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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 14:52 HolyArrow wrote:
Let's assume the 1-1-1 all-in is actually imbalanced.
Telling Protoss players to wait until HotS (probably around 7 months, according to wikipedia) for an actual fix is completely ridiculous. I don't even say this as a player, or on the behalf of any random ladder players - I say this more as a devoted fan of many Protoss pros who practice just as much as the players of any other race, yet, if the 1-1-1 is truly imbalanced, will have to wait until HotS for the playing ground to be evened up. People need to realize that success is how pros make a living. It brings them money, prestige, and motivation. You can't just casually say "Welp, looks like a core design problem, guess you'll have to wait until HotS" to people that fucking make their living off of this game. That's is completely and utterly bullshit, and wholly unfair. I personally think that if band-aid solutions need to be released, then fine, let that be the case. You can't ask people whose lives revolve around the game to sit tight and wait even if a design revamp including a Protoss harass unit and other factors that Dustin Browder mentioned is the best solution, because the best solution is basically jeopardizing the efforts of hundreds, maybe even thousands of Protoss pros/aspiring pros who don't deserve that crap.
Well, if there is a band-aid solution out there to fix an imbalance, then it should be used. You have to use the right tools though. If changing the game itself is problematic, because of unforeseen bi-effects it may have or the problem is just very complicated, then changing the map-pool is the second best band-aid solution. It is also the easiest and safest solution of all, and something which can be done without any involvement from Blizzard.
So, why use the "wait for HotS "-argument you ask? Well, if the band-aid is going to shake up the balance a lot, then better wait for the SC2 expansion. The balance is going to be a mess when HotS is released, so it is the best time to make radical changes. Each patch change have the potential to skew a lot of timings, and it is hard for pro gamers if they constantly need to revise their builds and timing. Changing maps seem to be the safest solution as opposed to patching the game, especially considering the complex issue of 1/1/1 TvP.
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On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing.
Agree
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I don't play protoss, but it kinda feels like this a terran deathball to toss similar to the colosus deathball we use to see vs zerg. 111 seems really powerful if but maybe theres some abstract areas that need to be explored here as well like drops or counter attacks if the terran trys to move out. Warp prisms and hidden proxy pylons could be useful to slow the push long enough and keep terran in his base? I'm not saying it would work but an idea that could be looked at.
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On August 22 2011 15:36 NumbNuts wrote:
I don't play protoss, but it kinda feels like this a terran deathball to toss similar to the colosus deathball we use to see vs zerg. 111 seems really powerful if but maybe theres some abstract areas that need to be explored here as well like drops or counter attacks if the terran trys to move out. Warp prisms and hidden proxy pylons could be useful to slow the push long enough and keep terran in his base? I'm not saying it would work but an idea that could be looked at.
If you drop the terran ball will just own you harder and you'll lose the base race.
Actually, the reinforcements would stop the drop before it did any real damage most likely, and even if you had 8 zealots go unchecked, you'd still lose badly.
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On August 22 2011 15:16 Phanekim wrote:
i actually believe the OP. my gut instinct says its probably imba.
remember he is sorta quoting al ot of korean sources. the opposite side we get tyler's opinion and thats not a clear statement that its not imbalanced.
Ultimately, I think commentary from folks like IMMVP, SlayerS_Alicia and Gisado carry an enormous amount of weight, way more than the people saying that "PROTOSS SHOULD JUST FIGURE IT OUT, STOP QQ'ING."
As I recall, Zerg got a pretty massive infestor buff and Terrans got Khaydarin Amulet removed from the game. Terrans did not "learn to deal" with warp-in storms, they screeched until Blizzard removed them. Zerg players did not "solve" the deathball (though maybe they started to with bling drops) so much as they started using Infestors with massive fungal buff. Since release there has been no comparable buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran. We're due.
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What if the answer is to go halluc first (before warpgate)?
