EPTWhy 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 45
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Sotamursu
Finland612 Posts
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Timestreamer
Israel157 Posts
What about stargate openings with the intention to just contain the terran player? Using phoenix to harass, or the threat of a void ray to keep the terran in his main long enough? Moreover - do you believe 1/1/1 is a problem in ZvT as well, and if so why? | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17729 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:33 PPTouch wrote: hallucinations eat up PDD energy Woa, Liquipedia confirms it. So I guess Phoenixes would be the best thing to Hallucinate against PPD then? | ||
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Phyrful
United States248 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:50 Die4Ever wrote: Woa, Liquipedia confirms it. So I guess Phoenixes would be the best thing to Hallucinate against PPD then? I don't think PPD's stop phoenix lasers afaik. If he has a PPD, he has a Raven, which means he can detect they're halluc, so the hallucinated stuff won't tank damage either. Just food for thought. | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:50 Die4Ever wrote: Woa, Liquipedia confirms it. So I guess Phoenixes would be the best thing to Hallucinate against PPD then? 2 ways to think about it, phoenix hallu will take out pdd the fastest, but use stalkers, slower pdd kill, but you have a hallucinated unit that T will actually target thus, free meat-shield. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:50 Die4Ever wrote: Woa, Liquipedia confirms it. So I guess Phoenixes would be the best thing to Hallucinate against PPD then? sentries can also kill pdd's as their attack isnt blocked by it | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:41 Sotamursu wrote: What about making banshees armored? That way stalkers would kill them faster and less stalkers would be needed to to kill the banshees during a push. Then it would take 2X as long for phoenixes to kill them, though, voidrays would be neat. | ||
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Dreadwolf
Canada220 Posts
We always have to consider cloak when gas is taken we just cant ignore it and do blind shit. Has day9 said, play based on hope.. (plz dont have cloak plz dont have cloak plz dont have cloak) aint that great. | ||
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Lobber
Canada414 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17729 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:56 Lobber wrote: Then it would take 2X as long for phoenixes to kill them, though, voidrays would be neat. Yea, make them armored and massive so void rays own them, lol jk. I think it might be worth making them armored so that stalkers can beat them, since you'll probably want to go robo anyways in case they get cloak. | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:32 Snowbear wrote: True, no comparable nerf to terran. Our tanks only lost a huge amount of damage (from 60 to 35 against light...), our thors were made useless vs protoss (or do we still see them in progames?), our stim takes 30 seconds more to research. Depot before rax required. Only buffs to terran! In tvp only MMM + ghost + viking works in macro games. Mech gets destroyed. You have to multitask with 300 apm and drop everywhere to stand a chance, or you can 1-1-1 ofcourse :p. The 1-1-1 would be less strong if banshees were nerfed. They just do way too much damage. Yes a queen would win against a banshee, but this doesnt break tvz at all. To all the people saying that marines should be nerfed: you never played against a 3gate voidray bust. Play against it and then come back. To all the people saying that stalkers should be buffed: you never played against a 1base blink protoss. You will rarely see this, but it's VERY strong and VERY hard to hold, unless you maybe 1base. You can't even scout it (unless he doesn't hide his tech). + Show Spoiler + Watch select vs mc on tal'darim People seem to forget how hard tvp is lategame. The protoss deathball is so strong and thanks to the warpin mechanic you can almost never outmacro the protoss. If he wins a battle its over. I know alot of people hate terrans, but they all forget how hard macro-terran is. People keep bringing up that Protoss can outmacro Terran with warpgates but this isn't true at all. Having 10 warpgates is not different from having 10 barracks and you'll be able to macro just a fast. As someone who plays both T and P I don't find Terran macro noticably harder as you can macro while looking elsewhere on the map (army/drops etc.) and with Protoss you have to go back to a pylon to warp in. Anyways, Blizzard is probably having a hard time figuring out how to handle this all-in while not fucking everything else up in the matchups. It will be interesting to see what they come up with. At least I hope so, if they don't fix it then in 2 months there will be no Protoss left in the GSL. | ||
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Biane
Australia645 Posts
On August 22 2011 17:00 Die4Ever wrote: Yea, make them armored and massive so void rays own them, lol jk. I think it might be worth making them armored so that stalkers can beat them, since you'll probably want to go robo anyways in case they get cloak. Not that it matters in a mirror matchup but it will make thors zoning out banshees in TvT mech a little harder | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
this wouldnt hurt PvP, but would it break PvT and PvZ? i really dont believe so. a robo making 2 immortals a minute could be making 1 collossi a minute. the 1 collossi is 200 less minerals 2 less food and better at killing zerglings with a longer range | ||
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
