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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 17:22 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. One base war of nutricion vs Terran? Sure as hell you'd lose that, Terran floats his OC over to the natural, you create a Nexus at 400$, you are 60 secs and 400 moneyzz behind. gg MC did the best thing he could possibly do.
Puma didn't do that...
Why would u build a nexus if terran is doing an aggressive push and his base is almost mined out ?
Why not counter attack and supply block terran ? Why not force-field Puma's ramp ? Why no colossus ? So many mistakes from MC.
If puma was investing in his economy instead of trying to do another push, then the nexus would be justifiable.
You don't counter a push with probes and a nexus... same goes for every race.
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On August 22 2011 17:30 Jono7272 wrote:
Anyone able to translate MC's new twitter post on it?
Also tried google translate, it seems he's saying he could've done better, the poisonous insect thing has to be a bad translation, can't wait to see what he's actually trying to say.
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On August 22 2011 17:33 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:28 enecateReAP wrote:On August 22 2011 17:24 DertoQq wrote:On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
1/1/1 has been defeated several times.
Recent examples:
xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 .
Genius did it against thorzain in gstl.
MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.)
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. You obviously don't understand simple things, how you can you even judge when "they play better than their opponent" ? I don't even know why I'm even trying to respond, ignorant comments like that are probably part of TL  Uhm...its true, he has observers out and chose to expand insted of commiting to staying alive, even though he had every opportunity to see Puma's army. Having a rough economy is better than just dying, beleive it or not. You know, if this is a one base all-in that you can defend, and still not be able to expand afterwards, then isn't that enough reason to nerf it? The fact that a Terran can force you to 1base till you mine out, isn't that absolutely fucking retarded? Seriously, even if this build was defendable off 1 base, it would still be stupid is as hell, and subject to a nerf because it fucks up the game too much. Stuff was nerfed for far less in the past.
That game was retarded, but people cant really act like MC didn't make a mistake. He did insanely well holding off the first push, then the 2nd push he very much underestimated. He coudl've slowed the push insanely much, by not camping at his natural.if he had say stayed on Puma's Xel naga, he could've forced 2-3 sieges before puma got to his natural. Reason why he didn't do this is I believe banshee's, he was afraid to split his army up, but he could've gained like upto 2 warpins from this and ton of time to finish charge. Also the engagement itself was sloppy, the immos had to walk around the stalkers so didnt kill the tanks very fast, stalkers were hurt before the engagement and it just wasnt as insanely well played like he did at first push.
That all being said, I as a terran player do find 1/1/1 a bit ridiculous, I just don't have any idea how Blizzard could possibly nerf it. All the units themselves are fine, the combination itself is fine, it's just this exact timing that toss simply cannot hold.
Edit: Heck I hadn't even thought of ff on puma's ramp. It could've slowed puma down insanely much, though it would've been 1-2 sacrificial sentries(due to siege tanks), but on 4 gas, every 15 sec MC makes ~120 gas, so yer...
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I have a good idea, why not reuse the marine range upgrade from BW? delays their push etc? It will give stalkers an advantage in the early game.
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I just want to say that 111-all-in is not fair due to the fact that Protoss needs to play 110% perfectly while Terran can afford to make mistakes, lose their army, lots of scv and still can compete economically, rebuild their army much faster, and win.
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I think the key to stopping this is:
- Getting out 2 colossus without range.
- Engaging outside your choke, so you can engage without running into all siege tanks sieged + bunkers being built.
I am not so sure that 'early expand' is the only viable way to play against this ... it somewhat reminds me of PvP in many ways, where the first to expand often loses because they will for some time be behind on tech AND units.
I wonder if not staying on 1 base a bit longer is more useful, in that you can easier keep safe from banshee harass and can scout with your observer. Also, if your opponent expands, you may be able to counter push all in quite effectively unless he switches into lots of vikings instead of banshee raven.
The counter to colossus is flank with stim + marauders (weak), or vikings (stronger). They counter marine SCV (strong), and doesn't do too badly against unsieged tanks either.