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It is just like when 4gate was popular and considered OP, eventually people will know how to counter the 1-1-1 build, just give it some time.
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On August 22 2011 15:44 Abdool wrote:
It is just like when 4gate was popular and considered OP, eventually people will know how to counter the 1-1-1 build, just give it some time.
You are aware that Blizzard nerfed Warpgate timing by 20 seconds to address 4 Gates?
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On August 22 2011 15:39 Choboo wrote:
What if the answer is to go halluc first (before warpgate)?
Death to 2rax probably. Though terran wouldnt know what your researching I guess.
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After watching these replays
And watching this video
On August 22 2011 11:35 TitleRug wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:58 Huntz wrote:4gate robo stargate and we thought 4 gate was all-in lol but interesting. ofc we'd have to see the game, but if more than a handful of cases of 1 basing are working, there might be something to it. the games I'm talking about: Notice in all the games he scouts the all in before making the 2gates and stargate. Grubby defending and winning against with 2gate robo + 2gate into stargate: one base 1-1-1 all in 1:25:11 of http://www.twitch.tv/followgrubby/b/292839739 (+ 4gate but the same idea) 0:07:01 of http://www.twitch.tv/followgrubby/b/292854608![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZafQg.png) Grubby defending a two base all in after expecting a one base all in(1-1-1) 0:17:17 of http://www.twitch.tv/followgrubby/b/292854608edit: what I meant by defending is winning the game in the end.
How can you say that 1-1-1 is imbalanced? It just looks like a strong all-in that requires protoss to react to the terran. Both cases have protoss go one base robo and stop the 1-1-1 attack. The korean GM does it with a good mix of stalker/zealot/collosus timed before the terran can get banshees + PDD energy, and trading his collosus for the terran's army. Grubby adds 2 more gateways and walks over the terran.
Also, in both cases, the terran never had a chance to "siege and bunker contain" because the protoss left their base to meet the terran, and crushed them. There is no reason protoss can't fight as terran moves out, and slowly back up, the build has no marauders (or even stim) to force a fight.
Not to mention that this is a new timing attack that protoss isn't used to, it will take some time before people figure out the optimal reactions and unit compositions to counter the push, instead of crying to blizzard for help. (Like how people were crying over the Collosus/Voidray PvZ, and then Nestea won a GSL before the fungal patch)
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On August 22 2011 15:45 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 15:39 Choboo wrote:
What if the answer is to go halluc first (before warpgate)? Death to 2rax probably. Though terran wouldnt know what your researching I guess.
No you can go 2gate without warp gate and virually have the same units. Plus 1 sentry, 1 stalker and 1 zealot is usually enough to hold it off anyway.
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I think a small immortal buff could fix a lot of problems for protoss, both vs zerg and the 1-1-1. Right now its just not a very good unit, its primarily used to hold aggression in the midgame. After that it becomes largely obsolete, as its immobile, expensive and has poor range. I think the buff should be either applied to range (could be unbalancing for some immortal bust all-ins with good FF) or build time + cost(less chance of being unbalanced, but also a weaker buff)
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On August 22 2011 15:39 Choboo wrote:
What if the answer is to go halluc first (before warpgate)?
...interesting.
You'd have to go Sentry-before-Stalker to have sufficient energy, and it would still take ~110 seconds after completing your Core before you could afford to cast a Hallucination (~84 seconds for the sentry's mana to charge). It would be a very fast scout, though still slower than is possible to arrange if you reveal a fast Robo or fast Stargate.
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IMO (admittedly low-level compared to the people quoted here), the issue with this build is the possibility of cloak. As discussed, P has 3 options for scouting: 1) Observer, 2) Hallucination, 3) Stargate. As of now, you are absolutely required to get an observer in case of cloaked banshees. Since you have a robo, you then have to make at least some stalkers to deal with the banshee harass. Every stalker you make reduces your chances of holding the all-in because they get owned so hard for their cost by all of the terran units involved. Moveover, you can never even kill harassing banshees. They just return to the terran base, repair, and help out with the all-in.
