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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 14:15 edwahn wrote:
does anyone else feel that the crux of protoss' weakness feels like the immortal?
the robo bay is necessary for an observer, but the immortal is basically useless except to counter very specific army compositions. 1/1/1 is NOT one of those compositions.
given that you basically NEED a robo bay to survive 1/1/1 (cloaked banshee and scouting), it's a huge sink, espeically in gas, just to be able to scout your opponent early enough. notice that all other races' scouting methods are mineral-intensive.
then once you do have your robo, it's a dead-weight production unit. producing immortals out of it is a joke, considering the immortal will never reach the tanks if the terran army is positioned correctly, and the followup waves by the terran are comprised of marines, not mech.
sure, they're great against bunkers also, but trading gas-heavy expensive units like immortals for bunkers doesn't sound ideal to me.
if the immortal was a bit more versatile, it would help not only in defense of 1/1/1 but give protoss more offensive options early game. at the moment, putting down 1 gate robo is basically putting your hand up and saying "i will not attack you for ages"
tl;dr
* buff immortals to give protoss more early game options
ideas - longer range/lower dps (everyone's seen the dancing immortal)
- less drastic difference in damage vs light/armored, plus favour faster attack speed over higher damage per shot (improve dps against marines/lings)
- faster move speed for more offensive options (1 gate robo can now lead to pressure)
- "evasion" ability, rather than hardened shield (improve efficacy vs marine/lings who make immortals look like I'mMortals - sorry for the terrible joke -.-")
of course not all of the above, but they're just some of my ideas on how to make a useless unit become a more often used part of the protoss army.
Cheaper and/or shorter build time could make them more viable. I wonder how PvP would then look like.
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On August 22 2011 14:18 kochujang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 14:15 edwahn wrote:
does anyone else feel that the crux of protoss' weakness feels like the immortal?
the robo bay is necessary for an observer, but the immortal is basically useless except to counter very specific army compositions. 1/1/1 is NOT one of those compositions.
given that you basically NEED a robo bay to survive 1/1/1 (cloaked banshee and scouting), it's a huge sink, espeically in gas, just to be able to scout your opponent early enough. notice that all other races' scouting methods are mineral-intensive.
then once you do have your robo, it's a dead-weight production unit. producing immortals out of it is a joke, considering the immortal will never reach the tanks if the terran army is positioned correctly, and the followup waves by the terran are comprised of marines, not mech.
sure, they're great against bunkers also, but trading gas-heavy expensive units like immortals for bunkers doesn't sound ideal to me.
if the immortal was a bit more versatile, it would help not only in defense of 1/1/1 but give protoss more offensive options early game. at the moment, putting down 1 gate robo is basically putting your hand up and saying "i will not attack you for ages"
tl;dr
* buff immortals to give protoss more early game options
ideas - longer range/lower dps (everyone's seen the dancing immortal)
- less drastic difference in damage vs light/armored, plus favour faster attack speed over higher damage per shot (improve dps against marines/lings)
- faster move speed for more offensive options (1 gate robo can now lead to pressure)
- "evasion" ability, rather than hardened shield (improve efficacy vs marine/lings who make immortals look like I'mMortals - sorry for the terrible joke -.-")
of course not all of the above, but they're just some of my ideas on how to make a useless unit become a more often used part of the protoss army. Cheaper and/or shorter build time could make them more viable. I wonder how PvP would then look like.
Yeah Immortals are kind of an oddball unit. They cost 2 stalkers worth of money.
Someone said making immortals a massive unit would totally fix PvP. They could go through forcefields!
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On August 22 2011 14:15 kochujang wrote:
The only effective short term solution I see, is to remove the 1/1/1 TvP friendly maps from the tournament map pools. The game balance is so fragile now, so any patch changes can break more than they fix.
The long term solution? Wait for HotS :p
i agree with this.
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On August 22 2011 13:32 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:27 Finchy711 wrote:On August 22 2011 12:48 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 12:45 Finchy711 wrote:
I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned a quick scout and gas steal to throw off the 1/1/1 timing. The 1/1/1 is a tech build meaning that it is limited by gas with a marine mineral dump so anything you can do to delay said tech will put you in a better position to defend against it.
