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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 20:32 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:23 Daniel C wrote:On August 22 2011 19:54 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
Thing is, a Terran can have near perfect information about what the Protoss is doing - they will always have an SCV in your main long before you can have a Stalker out, they have the option to follow that up with a scan if they are worried afterwards, or even simply running a stimmed Marauder into your base.
As Protoss, you have absolutely no way of scouting the opponent's early game builds, AND you HAVE to choose the correct opening to be able to fend off the potential all ins or keep yourself even for a macro game. There isn't a single 'safe' build you can use, and you cannot, no matter what you do, actually have the scouting needed to establish what your opponent is doing to react correctly. Hint: if you see a stimmed marauder in your base, its not a 1/1/1. Hint: Stupid comments don't make you look cool. If you see a stimmed marauder in your base you still have no idea whether it's a Marauder expand, a 2rax pressure, a 3 rax medivac allin, or some variation of thereof? As for saying that Blink Stalkers, of any variation, or a DT rush counters 1/1/1... I can just sigh at that. Raven completely negates any possibilities of that working.
Bro are you like serious right now? A stimmed marauder in your base to scout? xD
Edit: a stimmed marauder in your base and you have no idea whether its a 2rax pressure oO. Please just refrain from making comments.
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I like the pros' opinion in this thread. They are helping a lot in developing ideas how to stop this. "You don't have to be that greedy vs terran" and "You can hold it without going 1 gate nexus or 15 nexus".
You are being very helpful to everyone. Now everyone knows how to stop it. Thanks.
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On August 22 2011 05:55 MeanMike wrote:
master P here, it requires minimal skill to pull off and has a 90%+ winrate, seems pretty imbalanced to me.
User was warned for this post
master is quite far from actualy being a skilled player, and to be fair at high levels the terran has to micro perfectly which if you do this is strong yes, focus fire with tanks, pull back focused banshes and stutter step marines at the same time is not so easy
-gm T
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I think this is really just a build that hasnt been used as much and instead of people trying to figure out how to counter it, they turn to complaining first. I think that Tylers post on page 1 or 2 was spot on. I was especially happy to see him say that a toss doesnt need to expand at 15 probes. I really dont think its anything that requires a nerf, just some tweaks to builds here and there. IMO, this is just a metagame shift and it will be a viable - but beatable - build for the terran army.
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On August 22 2011 20:32 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:23 Daniel C wrote:On August 22 2011 19:54 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
Thing is, a Terran can have near perfect information about what the Protoss is doing - they will always have an SCV in your main long before you can have a Stalker out, they have the option to follow that up with a scan if they are worried afterwards, or even simply running a stimmed Marauder into your base.
As Protoss, you have absolutely no way of scouting the opponent's early game builds, AND you HAVE to choose the correct opening to be able to fend off the potential all ins or keep yourself even for a macro game. There isn't a single 'safe' build you can use, and you cannot, no matter what you do, actually have the scouting needed to establish what your opponent is doing to react correctly. Hint: if you see a stimmed marauder in your base, its not a 1/1/1. Hint: Stupid comments don't make you look cool. If you see a stimmed marauder in your base you still have no idea whether it's a Marauder expand, a 2rax pressure, a 3 rax medivac allin, or some variation of thereof? As for saying that Blink Stalkers, of any variation, or a DT rush counters 1/1/1... I can just sigh at that. Raven completely negates any possibilities of that working.
-_- how many people look at the amount of stuff coming at you + a raven negates blink stalkers? y not force pdd like zerg and terran force ff's? come on
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On August 22 2011 20:18 VitaLetum wrote:
some builds we feel work VERY well
3 gate stargate (phoenix build; use much like mutas and snipe tanks with some well placed ff's and zealot bait ( some stalkers are needed for 2nd wave)
1 gate fe as said
1 gate robo (sentry opening) add +2 gates when able)
3 gate dt rush
3 gate blink
3 gate robo blink (much harder to use)
4 gate blink all in
with blink i like to say that you would walk in and snipe a tank and or banshee then blink out however im not a protoss player this is what a teammate feels.
