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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
We're seeing it in almost every BoX series at the highest level.
Even when we don't see it, it influences games, like SangHo going 15nex every game against Select, or Polt tricking people with his 2raxs.
And after the latest WG nerf 4gate really is just a horrible build. If you can't hold it in your sleep after scouting it you're really, really bad.
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If both players execute perfectly Protoss will have to cancel the nexus. You simply don't have enough units.
It is map dependent of course. On something like Shakuras, sure, you can hold it easily with FF. Xel'naga? No, you're cancelling it.
You don't have enough units when it hits a few moments before warp gate finishes. They'll always get free hits at the Nexus.
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On August 22 2011 21:12 DertoQq wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:04 ArhK wrote: What about early hallucinations ? It permits to scan early game way more efficiently than sacrificing overlords for zerg for example, and it would permit to go for 4G or another all in build..?.
1 - Hallucination cost more than an overlord 2 - Hallucination come AFTER your 4-gate, so there is no point scouting if you already choose to 4gate. 3 - 4-gate won't work vs 1-1-1 (or any kind of all-in for that matter)
Ok, thanks for Hallucination's details. Regarding the 4 gate, I am curious why it doesn't work. Until Mid Master it works very well, once you scouted the racks with reactor you are able to go for it and be in the timings.
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On August 22 2011 22:03 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:52 stilez wrote:On August 22 2011 06:17 samd wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but how is this any difference from the Terran version of a 4gate? You protoss used to pull a strong timing build all the time, now you're getting the taste of one and the tears start flowing? Yeah, but you can actually defend a 4 gate easy if you scout it. lol "easy" 4 gate is still a strong build and takes a lot of time to learn how to hold a proper one off. The problem with this thread is all the damn terran haters out there who sit around all day looking for theorycraft to explain why THEY suck balls. 99% of the people in this topic would just as likely lose to 1-1-1 as a 2 rax marine all-in.
I don't thing people care because they lose against it on ladder, they care because pro-players lose against it and they seems not being able to find a solution. I don't think puma would have any problem holding a 4 gate from MC for example ^^
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I think more dangerous than the current supposed imbalance of 1-1-1 is the ongoing perception Terran is the strongest race. The domination of Code S by Terrans is for a big part because all aspiring pro players know to pick Terran, resulting in more really good Terran pros. Why would any really good brood war pro switch and pick protoss?
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On August 22 2011 22:06 ArhK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:12 DertoQq wrote:On August 22 2011 21:04 ArhK wrote: What about early hallucinations ? It permits to scan early game way more efficiently than sacrificing overlords for zerg for example, and it would permit to go for 4G or another all in build..?.
1 - Hallucination cost more than an overlord 2 - Hallucination come AFTER your 4-gate, so there is no point scouting if you already choose to 4gate. 3 - 4-gate won't work vs 1-1-1 (or any kind of all-in for that matter) Ok, thanks for Hallucination's details. Regarding the 4 gate, I am curious why it doesn't work. Until Mid Master it works very well, once you scouted the racks with reactor you are able to go for it and be in the timings. Zealot/stalker 4gate just dies to repair basically. Marines have such great DPS and stalkers, um, don't, so even with fairly low numbers as long as they pull their SCVs they'll be fine.
Sentry based 4gate is better but it's later so they'll have lots of marines. Terran should be able to survive until their tank comes out and then you can't do anything cause even an unsieged tank brutalises stalkers.
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On August 22 2011 06:17 samd wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but how is this any difference from the Terran version of a 4gate? You protoss used to pull a strong timing build all the time, now you're getting the taste of one and the tears start flowing?
On August 22 2011 22:03 aksfjh wrote: lol "easy"
4 gate is still a strong build and takes a lot of time to learn how to hold a proper one off. The problem with this thread is all the damn terran haters out there who sit around all day looking for theorycraft to explain why THEY suck balls. 99% of the people in this topic would just as likely lose to 1-1-1 as a 2 rax marine all-in.
This is a relatively new build and hasn't completely taken over the metagame yet. When you start to see this, or a variation of it, in nearly every PvT, then you can start talking about how it's "ridiculously OP."
This has nothing to do with "Terrans getting their revenge from 4 gate days and Protoss crying" it has to do with the game being balanced.
The 4 gate was overpowered, and it got nerfed. The 1-1-1 is incredibly difficult to stop. I can stop 2 or 3 rax all day with a 3 gate expand. It isn't difficult since the stim timing nerf and the increase in bunker build time. The 1-1-1 is an entirely different beast, that requires much more scouting, much better unit control, and better timings.
Comparing a 2 rax to the 1-1-1 is like comparing a proxy 2 gate to a 4 gate.
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Zurich15329 Posts
I wish people would at least call it 3/1/1. 1/1/1 is the stupidest name for a Starcraft build yet.
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On August 22 2011 22:03 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 21:52 stilez wrote:On August 22 2011 06:17 samd wrote: Excuse my ignorance, but how is this any difference from the Terran version of a 4gate? You protoss used to pull a strong timing build all the time, now you're getting the taste of one and the tears start flowing? Yeah, but you can actually defend a 4 gate easy if you scout it. lol "easy" 4 gate is still a strong build and takes a lot of time to learn how to hold a proper one off. The problem with this thread is all the damn terran haters out there who sit around all day looking for theorycraft to explain why THEY suck balls. 99% of the people in this topic would just as likely lose to 1-1-1 as a 2 rax marine all-in. This is a relatively new build and hasn't completely taken over the metagame yet. When you start to see this, or a variation of it, in nearly every PvT, then you can start talking about how it's "ridiculously OP." I'm not sure what's so hard about box selecting some SCVs and right clicking on your bunker, but.....is there something about Terran players that makes this take a lot of time to learn how to do?