Also another thing to mention is that before stim or CS comes out stalkers pretty much have complete map control which allows great poke/harass. The reason this is important is because, from what I understand, the best way to hold off this push is to delay it as much as possible (hence gas steal in the first place) with something like a 1gate +robo FE (Cella). Correct me if I'm wrong but no variation of 1/1/1 includes marauders (with or w/o CS) or stim? And if they do come with CS or stim that means less tanks/banshees/raven i.e. support for the marines.
If you delay the T enough then robo tech gives you all you need to defend against the 1/1/1 variations. i.e. obs for cloak, immortals for tanks, colo for marines. Also 1gate robo allows you to scout which variation it will be quickly w/ obs.
Just some thoughts I had while reading this thread, criticism welcome. The 1-1-1 is a very thick build. Stealing the gas not only doesn't stop it, it only slightly changes the outcome. Not sure what you read there but the gas steal isn't meant to stop 1/1/1 it's meant to delay it. I'm pretty sure if T doesn't get the second gas quickly (~16food) then this push won't come at 9mins and if it does it won't be nearly as strong. I'm not sure if you've ever watched 1-2 marines try to kill an assimilator but it doesn't happen instantly. (Usually 1 b/c of reactor going down after first marine, which is obviously used to deny further scouting) Also it would be good to note here that if the marine/s are targeting the assim then that leaves your probe alive to figure out what T is doing. So if by "only slightly changing the outcome" you mean delaying it by the lost gas mining time to take advantage of your much faster expo then yes you're 100% correct. You also failed to acknowledge that a change in BO is still something that you have to account for which in itself throws off the timing. Oh I wouldn't know the specifics. From what has been said on TL from other terrans is that by the time they need that second gas anyway it would be pretty close to dying to the marines anyway. So your not stopping terran from getting as much gas as you might think you are.
BTW the amount of time for 1 marine to kill an assimilator is 450(shields) / 7dps + 450(hp) / (7-1)dps due to armor = ~139seconds.
Which is quite a long time to make the T have half of his expected gas income. Again it has to be said one of the reasons this build is so strong is the timing window it takes advantage of, if you can shift that timing it only helps you.
Not to mention if he commits marines to killing the assimilator it, in the very least, allows your probe to stay alive that much longer to confirm their build.
I'm just not seeing why you wouldn't gas steal vs T when you expect 1/1/1 to come due to map / spawn position / 1st gas timing / etc.
sources:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=115345
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Assimilator
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TLADT24920 Posts
wow, so much whining over 1-1-1. I can't say if 1-1-1 is OP because I don't feel qualified enough like the majority of posters in this thread(barring the several pro posters) but what I can say is that more time is needed before it can be determined whether it is really OP. I guess the only thing I can say is it's a good thing not many here play BW because I can only imagine what the reaction would be if some here were to play Terran and went up against slings+lurkers+ultras+defilers XD
Forgot to mention that if he is going marine heavy, it means that there is no cs, so, some stalker harass and gas steal might go a long way in delaying the push and having the superior force when the engagement takes place 
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On August 22 2011 14:15 kochujang wrote:
The only effective short term solution I see, is to remove the 1/1/1 TvP friendly maps from the tournament map pools. The game balance is so fragile now, so any patch changes can break more than they fix.
The long term solution? Wait for HotS :p
I switched to terran atleast until they patch protoss or HotS gives us new units. as playing terran from toss i can 1/1/1 diamond P's and i definitely win more than i lose and i really am not that good at terran yet. I liked the matchup before when terrans could FE. Blizzard should really try to implement some better maps for P and T FE's because the game is much more balanced when toss and terran are both at two bases (maybe toss adding a third). they need to be delicate but a little p love in the next patch would be appreciated. The new maps didnt really do anything to solve balance issues as they had hoped. They need to start experimenting on the ptr. It never hurts to just send some tweaks out on the ptr.
