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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
1/1/1 has been defeated several times.
Recent examples:
xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 .
Genius did it against thorzain in gstl.
MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.)
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent.
You obviously don't understand simple things, how you can you even judge when "they play better than their opponent" ?
I don't even know why I'm even trying to respond, ignorant comments like that are probably part of TL 
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On August 22 2011 17:22 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. One base war of nutricion vs Terran? Sure as hell you'd lose that, Terran floats his OC over to the natural, you create a Nexus at 400$, you are 60 secs and 400 moneyzz behind. gg MC did the best thing he could possibly do.
I think you mean war of attrition  .
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On August 22 2011 17:06 Biane wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:00 Die4Ever wrote:On August 22 2011 16:56 Lobber wrote:On August 22 2011 16:41 Sotamursu wrote:
What about making banshees armored? That way stalkers would kill them faster and less stalkers would be needed to to kill the banshees during a push. Then it would take 2X as long for phoenixes to kill them, though, voidrays would be neat. Yea, make them armored and massive so void rays own them, lol jk. I think it might be worth making them armored so that stalkers can beat them, since you'll probably want to go robo anyways in case they get cloak. Not that it matters in a mirror matchup but it will make thors zoning out banshees in TvT mech a little harder
It would also make (double) stargate openers in TvZ a bit stronger since it will require queens 18 shots instead of 16 to kill a banshee.
I don't really know if this is that significant though, but as is, i'm already scared of good banshee control.
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On August 22 2011 17:24 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
1/1/1 has been defeated several times.
Recent examples:
xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 .
Genius did it against thorzain in gstl.
MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.)
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. You obviously don't understand simple things, how you can you even judge when "they play better than their opponent" ? I don't even know why I'm even trying to respond, ignorant comments like that are probably part of TL
Uhm...its true, he has observers out and chose to expand insted of commiting to staying alive, even though he had every opportunity to see Puma's army.
Having a rough economy is better than just dying, beleive it or not.
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On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
1/1/1 has been defeated several times.
Recent examples:
xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 .
Genius did it against thorzain in gstl.
MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.)
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent.
Then you must be blind. Genius beat thorzain because thorzain's execution was god awful. 2 of his 3 tanks ere unsieged the entire engagement, and he threw down an auto turret instead of a pdd against quite a few stalkers. It was an all around massive fail.
MC had to re-expand, considering the amount of probes he had. He easily paid off the cost and then some with it. Protoss has to expand early against 1/1/1 as well.
I didn't see the marineking game.
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Anyone able to translate MC's new twitter post on it?
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Please stop with the balance change theorycrafting, it's really unproductive and frankly horribly tedious to have to skip over.
Anyway, my question about stargate oriented builds - wouldn't 1-2 Void Rays be better anti-air since they aren't affected by the PDD? I know marines chew them up but these are unstimmed and the role of anti-air is to deny high ground vision for the siege tanks, which Puma got by PDD-ing the ramp and moving banshees up.
Personally, I think robo tech isn't the appropriate solution to 1/1/1, going for fast HT seems far superior since a single storm will eliminate the unupgraded marines, feedback will one-shot uncloaked Banshees and a half-energy Raven, and archons should work well to break siege lines.
The danger of course is that robo is required for mobile detection, which is a must for cloaked banshee. Can't you take cloak off the table by gas stealing? (I personally think both Z and P should always gas steal unless they are denied from entering the base)
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On August 22 2011 17:28 enecateReAP wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:24 DertoQq wrote:On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
1/1/1 has been defeated several times.
Recent examples:
xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 .
Genius did it against thorzain in gstl.
MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.)
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. You obviously don't understand simple things, how you can you even judge when "they play better than their opponent" ? I don't even know why I'm even trying to respond, ignorant comments like that are probably part of TL Uhm...its true, he has observers out and chose to expand insted of commiting to staying alive, even though he had every opportunity to see Puma's army. Having a rough economy is better than just dying, beleive it or not.
Well that's not true. If you can chose between
- Die later in the game for sure, unless Puma kills his own OC by mistake.
- Have a small chance of not getting attack and winning the game in the long run.
Which one would you choose? When you're behind you need to take risks to win.
So, a chance at dying straight away is better than dying later for sure, beleive it or not.
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On August 22 2011 17:28 enecateReAP wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:24 DertoQq wrote:On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
1/1/1 has been defeated several times.
Recent examples:
xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 .
Genius did it against thorzain in gstl.
MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.)
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. You obviously don't understand simple things, how you can you even judge when "they play better than their opponent" ? I don't even know why I'm even trying to respond, ignorant comments like that are probably part of TL Uhm...its true, he has observers out and chose to expand insted of commiting to staying alive, even though he had every opportunity to see Puma's army. Having a rough economy is better than just dying, beleive it or not.
You know, if this is a one base all-in that you can defend, and still not be able to expand afterwards, then isn't that enough reason to nerf it? The fact that a Terran can force you to 1base till you mine out, isn't that absolutely fucking retarded?
