up their ramp and watch what units kill yours you can often infer what they're doing to a degree, and a three depot wall just begs for stargate pressure...
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On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way.
please tell me the builds you are talking about
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What do you guys think about going heavy stalkers, and trying to attack the terran mid way through the map just to bait a pdd? Try to waste raven energy, just like zerg does with sentries?
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On August 22 2011 20:30 Timestreamer wrote:
What do you guys think about going heavy stalkers, and trying to attack the terran mid way through the map just to bait a pdd? Try to waste raven energy, just like zerg does with sentries?
It can delay the push a bit, but once the army is in front of your natural the stalkers are useless, and terran nowadays have good ways to deal with it
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On August 22 2011 20:23 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 19:54 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
Thing is, a Terran can have near perfect information about what the Protoss is doing - they will always have an SCV in your main long before you can have a Stalker out, they have the option to follow that up with a scan if they are worried afterwards, or even simply running a stimmed Marauder into your base.
As Protoss, you have absolutely no way of scouting the opponent's early game builds, AND you HAVE to choose the correct opening to be able to fend off the potential all ins or keep yourself even for a macro game. There isn't a single 'safe' build you can use, and you cannot, no matter what you do, actually have the scouting needed to establish what your opponent is doing to react correctly. Hint: if you see a stimmed marauder in your base, its not a 1/1/1.
Hint: Stupid comments don't make you look cool.
If you see a stimmed marauder in your base you still have no idea whether it's a Marauder expand, a 2rax pressure, a 3 rax medivac allin, or some variation of thereof?
As for saying that Blink Stalkers, of any variation, or a DT rush counters 1/1/1... I can just sigh at that. Raven completely negates any possibilities of that working.
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EPT