What Terrans are doing with 1-1-1 is investing extremely heavily into damage units with supporting tech.
I am not sure that the 'right' counter to it is investing heavily into econ and later tech ... to counter the all in that are coming (in waves).
The backbone of the push is marine scv tank. With banshee, and possibly cloak and or raven with PDD which means you can't completely focus on just building zealots etc to take out the ground units.
But if you:
1) Engage the first time somewhat away from your base, so that PDD doesn't cover your choke.
2) Have splash units to kill the marines / push into the tanks.
It seems to me that you should be able to come out on top in the engagement.
The problem then is of course, if you aren't able to counter push if the terran aborts and expand before you - you might just have put yourself in an unwinnable situation.
I am very interested in seeing the PvT games in code S that remains this season ... if no solution is found, I think a nerf might be in order ...
Maybe:
1) Revert warpgate nerf.
2) PDD lasts a shorter time.
In addition:
This isn't something new ... it's what Z have had to work against with Terran for quite some time. If the first all in fails, Terran can all in again and win unless you scout & is sure that no expand is coming. Because if you continue to tech and gain econ, you will lose to the 2nd or 3rd all in. It's the strength of mules, and just how the race works ... Terran all ins are more powerful than the other races, always have been imho. Which may or may not be unbalanced in itself.
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On August 22 2011 17:41 Doler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:38 roymarthyup wrote:
i actually applaud puma for doing 1-1-1 in the finals
puma even made some mistakes in his 1-1-1 and they werent perfect. puma got supply capped early game and had 5 marines queue'ed at a single rax early game, could have easily put that to better use to produce a stronger push
i wonder how the hell a toss can stop a perfect 1-1-1 when puma's sloppy 1-1-1 still crushed MC who went stargate blink to counter it
EDIT: we call it 1-1-1, however puma did a variation where he got 2 raxes instead of a reactored rax. puma did a 2-1-1 but its pretty much the same
i applaud puma for doing the 1-1-1 however, because it needs to be done in high level tournaments for us to see if there really is any way to stop it. and if it keeps happening, then blizzard needs to see it in high level scenarios to really know how to fix it It's already happening in every high level tournament in korea, what more needs to happen?
what needs to happen is the following
a couple more weeks (id say 5+ weeks) of the 1-1-1 being used every tvp series will eventually reach a point where every protoss knows its coming and must find a way to deal with it
eventually, 1 of 2 things will happen
1) a protoss will find a safe opening that can beat a perfect 1-1-1 after scouting a 1-1-1 is coming,
and this safe build must also be equal to a 2rax expand (where both players are relatively equal in strength and both have map presence),
and naturally this safe build will be weak to a 1rax expand because by the time the midgame hits the terran should have a economic advantage and more power on the map, however 1rax expand should still be beatable with the safe build but would requires the toss to aggressively scout every time the terran takes a new base and the toss use the defenders advantage to survive against the superior terran economy and the protoss must be defensive and stay even bases with the terran only expanding when he knows the terran is taking another base and the toss should turtle and stay even on bases and max out and eventually get to a point where its a endgame scenario and the battle comes down to endgame decisions
2) no safe build is found, and protoss are only able to beat a perfect 1-1-1 by using a blind counter build that is auto-lose to a 2rax expand
id say 1-1-1 is not used enough in high level play YET (but its getting very very close to it) in order to decide its imbalanced.
but it is getting very very close to the point where id say its imbalanced.
pretty soon 1-1-1 will get to the point where its so damn rampant that every toss needs to think about every possible way to make a safe build.
eventually a safe build will be found, or if one doesnt exist, eventually that will become apparent too
give it 5 more weeks. if after 5 weeks there is no safe build found against terran that is safe against everything, and 1-1-1 is the thing messing with protoss options, then id think blizzard would figure out a way to fix it by tweaking something
basically it comes down to this
protoss has no build thats safe against everything
terran has builds that are safe against everything, and also terran has coinflip builds
this means terran has the option of going 1-1-1, and if the protoss DIDNT use a blind counter build he loses
terran has this power, but terran also has the option of using a safe build, where as the protoss does not have the option of using a safe build and he must coinflip every game and guess if 1-1-1 is coming or not
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On August 22 2011 17:48 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:33 Toadvine wrote:On August 22 2011 17:28 enecateReAP wrote:On August 22 2011 17:24 DertoQq wrote:On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
1/1/1 has been defeated several times.