If cloak were more difficult to obtain, P could throw down a stargate and begin pumping out phoenix. They build so fast now that you could likely have 4 or so out by the time the push arrived. You could actually kill any banshees that were sent to harass. Moreover, you can harass the banshees/phoenix along the way, slowing the push down. Once the tanks siege, you lift them, guardian shield and go with the huge zealot army you've been making since you aren't forced into stalkers. Even if a few banshees survive, even one phoenix will be able to clean up.
I think the 3 options for cloak would be making it require a building (fusion core, and I would be fine with lowering the research time to compensate somewhat since this would be scoutable, make it more expensive, or increase the build time. I think requiring a fusion core for cloak makes some sense, particularly since the most comparable unit in the game also requires a T3 tech structure. Removing cloak wouldn't break either of the other match-ups either, which is certainly a requisite from any proposed solution.
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Damn this thread has blown up!
It's hard to tell if this is imbalanced, however I will say this: It helps tremendously to steal one gas from terran. This forces around 3 more marines for the timing and takes away 1 siege tank or 1 banshee (or raven if the terran decides to skip it). While the push is still extremely strong, gas steal does weaken it by a small margin. And atm, protoss will take anything it can get against this push.
Try it out. Some times the Terran decides 'fck it i wont have the gas' and goes straight into MMM after the gas steal.
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Where is the show "imbalanced" when you need one.
No offense to TL discussions, they are definetely the best out of all forums/communities out there. But I would love to listen to some pros discussing this, maybe taking a look at some replays and showing us the imbalancies .
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On August 22 2011 15:28 kochujang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 14:52 HolyArrow wrote:
Let's assume the 1-1-1 all-in is actually imbalanced.
Telling Protoss players to wait until HotS (probably around 7 months, according to wikipedia) for an actual fix is completely ridiculous. I don't even say this as a player, or on the behalf of any random ladder players - I say this more as a devoted fan of many Protoss pros who practice just as much as the players of any other race, yet, if the 1-1-1 is truly imbalanced, will have to wait until HotS for the playing ground to be evened up. People need to realize that success is how pros make a living. It brings them money, prestige, and motivation. You can't just casually say "Welp, looks like a core design problem, guess you'll have to wait until HotS" to people that fucking make their living off of this game. That's is completely and utterly bullshit, and wholly unfair. I personally think that if band-aid solutions need to be released, then fine, let that be the case. You can't ask people whose lives revolve around the game to sit tight and wait even if a design revamp including a Protoss harass unit and other factors that Dustin Browder mentioned is the best solution, because the best solution is basically jeopardizing the efforts of hundreds, maybe even thousands of Protoss pros/aspiring pros who don't deserve that crap. Well, if there is a band-aid solution out there to fix an imbalance, then it should be used. You have to use the right tools though. If changing the game itself is problematic, because of unforeseen bi-effects it may have or the problem is just very complicated, then changing the map-pool is the second best band-aid solution. It is also the easiest and safest solution of all, and something which can be done without any involvement from Blizzard. So, why use the "wait for HotS "-argument you ask? Well, if the band-aid is going to shake up the balance a lot, then better wait for the SC2 expansion. The balance is going to be a mess when HotS is released, so it is the best time to make radical changes. Each patch change have the potential to skew a lot of timings, and it is hard for pro gamers if they constantly need to revise their builds and timing. Changing maps seem to be the safest solution as opposed to patching the game, especially considering the complex issue of 1/1/1 TvP.
A bunch of things wrong with this.
its actually simpler to balance it NOW, while there's less confounding variables on the field. IF HOTS brings in anything new, those new things can be balanced around what the game already is, that is, if you balance it well before HOTS comes out.
Im not buying HOTS. Not for the single player, and if its going to have new units, not for them either. am I going to be blocked from playing ladder? Im not going to shell out for a purely PR money grab.