Seriously, even if this build was defendable off 1 base, it would still be stupid is as hell, and subject to a nerf because it fucks up the game too much. Stuff was nerfed for far less in the past.
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This build is something that definitely needs a fix. Whether this fix is a Blizzard-nerf or some sneaky new way for P to handle it is still to be determined.
It's been a while since a match-up was completely broken, but I feel that this is currently the case with TvP. I have a hard time seeing how, in a competitive Bo5, a Protoss can come out on top. It's too much of a guessing game, and as been said several times before in this thread, the protoss can never get a straight build-order-win when the terran does a 1-1-1-all-in. He can absolutely win the game, but never simply due to his choice of strategy, making the terran very, very confident going for 1-1-1 even without any scouting information at all.
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On August 22 2011 17:28 enecateReAP wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 17:24 DertoQq wrote:On August 22 2011 17:12 rareh wrote:
1/1/1 has been defeated several times.
Recent examples:
xaiot did it against marineking in StarsWar Killer 6 .
Genius did it against thorzain in gstl.
MC did it against puma(1st wave, he lost to 2nd cause he built the nexus again instead of investing in his army, that is what u get for being greedy, MC deserved to lose.)
Haven't seen anyone lose to 1/1/1 when they play better then their opponent. You obviously don't understand simple things, how you can you even judge when "they play better than their opponent" ? I don't even know why I'm even trying to respond, ignorant comments like that are probably part of TL Uhm...its true, he has observers out and chose to expand insted of commiting to staying alive, even though he had every opportunity to see Puma's army. Having a rough economy is better than just dying, beleive it or not.
So, are you telling me staying on 1 base all the time is better to win vs terran because "having a rough economy is better than dying" ? I guess every single pro-player are doing it wrong then, you should tell them.
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I dont understand why this should be imbalanced but the terrans i play against are not nearly on the same skill level than korean master players. But i think its a thing that will come back to the discussion " Are mules op?!"
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i actually applaud puma for doing 1-1-1 in the finals
puma even made some mistakes in his 1-1-1 and they werent perfect. puma got supply capped early game and had 5 marines queue'ed at a single rax early game, could have easily put that to better use to produce a stronger push
i wonder how the hell a toss can stop a perfect 1-1-1 when puma's sloppy 1-1-1 still crushed MC who went stargate blink to counter it
EDIT: we call it 1-1-1, however puma did a variation where he got 2 raxes instead of a reactored rax. puma did a 2-1-1 but its pretty much the same
i applaud puma for doing the 1-1-1 however, because it needs to be done in high level tournaments for us to see if there really is any way to stop it. and if it keeps happening, then blizzard needs to see it in high level scenarios to really know how to fix it
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On August 22 2011 17:38 roymarthyup wrote:
i actually applaud puma for doing 1-1-1 in the finals
puma even made some mistakes in his 1-1-1 and they werent perfect. puma got supply capped early game and had 5 marines queue'ed at a single rax early game, could have easily put that to better use to produce a stronger push
i wonder how the hell a toss can stop a perfect 1-1-1 when puma's sloppy 1-1-1 still crushed MC who went stargate blink to counter it
EDIT: we call it 1-1-1, however puma did a variation where he got 2 raxes instead of a reactored rax. puma did a 2-1-1 but its pretty much the same
i applaud puma for doing the 1-1-1 however, because it needs to be done in high level tournaments for us to see if there really is any way to stop it. and if it keeps happening, then blizzard needs to see it in high level scenarios to really know how to fix it
It's already happening in every high level tournament in korea, what more needs to happen?
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Did anyone cringe when they saw Mc's last game? He was at the point where he had absolutely no idea how to stop the incoming all in, he had to come up with the most elaborate strategy ever. Forcing a base race with blink stalkers and dts, I thought he went insane, but surely this build drives Protoss players insane.
I mean how out of it do you have to be for base racing the only chance to succeed?
Mc is still badass though, even if he loses to ridiculous builds.
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On August 22 2011 06:06 naventus wrote:
This entire discussion is absurd, there are just as many P allin variations that are equally impossible to scout.
Are you able to provide evidence for these claims, with conclusive pro-gamer replays demonstrating your point?
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On August 22 2011 16:00 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 15:28 kochujang wrote:On August 22 2011 14:52 HolyArrow wrote:
Let's assume the 1-1-1 all-in is actually imbalanced.