Recent examples:
xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 .
Genius did it against thorzain in gstl.
MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.)
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. You obviously don't understand simple things, how you can you even judge when "they play better than their opponent" ? I don't even know why I'm even trying to respond, ignorant comments like that are probably part of TL Uhm...its true, he has observers out and chose to expand insted of commiting to staying alive, even though he had every opportunity to see Puma's army. Having a rough economy is better than just dying, beleive it or not. You know, if this is a one base all-in that you can defend, and still not be able to expand afterwards, then isn't that enough reason to nerf it? The fact that a Terran can force you to 1base till you mine out, isn't that absolutely fucking retarded? Seriously, even if this build was defendable off 1 base, it would still be stupid is as hell, and subject to a nerf because it fucks up the game too much. Stuff was nerfed for far less in the past. That game was retarded, but people cant really act like MC didn't make a mistake. He did insanely well holding off the first push, then the 2nd push he very much underestimated. He coudl've slowed the push insanely much, by not camping at his natural.if he had say stayed on Puma's Xel naga, he could've forced 2-3 sieges before puma got to his natural. Reason why he didn't do this is I believe banshee's, he was afraid to split his army up, but he could've gained like upto 2 warpins from this and ton of time to finish charge. Also the engagement itself was sloppy, the immos had to walk around the stalkers so didnt kill the tanks very fast, stalkers were hurt before the engagement and it just wasnt as insanely well played like he did at first push. That all being said, I as a terran player do find 1/1/1 a bit ridiculous, I just don't have any idea how Blizzard could possibly nerf it. All the units themselves are fine, the combination itself is fine, it's just this exact timing that toss simply cannot hold. Edit: Heck I hadn't even thought of ff on puma's ramp. It could've slowed puma down insanely much, though it would've been 1-2 sacrificial sentries(due to siege tanks), but on 4 gas, every 15 sec MC makes ~120 gas, so yer...
I think MC thought he had the game won, and so didn't try and defend the push like his life depended on it. I mean, if Zerg stops a 4 gate, the follow up 4 gate is so pitifully weak you could still hold even if you droned to twice the amount of workers your opponent has. MC underestimated how much 1 base Terran could produce (Puma was outproducing MC after the attack ie Puma was ahead!)
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
"I felt that I did not have command over the game. I acknowledge that my situational awareness and hand speed is slow, and I will work on perfecting them. By the way, the reason why 1/1/1 is so strong against Protoss, is because our AoE units are all tier 3. If only we had banelings..... those marines would be nothing."
Maybe Blizzard should give Zealots a researchable upgrade to put on a suicide vest?
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On August 22 2011 17:55 Telcontar wrote:"I felt that I did not have command over the game. I acknowledge that my situational awareness and hand speed is slow, and I will work on perfecting them. By the way, the reason why 1/1/1 is so strong against Protoss, is because our AoE units are all tier 3. If only we had banelings..... those marines would be nothing."
thanks
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On August 22 2011 17:47 rareh wrote:
Why not counter attack and supply block terran ? Why not force-field Puma's ramp ? Why no colossus ? So many mistakes from MC.
If puma was investing in his economy instead of trying to do another push, then the nexus would be justifiable.
You don't counter a push with probes and a nexus... same goes for every race.
How do you force-field a terran ramp when he has siege tanks and cloaked banshees? MC made some mistakes, but can you elaborate when MC should get his colossus?