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On August 22 2011 13:41 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:38 unit wrote:
im of the opinion that the nerfbat is not needed here...TvZ is perfectly fine as is, in addition to that PvZ recently has also been bad for protoss in korea, meaning that buffs might be more appropriate here An interesting thought, although what buff is a good question. That matchup is shifting every month with blizzard not doing anything. I think a buff is a bit of an oddball move to do.
I think there's one or two things that can be tweaked without having too much effect on the other matchups (especially v Z), such as charge - if cost/research time was changed to same as blink, I don't think it'll have much impact imo? While it'd definitely help quite a bit against terran.
although personally I strongly feel stalkers just need more damage against air~
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I definitely agree, that 1/1/1 r OP. I think all the Korean opinions r totally correct.
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Let's assume the 1-1-1 all-in is actually imbalanced.
Telling Protoss players to wait until HotS (probably around 7 months, according to wikipedia) for an actual fix is completely ridiculous. I don't even say this as a player, or on the behalf of any random ladder players - I say this more as a devoted fan of many Protoss pros who practice just as much as the players of any other race, yet, if the 1-1-1 is truly imbalanced, will have to wait until HotS for the playing ground to be evened up. People need to realize that success is how pros make a living. It brings them money, prestige, and motivation. You can't just casually say "Welp, looks like a core design problem, guess you'll have to wait until HotS" to people that fucking make their living off of this game. That's is completely and utterly bullshit, and wholly unfair. I personally think that if band-aid solutions need to be released, then fine, let that be the case. You can't ask people whose lives revolve around the game to sit tight and wait even if a design revamp including a Protoss harass unit and other factors that Dustin Browder mentioned is the best solution, because the best solution is basically jeopardizing the efforts of hundreds, maybe even thousands of Protoss pros/aspiring pros who don't deserve that crap.
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I'm just surprised that people are so against possibly nerfing T slightly. The only reason I would be pissed is if they nerfed T without even testing and then T was getting roflstomped all of a sudden. But extensive testing could lead to a more interesting matchup without greatly affecting T's overall potential.
I think any of the following nerfs could be gamechanging for this matchup, while still being reasonable.
- increase build time on Tech Lab (5-10 seconds?)
- increase cost of Raven/Banshee to require more gas
- reduce energy on PDD / give PDD ability a minor cooldown (.5-1 second)
- nerf marines jk
I'm no pro - just a lowly plat here - just speaking out so hopefully some more Brotoss' will be seen in GSL for my enjoyment
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On August 22 2011 14:12 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 14:07 Benzzro wrote:
Sigh...Why are people even mentioning the Banshee, did anyone even read the OP? It's marines that are the problem, Banshees have nothing to do with it. Haven't you see the build TheBestfou does? Where he gets 2 reactor'd marine with tanks and skips banshees all together? That I find extremely harder to hold since you need to blindly make fast Collosi (Since nothing but AOE kills mass marines) but fast collosi loses to 1/1/1. Durp. Because banshees force you to make large numbers of stalkers instead of other units that you would want against marine/tank. But really, we can point at any unit in the Terran comp and say that it deserves a nerf (because they're all freaking good).
You should be making a few stalkers anyway, pure zealot isn't good against a lot of marines. This is coming from someone that has always held off 1/1/1 builds after I do a Huk 1G FE
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On August 22 2011 14:52 megapants wrote:
I'm just surprised that people are so against possibly nerfing T slightly. The only reason I would be pissed is if they nerfed T without even testing and then T was getting roflstomped all of a sudden. But extensive testing could lead to a more interesting matchup without greatly affecting T's overall potential.
I think any of the following nerfs could be gamechanging for this matchup, while still being reasonable.
- increase build time on Tech Lab (5-10 seconds?)
- increase cost of Raven/Banshee to require more gas
- reduce energy on PDD / give PDD ability a minor cooldown (.5-1 second)
- nerf marines jk
I'm no pro - just a lowly plat here - just speaking out so hopefully some more Brotoss' will be seen in GSL for my enjoyment
Theory crafting balance solutions isn't going to do much TBH. Blizzard is very smart with the decisions they make, if they do feel this is imbalanced then you can count on them to make the right changes--and I'm pretty sure if someone like IMMVP says this build is imbalanced then they are probably looking into it.