3 gate star - 1 gate star into 2 more gates is feasible, but also a counter all in rather than a defensice response.
1 gate fe - Debatable, which is what this entire thread is about
1 gate robo - same as 1 gate star.
3 gate DT - I actually burst out laughing... the 1-1-1 is designed to be the shit out of a dt build... you have time for a scan and ample access to a raven... unless you're thinking some wanky build that uses DT archons...
3 gate blink/4 gate blink - You do realize you need 15 stalkers to 1 shot a tank... right? Do you realize a single thor with 8 scv's can kill 9 stalkers.. by itself? Blink is a dead end tech that leaves you gasping for stalkers as marines swarm you to linebacker for tanks... This is completely ignoring the fact that with a raven it would, hilariously, take 35 stalkers to 1 shot a siege tank xDDD
3 gate robo blink - perhaps... but I really feel that responding to the 1-1-1 with blink is a bit too haphazard...
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On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about
Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1?
"Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen".
"1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not.
Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end.
EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play.
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On August 22 2011 20:39 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:18 VitaLetum wrote:
some builds we feel work VERY well
3 gate stargate (phoenix build; use much like mutas and snipe tanks with some well placed ff's and zealot bait ( some stalkers are needed for 2nd wave)
1 gate fe as said
1 gate robo (sentry opening) add +2 gates when able)
3 gate dt rush
3 gate blink
3 gate robo blink (much harder to use)
4 gate blink all in
with blink i like to say that you would walk in and snipe a tank and or banshee then blink out however im not a protoss player this is what a teammate feels.
3 gate star - 1 gate star into 2 more gates is feasible, but also a counter all in rather than a defensice response. 1 gate fe - Debatable, which is what this entire thread is about 1 gate robo - same as 1 gate star. 3 gate DT - I actually burst out laughing... the 1-1-1 is designed to be the shit out of a dt build... you have time for a scan and ample access to a raven... unless you're thinking some wanky build that uses DT archons... 3 gate blink/4 gate blink - You do realize you need 15 stalkers to 1 shot a tank... right? Do you realize a single thor with 8 scv's can kill 9 stalkers.. by itself? Blink is a dead end tech that leaves you gasping for stalkers as marines swarm you to linebacker for tanks... This is completely ignoring the fact that with a raven it would, hilariously, take 35 stalkers to 1 shot a siege tank xDDD 3 gate robo blink - perhaps... but I really feel that responding to the 1-1-1 with blink is a bit too haphazard...
i feel dealing damage even to make T repair or just taking out a marine our two at a time lessens the hurt of the 2nd wave. as i said there is a lot more time i think that needs to be involved 1st
EDIT : spelling
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On August 22 2011 20:38 VitaLetum wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:32 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:On August 22 2011 20:23 Daniel C wrote:On August 22 2011 19:54 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
Thing is, a Terran can have near perfect information about what the Protoss is doing - they will always have an SCV in your main long before you can have a Stalker out, they have the option to follow that up with a scan if they are worried afterwards, or even simply running a stimmed Marauder into your base.