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On August 22 2011 17:55 Telcontar wrote:"I felt that I did not have command over the game. I acknowledge that my situational awareness and hand speed is slow, and I will work on perfecting them. By the way, the reason why 1/1/1 is so strong against Protoss, is because our AoE units are all tier 3. If only we had banelings..... those marines would be nothing."
Just acknowledge 1 1 1is easy to execute but hard to defend. Stop defending yourself terran. Nobody is complaining it is unstoppable. Read the FIRST thread before commenting. Please stop giving stupid advises like it is so easy to hold off, DEAR GOD, why do people think they are so smart nowadays.
User was warned for this post
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On August 22 2011 06:50 MeanMike wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:43 Mylkyjo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:33 MeanMike wrote:
100% win rate in gsl
im sure it's higher than 90% but im being generous Watching GSL August and GSTL I've seen a few 1/1/1 builds defeated by Protoss in the past couple of weeks. Once the Protoss' worked out what was happening, they delayed the Terran advance with clever force fields and feints, to buy time to get enough units out before the push hit. MC even held off a 1/1/1 by Puma this morning, but lost his lead through incorrect decisions. Also, to a couple of posts saying "Protoss can't beat a 1/1/1 unless they outplay their opponent"; does anyone deserve a win if they can't outplay their opponent? the problem is that 1-1-1 takes very little skill to pull off whereas protoss has to pray for a miracle and have a perfect response It's not unbeatable but it's very imbalanced
Im not here to whine but there as been ton of occations where its been the other way around. How much does skill does a 4 gate take for example ?
Just learn to fend it off and theyll need to come up with something new. Thats how it has always worked.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On August 22 2011 17:57 Zaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:55 Telcontar wrote:"I felt that I did not have command over the game. I acknowledge that my situational awareness and hand speed is slow, and I will work on perfecting them. By the way, the reason why 1/1/1 is so strong against Protoss, is because our AoE units are all tier 3. If only we had banelings..... those marines would be nothing." Just acknowledge 1 1 1is easy to execute but hard to defend. Stop defending yourself terran. Nobody is complaining it is unstoppable. Read the FIRST thread before commenting. Please stop giving stupid advises like it is so easy to hold off, DEAR GOD, why do people think they are so smart nowadays.
Erm, are you sure you quoted the right post? I was just translating MC's tweet there.
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On August 22 2011 17:44 Sabu113 wrote:Rough google translations to tide us over until a real translator chooses to help us  (wub you guys <3) Ninety-four not yet earned the game felt fully assess the situation and my hands were slow to recognize and perfect, so that more effort should do that. 111 Incidentally, the reason we have a powerful Protoss Protoss units splash damage poisonous insect, even I could have only a three-tier ... Marines etc. xxx I think he wants banelings? uh Wish he had microed better so more practice will fix it... blames loss on not using splash the only feature that makes toss so strong? Interesting tweets actually lol.
아직 완벽하게 게임을 구사 못하고있는걸 느꼈다 내 상황판단과 손이 느리다고 인정하고 더 노력해서 완벽해지도록해야겠다. 여담이지만 111이 프로토스에게 강력한이유는 프로토스는 스플래쉬데미지유닛이 3티어에만있다 맹독충이라도 있었으면.. 해병따위
My basic Korean skills translate it thus:
I feel like I didn't play as perfectly as I could have. I admit my judgement and hands were slow. I must make more effort to become more perfect in my play. To digress, the reason why the 1-1-1 build is so strong against protoss is because protoss splash damage units are tier 3. If only we had banelings.. marines etc.
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On August 22 2011 17:48 mlevar wrote:Also tried google translate, it seems he's saying he could've done better, the poisonous insect thing has to be a bad translation, can't wait to see what he's actually trying to say.
Google mangles the last sentence pretty badly. I think "insect" actually has "charge" as a synonym, so that particular bit might be a play on words of some form..
I think it might be closer to "111ing protoss is powerful because our splash units are tier 3 while I couldn't even get [f-ing] charge."
But I really have no idea. Paging Milkis....
EDIT: or Telcontar. Thanks.