Will the game then be unbalanced for me, if I get to keep playing ladder with WOL? Will I sit here experiencing the aftershocks of balance changes to units I don't even use that will become staple units and thus will create a hole in my army from its lack?
Balancing it at all stages requires that you start with the first, balance addons aaround that first until thats good, and then keep doing that. Waiting until HOTS to do everything at once is a shitty idea from any programmer's standpoint. Its simply a PR move for you to buy it.
On August 22 2011 15:51 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 15:39 Choboo wrote:
What if the answer is to go halluc first (before warpgate)? ...interesting. You'd have to go Sentry-before-Stalker to have sufficient energy, and it would still take ~110 seconds after completing your Core before you could afford to cast a Hallucination (~84 seconds for the sentry's mana to charge). It would be a very fast scout, though still slower than is possible to arrange if you reveal a fast Robo or fast Stargate.
maybe his idea is what if you spawn hallucinated targets when they come at your door? you can build a smaller army that can handle part of the threat and hallucinate a bunch of zealots or something so that you dont lose your army as fast. Come to think of it, why was hallucinate used so much in BW but not here? Does it have to do with the far shorter lifespan in HPs? probably. Does it have to do with one spell being a necessary staple bandaid that proves theres a design flaw, i.e. force field? Yes. a million times yes.
Hallucinate afaik has never been used against me, because force field is just such a stronger option. If forcefield were changed to spawn 3 units with the current low hp instead of 2, I think that could change the PvT 1-1-1 problem quite a bit. That was the point of HAL in Sc1 anyway, castable buffer tanking in order to position yourself and save your expensive units.
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Here's an idea... make HTs come with storm already researched. Since the main problem with the 1/1/1 seems to be the massive amount of marines, and that toss needs AOE to compete with tank splash, this seems to be a good solution. In PvT atleast this shouldn't be a massive imbalance, since terrans are able to get a ghost academy immediately after barracks. Also it may help solve the problem of protoss not having viable harassment options, since they will be able to harass faster and cheaper than previously.
Even in PvZ I can't see this becoming too much of a major issue, since roaches are already quite beefy, and are able to outheal storms when burrowed.
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Point is:
Terran is said to be the most complete race. With the exception of a few slight changes to thor energy, bunker build time and recently Stim (which was equalized by Warpgate) nerf), we can assume Blizzard won't be messing much with the numbers on the Terran side of things. It'd "break" a lot of other things.
The problem is:
If the balance problem has to be fixed on Protoss' side, a match- up as fragile as PvZ atm is, will suffer greatly. Protoss and Zerg have been switching their winrates enormously lately by the discovery of different styles and builds.
Thus:
Fixing the 1/1/1 All- in will be very tough to do via balance. I think the option is to create different maps. I'm thinking something with bigger rush distance from main to main ramp, but natural to natural could be a bit smaller already. The solution comes with either maps, very tiny build time nerfs or HotS.
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On August 22 2011 15:39 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 15:16 Phanekim wrote:
i actually believe the OP. my gut instinct says its probably imba.
remember he is sorta quoting al ot of korean sources. the opposite side we get tyler's opinion and thats not a clear statement that its not imbalanced. Ultimately, I think commentary from folks like IMMVP, SlayerS_Alicia and Gisado carry an enormous amount of weight, way more than the people saying that "PROTOSS SHOULD JUST FIGURE IT OUT, STOP QQ'ING." As I recall, Zerg got a pretty massive infestor buff and Terrans got Khaydarin Amulet removed from the game. Terrans did not "learn to deal" with warp-in storms, they screeched until Blizzard removed them. Zerg players did not "solve" the deathball (though maybe they started to with bling drops) so much as they started using Infestors with massive fungal buff. Since release there has been no comparable buff to Protoss or nerf to Terran. We're due.
Completely agree.
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EPT