Telling Protoss players to wait until HotS (probably around 7 months, according to wikipedia) for an actual fix is completely ridiculous. I don't even say this as a player, or on the behalf of any random ladder players - I say this more as a devoted fan of many Protoss pros who practice just as much as the players of any other race, yet, if the 1-1-1 is truly imbalanced, will have to wait until HotS for the playing ground to be evened up. People need to realize that success is how pros make a living. It brings them money, prestige, and motivation. You can't just casually say "Welp, looks like a core design problem, guess you'll have to wait until HotS" to people that fucking make their living off of this game. That's is completely and utterly bullshit, and wholly unfair. I personally think that if band-aid solutions need to be released, then fine, let that be the case. You can't ask people whose lives revolve around the game to sit tight and wait even if a design revamp including a Protoss harass unit and other factors that Dustin Browder mentioned is the best solution, because the best solution is basically jeopardizing the efforts of hundreds, maybe even thousands of Protoss pros/aspiring pros who don't deserve that crap. Well, if there is a band-aid solution out there to fix an imbalance, then it should be used. You have to use the right tools though. If changing the game itself is problematic, because of unforeseen bi-effects it may have or the problem is just very complicated, then changing the map-pool is the second best band-aid solution. It is also the easiest and safest solution of all, and something which can be done without any involvement from Blizzard. So, why use the "wait for HotS "-argument you ask? Well, if the band-aid is going to shake up the balance a lot, then better wait for the SC2 expansion. The balance is going to be a mess when HotS is released, so it is the best time to make radical changes. Each patch change have the potential to skew a lot of timings, and it is hard for pro gamers if they constantly need to revise their builds and timing. Changing maps seem to be the safest solution as opposed to patching the game, especially considering the complex issue of 1/1/1 TvP. A bunch of things wrong with this. its actually simpler to balance it NOW, while there's less confounding variables on the field. IF HOTS brings in anything new, those new things can be balanced around what the game already is, that is, if you balance it well before HOTS comes out. Im not buying HOTS. Not for the single player, and if its going to have new units, not for them either. am I going to be blocked from playing ladder? Im not going to shell out for a purely PR money grab. Will the game then be unbalanced for me, if I get to keep playing ladder with WOL? Will I sit here experiencing the aftershocks of balance changes to units I don't even use that will become staple units and thus will create a hole in my army from its lack? Balancing it at all stages requires that you start with the first, balance addons aaround that first until thats good, and then keep doing that. Waiting until HOTS to do everything at once is a shitty idea from any programmer's standpoint. Its simply a PR move for you to buy it.
Perhaps I was a bit unclear. The reason why I suggested to change the maps instead of patching it, is because it is not so clear cut to know what to change:
Example:
Bunker too strong: nerf Bunker (build-time/refund)
Void-Rays too strong: nerf Void-Ray (change DPS/range/remove speed upgrade)
Templars too strong: nerf Templars (remove amulet)
Infestors too weak: buff infestors
1/1/1 too strong on smaller maps on TvP: What should we buff or nerf? Where is the main problem? Scouting? Banshee DPS? Marine DPS? Terran flexibility? Zealot usability? Stalker DPS? Immortal usability? Will this affect other matchups? Is this a problem in the later stages of the game?
The chances that we break more than we fix (or if it is fixed at all) are perhaps too big. Changing the maps is perhaps the easiest and surest way to fix this, and has been done before. I would welcome a patch which fixes this problem once and for all, but what should Blizzard tweak?
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MC:
Ninety-four not yet earned the game felt fully assess the situation and my hands were slow to recognize and perfect, so that more effort should do that. 111 Incidentally, the reason we have a powerful Protoss Protoss units splash damage poisonous insect, even I could have only a three-tier ... Marines etc.
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Replace Collossus with Reaver, buff Warp Prism life.
Think about it, does anyone really like the herpaderp A-move Collossus unit? I have a feeling even Protoss players might feel like they're just crossing their fingers going "I hope he doesn't have enough Vikings/Corrupters" when they choose this tech path.
The Reaver would still fill the AOE damage role and with a buff to Warp Prism life we could see some sweet Reaver play going on. Imagine a single scarab blowing up a clump of marines and SCVs from the 1-1-1 all-in Korean Protoss have been QQing about (and the NA/EU Tosses who followed suit) or backstabbing a clump of trigger-happy Infestors.
I think replacing the Collossus with the Reaver and buffing Warp Prism life would help with both PvZ and PvT and add a microable unit to the Protoss arsenel. Protoss often complain about not having enough harass units, now they'd get their shuttle drops back. And how funny would it be to see a Warp Prism with Reavers chasing down a Medivac (to counter drops)? It always seems like Protoss players struggle with ling run-ins and Medivac drops, good Reaver usage could shut those down. Bio play would probably not be the end-all TvP build nor would mass ling/Infestor.
As a T player, it's pretty gross seeing 1-1-1 dominate every Protoss in KR; doing it myself and rolling over NA Protoss as well. Just throwing it out there, I think giving Protoss a skill-based tool rather than straight buffing their units is something every race could appreciate.
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Rough google translations to tide us over until a real translator chooses to help us (wub you guys <3)
Ninety-four not yet earned the game felt fully assess the situation and my hands were slow to recognize and perfect, so that more effort should do that. 111 Incidentally, the reason we have a powerful Protoss Protoss units splash damage poisonous insect, even I could have only a three-tier ... Marines etc.
xxx
I think he wants banelings? uh Wish he had microed better so more practice will fix it... blames loss on not using splash the only feature that makes toss so strong?
Interesting tweets actually lol.
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EPT