On August 22 2011 17:55 Telcontar wrote:"I felt that I did not have command over the game. I acknowledge that my situational awareness and hand speed is slow, and I will work on perfecting them. By the way, the reason why 1/1/1 is so strong against Protoss, is because our AoE units are all tier 3. If only we had banelings..... those marines would be nothing." Maybe Blizzard should give Zealots a researchable upgrade to put on a suicide vest?
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On August 22 2011 17:55 Telcontar wrote:"I felt that I did not have command over the game. I acknowledge that my situational awareness and hand speed is slow, and I will work on perfecting them. By the way, the reason why 1/1/1 is so strong against Protoss, is because our AoE units are all tier 3. If only we had banelings..... those marines would be nothing." Maybe Blizzard should give Zealots a researchable upgrade to put on a suicide vest?
Bwhhaha that would be fitting for zealots.
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On August 22 2011 17:57 Robinsa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:50 MeanMike wrote:On August 22 2011 06:43 Mylkyjo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:33 MeanMike wrote:
100% win rate in gsl
im sure it's higher than 90% but im being generous Watching GSL August and GSTL I've seen a few 1/1/1 builds defeated by Protoss in the past couple of weeks. Once the Protoss' worked out what was happening, they delayed the Terran advance with clever force fields and feints, to buy time to get enough units out before the push hit. MC even held off a 1/1/1 by Puma this morning, but lost his lead through incorrect decisions. Also, to a couple of posts saying "Protoss can't beat a 1/1/1 unless they outplay their opponent"; does anyone deserve a win if they can't outplay their opponent? the problem is that 1-1-1 takes very little skill to pull off whereas protoss has to pray for a miracle and have a perfect response It's not unbeatable but it's very imbalanced Im not here to whine but there as been ton of occations where its been the other way around. How much does skill does a 4 gate take for example ? Just learn to fend it off and theyll need to come up with something new. Thats how it has always worked.
4gate never worked against T unless the T did a super greedy build. and learn to fend it? im pretty sure blizz nerfed the shit out of 4gate when people complained about it.
4gate is at LEAST scoutable, and if the all in fails, the protoss player loses....which is how the game should work. but for 1-1-1, thats not the case. Mules are rediculous lol
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If it does turn out that 1/1/1 is too powerful, maybe an increase to the marines build time by 2 seconds will help to slow the timing and reenforcement power without hurting the other match-ups.
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On August 22 2011 18:09 HinagikUx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:57 Robinsa wrote:On August 22 2011 06:50 MeanMike wrote:On August 22 2011 06:43 Mylkyjo wrote:On August 22 2011 06:33 MeanMike wrote:
100% win rate in gsl
im sure it's higher than 90% but im being generous Watching GSL August and GSTL I've seen a few 1/1/1 builds defeated by Protoss in the past couple of weeks. Once the Protoss' worked out what was happening, they delayed the Terran advance with clever force fields and feints, to buy time to get enough units out before the push hit. MC even held off a 1/1/1 by Puma this morning, but lost his lead through incorrect decisions. Also, to a couple of posts saying "Protoss can't beat a 1/1/1 unless they outplay their opponent"; does anyone deserve a win if they can't outplay their opponent? the problem is that 1-1-1 takes very little skill to pull off whereas protoss has to pray for a miracle and have a perfect response It's not unbeatable but it's very imbalanced Im not here to whine but there as been ton of occations where its been the other way around. How much does skill does a 4 gate take for example ? Just learn to fend it off and theyll need to come up with something new. Thats how it has always worked. 4gate never worked against T unless the T did a super greedy build. and learn to fend it? im pretty sure blizz nerfed the shit out of 4gate when people complained about it. 4gate is at LEAST scoutable, and if the all in fails, the protoss player loses....which is how the game should work. but for 1-1-1, thats not the case. Mules are rediculous lol
If a terran knows a 4gate is coming and still lose then he is stupid. I don't see how we can compare those 2 all-ins
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EPT
