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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Even when we don't see it, it influences games, like SangHo going 15nex every game against Select, or Polt tricking people with his 2raxs. And after the latest WG nerf 4gate really is just a horrible build. If you can't hold it in your sleep after scouting it you're really, really bad. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
If both players execute perfectly Protoss will have to cancel the nexus. You simply don't have enough units. It is map dependent of course. On something like Shakuras, sure, you can hold it easily with FF. Xel'naga? No, you're cancelling it. You don't have enough units when it hits a few moments before warp gate finishes. They'll always get free hits at the Nexus. | ||
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ArhK
France287 Posts
On August 22 2011 21:12 DertoQq wrote: 1 - Hallucination cost more than an overlord 2 - Hallucination come AFTER your 4-gate, so there is no point scouting if you already choose to 4gate. 3 - 4-gate won't work vs 1-1-1 (or any kind of all-in for that matter) Ok, thanks for Hallucination's details. Regarding the 4 gate, I am curious why it doesn't work. Until Mid Master it works very well, once you scouted the racks with reactor you are able to go for it and be in the timings. | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:03 aksfjh wrote: lol "easy" 4 gate is still a strong build and takes a lot of time to learn how to hold a proper one off. The problem with this thread is all the damn terran haters out there who sit around all day looking for theorycraft to explain why THEY suck balls. 99% of the people in this topic would just as likely lose to 1-1-1 as a 2 rax marine all-in. I don't thing people care because they lose against it on ladder, they care because pro-players lose against it and they seems not being able to find a solution. I don't think puma would have any problem holding a 4 gate from MC for example ^^ | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:06 ArhK wrote: Ok, thanks for Hallucination's details. Regarding the 4 gate, I am curious why it doesn't work. Until Mid Master it works very well, once you scouted the racks with reactor you are able to go for it and be in the timings. Zealot/stalker 4gate just dies to repair basically. Marines have such great DPS and stalkers, um, don't, so even with fairly low numbers as long as they pull their SCVs they'll be fine. Sentry based 4gate is better but it's later so they'll have lots of marines. Terran should be able to survive until their tank comes out and then you can't do anything cause even an unsieged tank brutalises stalkers. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:17 samd wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but how is this any difference from the Terran version of a 4gate? You protoss used to pull a strong timing build all the time, now you're getting the taste of one and the tears start flowing? On August 22 2011 22:03 aksfjh wrote: lol "easy" 4 gate is still a strong build and takes a lot of time to learn how to hold a proper one off. The problem with this thread is all the damn terran haters out there who sit around all day looking for theorycraft to explain why THEY suck balls. 99% of the people in this topic would just as likely lose to 1-1-1 as a 2 rax marine all-in. This is a relatively new build and hasn't completely taken over the metagame yet. When you start to see this, or a variation of it, in nearly every PvT, then you can start talking about how it's "ridiculously OP." This has nothing to do with "Terrans getting their revenge from 4 gate days and Protoss crying" it has to do with the game being balanced. The 4 gate was overpowered, and it got nerfed. The 1-1-1 is incredibly difficult to stop. I can stop 2 or 3 rax all day with a 3 gate expand. It isn't difficult since the stim timing nerf and the increase in bunker build time. The 1-1-1 is an entirely different beast, that requires much more scouting, much better unit control, and better timings. Comparing a 2 rax to the 1-1-1 is like comparing a proxy 2 gate to a 4 gate. | ||
zatic
Zurich15366 Posts
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:03 aksfjh wrote: I'm not sure what's so hard about box selecting some SCVs and right clicking on your bunker, but.....is there something about Terran players that makes this take a lot of time to learn how to do?lol "easy" 4 gate is still a strong build and takes a lot of time to learn how to hold a proper one off. The problem with this thread is all the damn terran haters out there who sit around all day looking for theorycraft to explain why THEY suck balls. 99% of the people in this topic would just as likely lose to 1-1-1 as a 2 rax marine all-in. This is a relatively new build and hasn't completely taken over the metagame yet. When you start to see this, or a variation of it, in nearly every PvT, then you can start talking about how it's "ridiculously OP." | ||
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DertoQq
France906 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:09 Yaotzin wrote: Zealot/stalker 4gate just dies to repair basically. Marines have such great DPS and stalkers, um, don't, so even with fairly low numbers as long as they pull their SCVs they'll be fine. Sentry based 4gate is better but it's later so they'll have lots of marines. Terran should be able to survive until their tank comes out and then you can't do anything cause even an unsieged tank brutalises stalkers. A 4-gate works to punish a terran who is expanding too fast. If the terran is on his way to do an all-in he will have more than enough to beat it. And once he has beenshes or tanks, it's even worse. | ||
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Mozicelj
Slovenia21 Posts
If terran goes 1 base all in, I go 1 base with a stargate and it works fine. p.s.: If terran gets a cloaked banshee, I suggest a mothership for the cloaking field to protect the probes!!!  | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:12 Mozicelj wrote: As a protoss I do not find 1/1/1 op. If terran goes 1 base all in, I go 1 base with a stargate and it works fine. p.s.: If terran gets a cloaked banshee, I suggest a mothership for the cloaking field to protect the probes!!! The problem with stargate is that it's a blind build. If your opponent opens 1Racks FE or 2 Racks you are behind on tech and on economy. From that point you have to go for an all-in | ||
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goswser
United States3548 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:07 Grumbels wrote: I think more dangerous than the current supposed imbalance of 1-1-1 is the ongoing perception Terran is the strongest race. The domination of Code S by Terrans is for a big part because all aspiring pro players know to pick Terran, resulting in more really good Terran pros. Why would any really good brood war pro switch and pick protoss? Correction: the domination of Code S and Code A by terrans, as well as their domination on the korean server. Also 1-1-1 is dangerous because it takes advantage of so many things that make terran strong: the difficulty other races have in scouting them early, the economy boost mules provide, and the overall efficiency of their units. | ||
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VitaLetum
United States27 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:09 zatic wrote: I wish people would at least call it 3/1/1. 1/1/1 is the stupidest name for a Starcraft build yet. maybe call it BFS? Barracks Factory Starport. Sounds more natural then 111 no? BFS... i like it. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:09 zatic wrote: I wish people would at least call it 3/1/1. 1/1/1 is the stupidest name for a Starcraft build yet. How about "Terran Stupid BS" Build?  I forgot who coined 1-1-1 but I know TLO was one of the first to do the 1-1-1 in beta after people stopped trying to got 5 rax marauder off 1 base :p. | ||
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nosocks
United States22 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:09 zatic wrote: I wish people would at least call it 3/1/1. 1/1/1 is the stupidest name for a Starcraft build yet. I thought it was the destiny cloud fist | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:14 Binabik wrote: The problem with stargate is that it's a blind build. If your opponent opens 1Racks FE or 2 Racks you are behind on tech and on economy. From that point you have to go for an all-in You'd think people who knew what they were talking about before they posted o.O 1 gate stargate FE definitely doesn't constitute a follow-up all-in, and it definitely doesn't put him so far ahead economically you can't chip away at the difference with phoenixes. | ||
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Binabik
Germany686 Posts
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On August 22 2011 22:27 Tyrant0 wrote: You'd think people who knew what they were talking about before they posted o.O 1 gate stargate FE definitely doesn't constitute a follow-up all-in, and it definitely doesn't put him so far ahead economically you can't chip away at the difference with phoenixes. More replays less talking | ||
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Thorn Raven
United States126 Posts
Whatever solution is laying out there, it's going to rip this strategy to shreds. That's just the way it goes. Enjoy your free wins for now, Terrans. | ||
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