On August 22 2011 15:46 stink123 wrote: After watching these replays And watching this video How can you say that 1-1-1 is imbalanced? It just looks like a strong all-in that requires protoss to react to the terran. Both cases have protoss go one base robo and stop the 1-1-1 attack. The korean GM does it with a good mix of stalker/zealot/collosus timed before the terran can get banshees + PDD energy, and trading his collosus for the terran's army. Grubby adds 2 more gateways and walks over the terran. Also, in both cases, the terran never had a chance to "siege and bunker contain" because the protoss left their base to meet the terran, and crushed them. There is no reason protoss can't fight as terran moves out, and slowly back up, the build has no marauders (or even stim) to force a fight. Not to mention that this is a new timing attack that protoss isn't used to, it will take some time before people figure out the optimal reactions and unit compositions to counter the push, instead of crying to blizzard for help. (Like how people were crying over the Collosus/Voidray PvZ, and then Nestea won a GSL before the fungal patch) Someone posted some vods and replays of holding this' http://www.twitch.tv/followgrubby/b/292839739 - 1:25:05 - this terran is funny I don't know how can you even post that. I can tell my bronze friend to do that to me and it will be the same as this game. He lost like 8 marines and scv for no reason + he didn't even use banshees for harass. Funny. http://www.twitch.tv/followgrubby/b/292854608 - 0:07:01 - epic fail by terran lose reactor + depo + some units. He lost to 1 base toss. That isn't supposed to happen according to the design of the game. http://www.twitch.tv/followgrubby/b/292854608 - 0:17:17 - Terran expo? wtf? why do you even post that? rofl. Replays http://www.playxp.com/sc2/gosureplays/view.php?article_id=3277407&search=2&search_pos=&q= Korea toss on Nerazym crypt 24 min game- seriously why do you post that? Terran goes for hidden cc + cc at his natural rofl we are talking about 1 basing here. So far 2 useless replays, vods. Korea toss on Nerazym crypt 12:37 min game - terran goes for 2 rax stim before that. I'm seriously starting to think that you are retarded. Korea toss on Nerazym crypt 12:21 min game - finally the terran goes for 1-1-1 cross pos on this map ( it is looong way ) ........ And he doesn't bring his scvs. Hits too late. Good job. For now 3 replays and none is relevant. Korea toss on Shattered temple - I thought you were supposed to hit earlier with this not after 11 minute + epic fail siege | ||
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rareh
Portugal298 Posts
Recent examples: xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 . Genius did it against thorzain in gstl. MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.) Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. | ||
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winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote: 1/1/1 has been defeated several times. Recent examples: xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 . Genius did it against thorzain in gstl. MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.) Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. ive never seen a 1-1-1 beaten in a high profile game unless one of the following things happened 1) the protoss used a build that is a blind counter to 1-1-1, but is auto-lose to a 2rax expand, and the protoss must commit to his build before being able to scout if a 2rax expand or 1-1-1 is coming 2) the terran played very sloppy and made mistakes. thus his 1-1-1 wasnt perfect. the real test should be if a perfect 1-1-1 can be beaten. Almost every time i see a toss beat a 1-1-1 its a very sloppy 1-1-1 with excess resources or supply blocks on the terran side pretty much, if the protoss is forced to do a build that is auto-lose to 2rax expand in order to counter 1-1-1, then the 1-1-1 is imbalanced in the sense that is messes with the metagame too much and the protoss has no safe build thus it requires the protoss to get a coinflip guess correct in order to win, where as the terran always has a safe build he can use that is safe against everything or he could 1-1-1 if he wants to coinflip and hope his enemy didnt do a blind build that counters 1-1-1. | ||
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SnetteL
Belgium473 Posts
On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote: MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.) -.- Do you really want to go backwards in the discussion? It's been confirmed already that and why you need an expansion as a protoss sooner rather than later. If he doesn't expand he will get outproduced by the terran and contained to his main where he will starve to death whereas terran can fly his orbital to his natural. | ||
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HEhatesusall
Greece76 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:10 StarBrift wrote: I have been saying that this push is broken since beta when people were doing it all the time. Then they just stopped doing it for some reason. Now that peolpe can execute the pushes a lot better it's gone from hard to defend to nearly impossible. Thank god there is one more person in these forums that feels as I do. I mean, in ladder seasons 1 & 2 I was still loosing to 1/1/1 allins and I try to 1 gate expo on most maps! 1 gate expo is really not a "counter", you just get a better chance at holding this allin. | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote: Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. One base war of nutricion vs Terran? Sure as hell you'd lose that, Terran floats his OC over to the natural, you create a Nexus at 400$, you are 60 secs and 400 moneyzz behind. gg MC did the best thing he could possibly do. | ||
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