EPTdunno dont thinkt he correct resposne to any problem is to nerf or buff stuff
should just adjust playstyle
Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 44
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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PPTouch
99 Posts
dunno dont thinkt he correct resposne to any problem is to nerf or buff stuff should just adjust playstyle | ||
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ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
Nerf Marine range by one, and make an upgrade in the Engineering Bay (50/50/60) to increase range back to 5. This would also help Zerg defend against the low risk, high reward strategy that is the 2 rax. (Reason the upgrade has to be in the Ebay is the relativele cheapness and low build time of it, if you would make a tech labbed rax, you'd end up with 2 less marines and maybe a slightly delayed push (4/5/6 seconds), with won't fix the problem. | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:00 ToastieNL wrote: Point is: Terran is said to be the most complete race. With the exception of a few slight changes to thor energy, bunker build time and recently Stim (which was equalized by Warpgate) nerf), we can assume Blizzard won't be messing much with the numbers on the Terran side of things. It'd "break" a lot of other things. The problem is: If the balance problem has to be fixed on Protoss' side, a match- up as fragile as PvZ atm is, will suffer greatly. Protoss and Zerg have been switching their winrates enormously lately by the discovery of different styles and builds. Thus: Fixing the 1/1/1 All- in will be very tough to do via balance. I think the option is to create different maps. I'm thinking something with bigger rush distance from main to main ramp, but natural to natural could be a bit smaller already. The solution comes with either maps, very tiny build time nerfs or HotS. Answer seems obvious to me.. Fix pvt 1-1-1, and then a very slight buff zerg around whatever that fix did that made P stronger. Im sure the T MU wont suffer and mirror obviously is already a CF, so it doesn't matter either way. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On August 22 2011 12:22 Milkis wrote: Dunno, I asked Alicia and he's pretty convinced there's nothing Protoss can do against Terran if Terran doesn't make a mechanical mistake and know the optimal ways of dealing with Protoss reactions. Oh come on, Milkis, random ladder players on TL obviously know far more than Alicia who only practices with scrubs like Ganzi, MMA, Taeja, Boxer etc. I can't believe you would take this guys opinion over the experts in this thread who are telling us that defending 1-1-1 is EZ mode- just build some static defense bro! | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:06 ToastieNL wrote: Or, another option: Nerf Marine range by one, and make an upgrade in the Engineering Bay (50/50/60) to increase range back to 5. This would also help Zerg defend against the low risk, high reward strategy that is the 2 rax. (Reason the upgrade has to be in the Ebay is the relativele cheapness and low build time of it, if you would make a tech labbed rax, you'd end up with 2 less marines and maybe a slightly delayed push (4/5/6 seconds), with won't fix the problem. actually I agree with this. not only is it what they did to balance the races in sc1 (academy had range buff for marines), it would force them to get closer until that research is done, thus allowing the slower units to hit them more before they get in range and start their LOLdps. DPS or range, one need to be nerfed for the marine. no other unit has the power/cost ratio of a marine, there should be multiple upgrades to achieve that imo. It would also change the game style. Imagine if the choice right now at 4 minuites into game is range or more dps. get one or the other. get one and you're defensively good, but offensively poor. get the other and you're offensively good but defensively poor (until you have the time/money to afford both). If marines graduated like this over the course of the game, their high capability would be EARNED. Im willing to let the upgrades be hella cheap, say 50-25, and just takes 60-80 seconds to get them. don't mess with stim because it needs to be where it is. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:08 Truedot wrote: Answer seems obvious to me.. Fix pvt 1-1-1, and then a very slight buff zerg around whatever that fix did that made P stronger. Im sure the T MU wont suffer and mirror obviously is already a CF, so it doesn't matter either way. I actually agree. They could add 1 more armor to stalkers or something and in return add 1 more attack to zerglings which are utter trash unless you are 2 upgrades up on your opponent. I watch games when 4 zealots with similar upgrades kill 12 zerglings and I think that something is very wrong. Colossus allready rapes lings. Templars obviously rape lings. Tanks and marines rape lings. Blueflame helions rape lings. Even blink stalkers can rape lings in most situations. Giving them one more point of attack damage would make people respect zerglings more (like it was in brood war) while still being able to kill them equally fast. The only problem might be that zvz will turn into a ling/baneling war again. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:06 ToastieNL wrote: Or, another option: Nerf Marine range by one, and make an upgrade in the Engineering Bay (50/50/60) to increase range back to 5. This would also help Zerg defend against the low risk, high reward strategy that is the 2 rax. (Reason the upgrade has to be in the Ebay is the relativele cheapness and low build time of it, if you would make a tech labbed rax, you'd end up with 2 less marines and maybe a slightly delayed push (4/5/6 seconds), with won't fix the problem. Even with the 2 rax you see zergs destroying terrans. 2rax is not a gamewinner, unless the zerg fucks up. It puts the needed pressure on zerg. | ||
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PPTouch
99 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:15 StarBrift wrote: I actually agree. They could add 1 more armor to stalkers or something and in return add 1 more attack to zerglings which are utter trash unless you are 2 upgrades up on your opponent. I watch games when 4 zealots with similar upgrades kill 12 zerglings and I think that something is very wrong. Colossus allready rapes lings. Templars obviously rape lings. Tanks and marines rape lings. Blueflame helions rape lings. Even blink stalkers can rape lings in most situations. Giving them one more point of attack damage would make people respect zerglings more (like it was in brood war) while still being able to kill them equally fast. The only problem might be that zvz will turn into a ling/baneling war again. what disturbed me about this post is that the zealot is supposed to soft counter to ling and you want the ling to kill it? 4 zealots cost 400 minerals. 12 lings cost 300 minerals. whats going on here | ||