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On August 22 2011 22:09 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 22:06 ArhK wrote:On August 22 2011 21:12 DertoQq wrote:On August 22 2011 21:04 ArhK wrote: What about early hallucinations ? It permits to scan early game way more efficiently than sacrificing overlords for zerg for example, and it would permit to go for 4G or another all in build..?.
1 - Hallucination cost more than an overlord 2 - Hallucination come AFTER your 4-gate, so there is no point scouting if you already choose to 4gate. 3 - 4-gate won't work vs 1-1-1 (or any kind of all-in for that matter) Ok, thanks for Hallucination's details. Regarding the 4 gate, I am curious why it doesn't work. Until Mid Master it works very well, once you scouted the racks with reactor you are able to go for it and be in the timings. Zealot/stalker 4gate just dies to repair basically. Marines have such great DPS and stalkers, um, don't, so even with fairly low numbers as long as they pull their SCVs they'll be fine. Sentry based 4gate is better but it's later so they'll have lots of marines. Terran should be able to survive until their tank comes out and then you can't do anything cause even an unsieged tank brutalises stalkers.
A 4-gate works to punish a terran who is expanding too fast. If the terran is on his way to do an all-in he will have more than enough to beat it. And once he has beenshes or tanks, it's even worse.
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As a protoss I do not find 1/1/1 op. If terran goes 1 base all in, I go 1 base with a stargate and it works fine.
p.s.: If terran gets a cloaked banshee, I suggest a mothership for the cloaking field to protect the probes!!!
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On August 22 2011 22:12 Mozicelj wrote:As a protoss I do not find 1/1/1 op. If terran goes 1 base all in, I go 1 base with a stargate and it works fine. p.s.: If terran gets a cloaked banshee, I suggest a mothership for the cloaking field to protect the probes!!!  The problem with stargate is that it's a blind build. If your opponent opens 1Racks FE or 2 Racks you are behind on tech and on economy. From that point you have to go for an all-in
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On August 22 2011 22:07 Grumbels wrote: I think more dangerous than the current supposed imbalance of 1-1-1 is the ongoing perception Terran is the strongest race. The domination of Code S by Terrans is for a big part because all aspiring pro players know to pick Terran, resulting in more really good Terran pros. Why would any really good brood war pro switch and pick protoss? Correction: the domination of Code S and Code A by terrans, as well as their domination on the korean server. Also 1-1-1 is dangerous because it takes advantage of so many things that make terran strong: the difficulty other races have in scouting them early, the economy boost mules provide, and the overall efficiency of their units.
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On August 22 2011 22:09 zatic wrote: I wish people would at least call it 3/1/1. 1/1/1 is the stupidest name for a Starcraft build yet.
maybe call it BFS? Barracks Factory Starport. Sounds more natural then 111 no? BFS... i like it.
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On August 22 2011 22:09 zatic wrote: I wish people would at least call it 3/1/1. 1/1/1 is the stupidest name for a Starcraft build yet.
How about "Terran Stupid BS" Build? 
I forgot who coined 1-1-1 but I know TLO was one of the first to do the 1-1-1 in beta after people stopped trying to got 5 rax marauder off 1 base :p.
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On August 22 2011 22:09 zatic wrote: I wish people would at least call it 3/1/1. 1/1/1 is the stupidest name for a Starcraft build yet.
I thought it was the destiny cloud fist
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On August 22 2011 22:14 Binabik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 22:12 Mozicelj wrote:As a protoss I do not find 1/1/1 op. If terran goes 1 base all in, I go 1 base with a stargate and it works fine. p.s.: If terran gets a cloaked banshee, I suggest a mothership for the cloaking field to protect the probes!!!  The problem with stargate is that it's a blind build. If your opponent opens 1Racks FE or 2 Racks you are behind on tech and on economy. From that point you have to go for an all-in
You'd think people who knew what they were talking about before they posted o.O 1 gate stargate FE definitely doesn't constitute a follow-up all-in, and it definitely doesn't put him so far ahead economically you can't chip away at the difference with phoenixes.
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1Gate Stargate Expand loses against Stim Timings, that's why nobody uses it
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On August 22 2011 22:27 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 22:14 Binabik wrote:On August 22 2011 22:12 Mozicelj wrote:As a protoss I do not find 1/1/1 op. If terran goes 1 base all in, I go 1 base with a stargate and it works fine. p.s.: If terran gets a cloaked banshee, I suggest a mothership for the cloaking field to protect the probes!!!  The problem with stargate is that it's a blind build. If your opponent opens 1Racks FE or 2 Racks you are behind on tech and on economy. From that point you have to go for an all-in You'd think people who knew what they were talking about before they posted o.O 1 gate stargate FE definitely doesn't constitute a follow-up all-in, and it definitely doesn't put him so far ahead economically you can't chip away at the difference with phoenixes. More replays less talking
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This reminds me of BW. One race would always have another race's number with a bold and abusive strat. Until the other race could figure out the solution, they posted terrible tournament results.
Whatever solution is laying out there, it's going to rip this strategy to shreds. That's just the way it goes. Enjoy your free wins for now, Terrans.
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