As Protoss, you have absolutely no way of scouting the opponent's early game builds, AND you HAVE to choose the correct opening to be able to fend off the potential all ins or keep yourself even for a macro game. There isn't a single 'safe' build you can use, and you cannot, no matter what you do, actually have the scouting needed to establish what your opponent is doing to react correctly. Hint: if you see a stimmed marauder in your base, its not a 1/1/1. Hint: Stupid comments don't make you look cool. If you see a stimmed marauder in your base you still have no idea whether it's a Marauder expand, a 2rax pressure, a 3 rax medivac allin, or some variation of thereof? As for saying that Blink Stalkers, of any variation, or a DT rush counters 1/1/1... I can just sigh at that. Raven completely negates any possibilities of that working. -_- how many people look at the amount of stuff coming at you + a raven negates blink stalkers? y not force pdd like zerg and terran force ff's? come on
It's not that you can't force PDD, it's that if you move forward to attack you lose excess of 2-3 stalkers every time you attempt to "snipe" an important unit. Stalkers have 6 range, sure it's 1.5 greater than that of marines... but it's SERIOUSLY not enough leeway to snipe tanks.... or thors... or even banshees... The only real problem is on smaller maps where you can only feasible engage a good Terran two or three times even from the base of their natural... seriously reducing the amount of damage and forced sieging you could on a larger map. Marines/tanks/thors/banshees are all strong units by cost against stalkers even with blink.
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On August 22 2011 20:32 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:23 Daniel C wrote:On August 22 2011 19:54 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote:
Thing is, a Terran can have near perfect information about what the Protoss is doing - they will always have an SCV in your main long before you can have a Stalker out, they have the option to follow that up with a scan if they are worried afterwards, or even simply running a stimmed Marauder into your base.
As Protoss, you have absolutely no way of scouting the opponent's early game builds, AND you HAVE to choose the correct opening to be able to fend off the potential all ins or keep yourself even for a macro game. There isn't a single 'safe' build you can use, and you cannot, no matter what you do, actually have the scouting needed to establish what your opponent is doing to react correctly. Hint: if you see a stimmed marauder in your base, its not a 1/1/1. Hint: Stupid comments don't make you look cool. If you see a stimmed marauder in your base you still have no idea whether it's a Marauder expand, a 2rax pressure, a 3 rax medivac allin, or some variation of thereof? As for saying that Blink Stalkers, of any variation, or a DT rush counters 1/1/1... I can just sigh at that. Raven completely negates any possibilities of that working.
I'm sure this thread is to discuss 1/1/1, not 2 rax or w/e and the guy you quoted is correct. If you have an early stimmed marauder in your base scouting then you are not going to get 1/1/1 unless it's very very very delayed. So I don't get why you bring up 2 rax pressure and all those other builds.
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On August 22 2011 20:37 CaptainCrush wrote:
I think this is really just a build that hasnt been used as much and instead of people trying to figure out how to counter it, they turn to complaining first. I think that Tylers post on page 1 or 2 was spot on. I was especially happy to see him say that a toss doesnt need to expand at 15 probes. I really dont think its anything that requires a nerf, just some tweaks to builds here and there. IMO, this is just a metagame shift and it will be a viable - but beatable - build for the terran army.
If you actually read the OP you will understand that expanding is the best way to hold it off. If you 1 base you're just going to have less units and you will be contained in your base while the Terran is free to expand.
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Hmm, I've kept my eye on this thread for a bit without wading in. After all, I'm only a gold random, what do I know? =P
But here's my general thoughts on it:
The 1-1-1, whilst powerful, does have a few counters from Protoss. However there seems to be a bit of a disparity in skill required to attack to skill required to defend. Terran players are also able to modify their build on the fly quite easily which can disarm a Protoss player's selected counter. As it's not an all-in as Terran players can send more than 1 wave, and are also able to expand behind it.
Anyway, though I can definitely see that Protoss players can stop the 1-1-1, I still find it an imbalanced situation. Perhaps Protoss players will become so good at holding and transitioning out of it that it will remove this belief, like how Reapers in TvZ used to be hard to hold, yet by the time they patched zergs had learned to hold it well enough.
Will Blizzard do anything about it? Probably not, most likely any changes from HotS will affect this matchup enough that Blizzard won't bother patching the game for this whilst trying to work HotS balances.
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Due to the multiple variable 1/1/1 builds, protoss can't defend it every time because each variation has a different/slightly different counter.
One of the other real headaches is its difficult to scout whether the terran is expanding off the 1/1/1 or going all in. This means terrans can keep making scvs and u can't scout without risk of losing obs to raven/marine.