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Truedot
444 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:15 StarBrift wrote: I actually agree. They could add 1 more armor to stalkers or something and in return add 1 more attack to zerglings which are utter trash unless you are 2 upgrades up on your opponent. I watch games when 4 zealots with similar upgrades kill 12 zerglings and I think that something is very wrong. Colossus allready rapes lings. Templars obviously rape lings. Tanks and marines rape lings. Blueflame helions rape lings. Even blink stalkers can rape lings in most situations. Giving them one more point of attack damage would make people respect zerglings more (like it was in brood war) while still being able to kill them equally fast. The only problem might be that zvz will turn into a ling/baneling war again. the problem with the ling/bling wars is that its very hard to quickly tech and pump out roaches. 7 roach is cutting corners, and then what? you're stuck in your base trying to compensate for a trashed eco when he spent less on units and can afford to expand freely with map control. the zvz is fundamentally flawed anyway. Its ling/bling in NA all the way too. | ||
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Coppii
Norway57 Posts
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:22 Coppii wrote: Id love it if someone could give an exact build(order) to counter the 1-1-1 all-in. Im having a real hard time dealing with it, even when i just asume its comming, and it infact is :/ Check what MC did vs Puma on the first game, I think this is the closest thing you'll find as a build to "counter" 1-1-1. | ||
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Mainland
Canada551 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:24 DertoQq wrote: Check what MC did vs Puma on the first game, I think this is the closest thing you'll find as a build to "counter" 1-1-1. I agree. Copying a post I made on reddit: I think MC had that game almost won but he got a little over confident and rushed into the second engagement. double checking the replay: http://www.esl-world.net/masters/season6/cologne/sc2/playoffs/match/23696801/ He had enough zealots, but he had them hotkeyed with the immortals and sentries, they were stuck behind the immortals. He fought in a choke. He also had forcefields available to cut the marines. I think he expected to be way way ahead at that point so he just turned on guardian shield and attacked into the army. With 20/20 hindsight, he didn't need to attack when he did, he had so much more income that he could have just waited for a few more rounds of units. Even losing the expansion again wouldn't have hurt him that much. What MC tried in game 1 can work, and it's very difficult to make it work, but I also think it's a bit early to talk too much about balance. I think one of the issues that marines are 1 food, and tanks are 3 food when zealots are 2 and immortals 4. I'm not saying that these values need to be changed, but looking just at this particular build and timing, P needs to put a lot more money into pylons for less food-effective units. | ||
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Jimmy Raynor
902 Posts
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Carmine
United States263 Posts
-open robo: immortals, zealots, stalkers and sentries. Micro well, maybe zealot bombs on tanks with warp prism, or use warp prism to warp in zealots in terran base. open stargate: pheonix harrass, zealots, stalkers and sentries. Maybe voids. In Puma vs MC he didnt use pheonix to lift tanks :S Also I think Archons might help a lot, if even for the second terran push, because they are good against tanks, marines, banshees, and invulnerable to PDD. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 22 2011 15:39 Snaphoo wrote: As I recall, Zerg got a pretty massive infestor buff and Terrans got Khaydarin Amulet removed from the game. Terrans did not "learn to deal" with warp-in storms, they screeched until Blizzard removed them. Zerg players did not "solve" the deathball (though maybe they started to with bling drops) so much as they started using Infestors with massive fungal buff. Since release there has been no comparable buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran. We're due. True, no comparable nerf to terran. Our tanks only lost a huge amount of damage (from 60 to 35 against light...), our thors were made useless vs protoss (or do we still see them in progames?), our stim takes 30 seconds more to research. Depot before rax required. Only buffs to terran! In tvp only MMM + ghost + viking works in macro games. Mech gets destroyed. You have to multitask with 300 apm and drop everywhere to stand a chance, or you can 1-1-1 ofcourse :p. The 1-1-1 would be less strong if banshees were nerfed. They just do way too much damage. Yes a queen would win against a banshee, but this doesnt break tvz at all. To all the people saying that marines should be nerfed: you never played against a 3gate voidray bust. Play against it and then come back. To all the people saying that stalkers should be buffed: you never played against a 1base blink protoss. You will rarely see this, but it's VERY strong and VERY hard to hold, unless you maybe 1base. You can't even scout it (unless he doesn't hide his tech). + Show Spoiler + Watch select vs mc on tal'darim People seem to forget how hard tvp is lategame. The protoss deathball is so strong and thanks to the warpin mechanic you can almost never outmacro the protoss. If he wins a battle its over. I know alot of people hate terrans, but they all forget how hard macro-terran is. | ||
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PPTouch
99 Posts
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:28 Jimmy Raynor wrote: Socke(with colossus) and Killer (I think it was him with blink stalkers) did a pretty good job stopping the 1/1/1 of Select. Killer did a 15nexus if I remember correctly, which is way to risky to consider it as a way to beat 1-1-1 . | ||
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
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wolfe
United States761 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. Glad to hear more from pros, but I guess as Tree-Hugger mentions what are your views on the current state of scouting compared to BW? Is scouting truly too lacking in SC2 to sustain a information based opener or is it simply because the game hasn't been figured out enough? | ||
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