Time is better spent coming up with a way to beat it right now, however futile it may be
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On August 22 2011 14:52 megapants wrote:
I'm just surprised that people are so against possibly nerfing T slightly. The only reason I would be pissed is if they nerfed T without even testing and then T was getting roflstomped all of a sudden. But extensive testing could lead to a more interesting matchup without greatly affecting T's overall potential.
I think any of the following nerfs could be gamechanging for this matchup, while still being reasonable.
- increase build time on Tech Lab (5-10 seconds?)
- increase cost of Raven/Banshee to require more gas
- reduce energy on PDD / give PDD ability a minor cooldown (.5-1 second)
- nerf marines jk
I'm no pro - just a lowly plat here - just speaking out so hopefully some more Brotoss' will be seen in GSL for my enjoyment
Don't know why nerfing marines would be a bad idea, it would make HT builds less shit (Yes, a lot of marines are good against HT builds due to being able to gas dump everything on ghosts and marines rock gateway units). I actually think they could use a nerf in TvZ as well from what I've seen, I could be wrong though.
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On August 22 2011 15:01 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 14:12 fraktoasters wrote:On August 22 2011 14:07 Benzzro wrote:
Sigh...Why are people even mentioning the Banshee, did anyone even read the OP? It's marines that are the problem, Banshees have nothing to do with it. Haven't you see the build TheBestfou does? Where he gets 2 reactor'd marine with tanks and skips banshees all together? That I find extremely harder to hold since you need to blindly make fast Collosi (Since nothing but AOE kills mass marines) but fast collosi loses to 1/1/1. Durp. Because banshees force you to make large numbers of stalkers instead of other units that you would want against marine/tank. But really, we can point at any unit in the Terran comp and say that it deserves a nerf (because they're all freaking good). You should be making a few stalkers anyway, pure zealot isn't good against a lot of marines. This is coming from someone that has always held off 1/1/1 builds after I do a Huk 1G FE
Thats also my favorite opening. When I do hold off the 1-1-1. Its just because I have too much stuff.
Also flanking with a few zealots does wonders.
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On August 22 2011 15:04 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 14:52 megapants wrote:
I'm just surprised that people are so against possibly nerfing T slightly. The only reason I would be pissed is if they nerfed T without even testing and then T was getting roflstomped all of a sudden. But extensive testing could lead to a more interesting matchup without greatly affecting T's overall potential.
I think any of the following nerfs could be gamechanging for this matchup, while still being reasonable.
- increase build time on Tech Lab (5-10 seconds?)
- increase cost of Raven/Banshee to require more gas
- reduce energy on PDD / give PDD ability a minor cooldown (.5-1 second)
- nerf marines jk
I'm no pro - just a lowly plat here - just speaking out so hopefully some more Brotoss' will be seen in GSL for my enjoyment Don't know why nerfing marines would be a bad idea, it would make HT builds less shit (Yes, a lot of marines are good against HT builds due to being able to gas dump everything on ghosts and marines rock gateway units). I actually think they could use a nerf in TvZ as well from what I've seen, I could be wrong though.
I wouldnt do anything to marines. Though if I had to. It would just be to reduce the benefit that stimpack gave them, thats all. I guess to compensate reduce the damage it did to the marine.