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What I noticed about the all in is actually how strong the PDD makes it ? Having the ability to shut down the main protoss range defenders so early in the game with 1 spell is really overpowered. The combination with high dps class such as marines, ranged heavy hitters such as tanks, and decent dpsers such as banshees really makes this build really fucking good.
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On August 22 2011 20:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1? "Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen". "1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not. Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end. EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play.
hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro
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On August 22 2011 20:37 snowroller1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 05:55 MeanMike wrote:
master P here, it requires minimal skill to pull off and has a 90%+ winrate, seems pretty imbalanced to me.
User was warned for this post master is quite far from actualy being a skilled player, and to be fair at high levels the terran has to micro perfectly which if you do this is strong yes, focus fire with tanks, pull back focused banshes and stutter step marines at the same time is not so easy -gm T
ahahah rofl you made my day sir
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On August 22 2011 20:41 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 20:28 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way. please tell me the builds you are talking about Exactly. "If you prepare against it, you'll most likely defend it" hardly seems to be true at this point. Terran building Bunkers that "cost" 25 Minerals or Turrets that cost 150 Minerals is a HUGE difference from Protoss choosing the incorrect Tech Path against a Terran. "You can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area" Terrans get greedy and don't build a Bunker + Turret which costs 175 Minerals (300 if you want to get really picky and count the Engineering Bay you're going to get for upgrades anyway). Thorzain, you're basically acknowledging that Terrans can 1 Rax FE (or possibly even 14CC) two of the greediest builds in the game, and with a 175 (300 -_-) Mineral investment, be almost perfectly safe against ANY Protoss All-In, and you're comparing that to countering the 1-1-1? "Phoenix Chargelot is regarded to a pretty good counter to 1-1-1" I've yet to see a super-high level game where Phoenix-Chargelot beats 1-1-1. I've seen games in the GSL where a player goes blind Stargate into Phoenix-Chargelot and loses pretty soundly, so I'm going to go with "pretty good" meaning "the closest I've seen". "1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with builds other than 1 Base, 1Gate Expo, or Nexus first" What builds? You can say "It's holdable" but until ANYONE actually accomplishes it against a player of equal skill level, it's not. Seriously, I like you as a player, but this is just an embarrassing post. Sorry ThorZain, Terran is pretty OP with this build. I was actually at least mildly surprised we didn't see a reaction to this like we did to 5 Rax Reaper from Blizzards end. EDIT: I would just like to throw in here, for the 1,000th time in this thread, the reason 1-1-1 is suddenly popular again is because with the Voidray Nerf, and the Warp Gate nerf, combined with a few other minor balance tweaks,as well as this build not being popular at that point in the metagame left it in a powerful position, one which is now being exploited by Terran players at every level of play.
Your saying that terrans can 1rax FE and 14 CC and be almost completely safe?
Dude, I'd like to see your statistics on this.
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On August 22 2011 20:37 CaptainCrush wrote:
I think this is really just a build that hasnt been used as much and instead of people trying to figure out how to counter it, they turn to complaining first.
wtf ?? This build is here since beta. I faced it like 100times for last year
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hope you realize that for a terran to put up 3-4 bunkers to be safe against an all in + turret will put you so far behind if he doesnt all in its almost instant gg, you wont have the money to tech to deal with things like hts or collosus. as long as protoss scouts the 1/1/1 which is easy to do its easy to hold with good micro
Well you could just scan and then know whether it's an all-in or not and regardless even if you make 8 bunkers its only 200 minerals at the end of the day (350 with turret) which is far less than going down the wrong tech tree/cutting probes for 2-3 minutes.
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On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing.
Unfortunately 1/1/1 is better than any protoss 1 base build you can do?
Additionally the later you expand the less chance you have of holding it off?
I am curious if you could answer these questions.
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EPT