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On August 22 2011 14:33 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:41 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 13:38 unit wrote:
im of the opinion that the nerfbat is not needed here...TvZ is perfectly fine as is, in addition to that PvZ recently has also been bad for protoss in korea, meaning that buffs might be more appropriate here An interesting thought, although what buff is a good question. That matchup is shifting every month with blizzard not doing anything. I think a buff is a bit of an oddball move to do. I think there's one or two things that can be tweaked without having too much effect on the other matchups (especially v Z), such as charge - if cost/research time was changed to same as blink, I don't think it'll have much impact imo? While it'd definitely help quite a bit against terran. although personally I strongly feel stalkers just need more damage against air~
i feel that charge isnt something that could come out in time to fight the 1/1/1 push (despite your name being zealot lord) while still having enough zealots, and that push is the only thing that i will label actually imbalanced, which is why i feel that a nerf isnt needed
the buffs i would suggest would be slight build-time tweaks and better upgrade scaling for stalkers,
the build times for warpgate were over nerffed i believe undoing that by 5-10 seconds will be enough to give that one extra warpin back as well as not revert PvP into 4gate v 4gate
another possibility would be to lower the warpgate build times for zealots by a few seconds, again for that extra warpin, it is my belief that one more warpin from 4-6 gates on 2base would be enough to adequately delay the 1/1/1 push
from there the problem becomes purely the banshees + pdd picking off the sentries, this could be fixed by a slight nerf to pdd or by increasing the stalker firerate (dps) slightly (not sure on impact to PvZ, but fairly certain that blink stalker would still get wrecked by infestorling)
just a few ideas, i feel like ptr needs to be used more to actually test stuff rather than just to give a preview to changes that blizzard has already decided to implement which is what it feels like now
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On August 22 2011 15:07 unit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 14:33 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 22 2011 13:41 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 13:38 unit wrote:
im of the opinion that the nerfbat is not needed here...TvZ is perfectly fine as is, in addition to that PvZ recently has also been bad for protoss in korea, meaning that buffs might be more appropriate here An interesting thought, although what buff is a good question. That matchup is shifting every month with blizzard not doing anything. I think a buff is a bit of an oddball move to do. I think there's one or two things that can be tweaked without having too much effect on the other matchups (especially v Z), such as charge - if cost/research time was changed to same as blink, I don't think it'll have much impact imo? While it'd definitely help quite a bit against terran. although personally I strongly feel stalkers just need more damage against air~ i feel that charge isnt something that could come out in time to fight the 1/1/1 push (despite your name being zealot lord) while still having enough zealots, and that push is the only thing that i will label actually imbalanced, which is why i feel that a nerf isnt needed the buffs i would suggest would be slight build-time tweaks and better upgrade scaling for stalkers, the build times for warpgate were over nerffed i believe undoing that by 5-10 seconds will be enough to give that one extra warpin back as well as not revert PvP into 4gate v 4gate another possibility would be to lower the warpgate build times for zealots by a few seconds, again for that extra warpin, it is my belief that one more warpin from 4-6 gates on 2base would be enough to adequately delay the 1/1/1 push from there the problem becomes purely the banshees + pdd picking off the sentries, this could be fixed by a slight nerf to pdd or by increasing the stalker firerate (dps) slightly (not sure on impact to PvZ, but fairly certain that blink stalker would still get wrecked by infestorling) just a few ideas, i feel like ptr needs to be used more to actually test stuff rather than just to give a preview to changes that blizzard has already decided to implement which is what it feels like now
You can chrono out legs in time for most, but not all, 1-1-1 attack variations.
For the times you can, its the best, for the times you can't its less than ideal.
And thats part of the problem. Terran is just massing units inside his base, and you have to pick a build depending on how long terran feels like sitting there. When there is not telegraph, its really tricky.
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What about stealing the second gas of the Terran early game. Wouldn't that significantly delay this build? Also, it doesn't cost the protoss a whole lot.
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i actually believe the OP. my gut instinct says its probably imba.
remember he is sorta quoting al ot of korean sources. the opposite side we get tyler's opinion and thats not a clear statement that its not imbalanced.
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On August 22 2011 09:11 MenSol[ZerO] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 22 2011 08:55 Dommk wrote:
*shrugs*
If someone as good as IMMVP consideres this build imbalanced then I'm sure it will get nerfed.
Unless someone actually comes up wit ha ridiculous build order for Protoss that allows them to scout and get an early expansion whilst being safe to other Terran all-ins...if that ever happens PM me because that sounds too fucking good to be true so you want protoss to be able to fast expo, scout everything and be safe to all terran allins? lol
So, you want to terran to be able to tech like crazy, scout everything and be safe to all protoss allins?
Enjoy yourself some 1-1-1.
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EPT
