even as a fellow noob it's frustrating to see people suggesting expanding later. to me, it just seems expanding very early the expansion actually pays for itself.....whereas if you tech a bit then expo all that would happen is the 1-1-1 destroys your natural before it's paid for itself?
On August 22 2011 10:30 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: It's funny how Tyler comes here, shares his thoughts on this ,and everyone ignores him and continues with their pointless speculating. It's funny that 3/4 of the ppl posting here aren't even master league.
I am a huge fan of Tyler, I have a ton of respect for the way he approaches the game, I'm hoping for a "Nony" bounceback as much as the next person - while I'm thrilled to see him participating in threads, I unfortunately don't see how his post/thoughts (this time) really helps with 1/1/1.
Basically he emphasizes the need to be safer (getting the information before expanding), but the thing is, this all-in doesn't punish protoss players who are being 'greedy' with the FE's as it hits way after the expo has more than paid for itself already. Which means if you stay on 1 base, you have just less resources to deal with the same attack, how does this really help?
And as for the point of us not being good enough to qualify to argue against his opinion, its up to HIM to prove that his builds are feasible against high level Korean terrans, not the other way around. We already have proof that the sickest protoss players in the world have major trouble dealing with it, but there's no real evidence what Tyler is saying correct is there? Think about this, Alicia practices 10 hours a day in a clan with sh!tloads of good terrans in Slayers, you really think one of the best PvT'ers hasn't tried playing it 'safe' with a one base build against 1/1/1? I seriously doubt this.
On August 22 2011 09:54 Amui wrote: spoilered due to length + Show Spoiler +
On August 22 2011 09:36 Astro-Penguin wrote: This is how I am currently dealing with 1-1-1.
Standard opening, If i scout that he does not wall off I will sent a chrono boosted zealot and probe into his main and get a free scout basically, from there I react accordingly If i scout that he has walled off I will skip the zealot and chronoboost stalker and pressure a bit, if I cannot scout an guranteed expansion, 2 Rax, 1 Rax FE, gasless expand, and etc I will add a robo for a quck observer (Quicker Robo then most builds) otherwise i will do 1 Gate FE.
Now, if I know for certain that it is going to be some sort of 1-1-1 All in or even some sort of Marine/Siege Tank, Banshees, and etc without marauders I react by adding a Twilight Council, 2 Gateways, Followed by a Robo and research Blink, from there I pressure with blink stalkers in his main using my observer for vision, if you can snipe a few of his tech labs and get out then you will have bought yourself tons of time. In the case that I had to add a Robo because I was uncertain of what I saw i will most likely go 1 Base Colossi if I scout 1-1-1 with my observer and even Blink stalkers if I can get a good timing in and still be able to do adequate harassment to make him afraid of moving out.
With the blink play you can drastically slow down his push and pump some Immortals off 1 base to deal with the tanks, its important to note as he moves out on the map that you are picking off little chunks of his army as you will. Some maps are obvisouly more optimal for this type of play and generally I feel it is best on bigger maps like Tal Darim. The only thing you have to watch out for is PDD, make him try and waste PDD before you ever engage or if you can snipe his raven as he moves out try and do so. Depending on how much damage you do during this small opportunity of harassment within his main you can decide whether or not its safe to expo. Mix in a few sentries for forcefields/Guardian Shield for the big engagement later on.
The 1 base colossi response is pretty self explanitory Imo, if you can engae him a good arc before he reaches your ramp then absolutely do so, its important to try and not let him get bunkers in your natural to set up a contain if you can do so. Generally if you played it out right you should come out ahead and be able to bully the terran a bit afterwards and take your natural.
Alot of people will say that you will be to far behind if he ends up not doing some sort of all in and is simply expanding, although you'll be behind economically you'll still have a tech advantage, unit advantage with 1 Gate Robo and a fairly slower Nexus, When scouting with an observer if you can find his weakness in his build and expose said weakness with your tech edge then do so.(Forcefield contain, Warp Prism harass, Simple frontal attack pressure to force bunkers, and etc.)
I really think the only time these quick expand builds should be used is when you can scout the terrans main with a zealot or some sort of agression and be certain of no 3 Rax, 1-1-1, and etc. Blindly doing 1 Gate FE and hoping you can hold an all in is really silly, if your going to fast expand against all ins you might as well Nexus first as you will have a better chance. 1 Gate Robo is a really good build and people should use it more imo, you can expand with it early and cancel the Nexus if you scout something your unsure of being able to hold.
At the end of the day people need to realize that expanding against 1-1-1 is dumb, some situations yield expands to be optimal against it but most of the time its not a good idea. People have to remember that the terran is blindly going 1-1-1 and not reacting to what you do, with 1 Base you can just react to his unit composition and counter it and come out ahead with a unit advantage, sure he has mules but if you play everything out right you should be able to come out on top in the engagement and later use your unit composition/number to take an expansion and deny him his own.
Basically if you want a guranteed defence against this build you have to accept that the game will transition most of the time and that you will not always be drastically ahead in said transition
Play safe and stop crying when you blindly expand and lose to a build designed to punish this, there is no reason to try and fast expand if your unsure of what hes doing. This style is used by alot of good Protoss users such as Tyler, Sage, Artosis (Hehe), Genius (Depending on the day x.x), Puzzle, and etc.
Here's the thing. Expanding gives you a shot at holding the push, even though in most cases you have to sacrifice the nexus, you are still in a good situation. If you continue to one base while terran is one basing 1. He has map control via banshees. He'll know if you put down a nexus, proceed to push and roll you. 2. You both mine out main. He lifts to nat, you long distance mine for a nexus, he pushes in 2 minutes and you die anyways. 3. Yes you can play like Tyler does every game and go gaterobogate nexus. Then when your observer gets to their base and you see it was a reactored-marine into expo, the other guy has had his base up for 2 minutes longer than you. Yes you have good scouting info, but you are also playing from behind and need to outplay the opponent to win. Extremely good build if you feel your opponent is inferior, but this isn't the case. 4. Terran is playing safe simply by building a bunker. They can hold EVERY protoss all-in off a 1/1/1, This build gives them an advantage such that even if they don't allin a one-basing protoss, they have 2 techlabs, a reactor, and all 3 production buildings and can transition to everything after throwing down a CC. The equivalent protoss would be having a robo, and either a TC or stargate such that WHILE being 100% safe from any allin, maintaining the ability to punish every expo attempt after obs gets out AND being able to transition into a macro game at even or better.
1. Well your either pressuring or scouting with an observer, if you cant expand then cancel it or just simply dont expand, only time you should expand is if your certain he wont roll you.
2. If he lifts to his natraul your army should come out ahead in the prior engagement and he shouldnt be able to sufficently hold anything, and tbh you shoulden't run out of minerals that quick assuming everyones timing is going well.
3. Again, if you scout something like that you have to examine the weaknesses within what hes doing and expose it the best you can, at this point if he scout a reactor marine build you can just do a 3 Gate Stalker/Sentry push and there is really nothing he will be able to do, he will be forced to retreat to his main while you expand. (Specific situation).
4. People seem to always over estimate bunkers, and honestly if your forcing bunkers then your doing something right. Honestly Terran is definently to flexible in comparision to Protoss but thats a whole different issue imo and blizzard has acknowledged this, the main problem I see is that protoss are unwilling to play without a guranteed win if holding the terrans attack and because of this they are just taking risks instead of being 100% sure they will not die to any sort of push.
To me it seems people are just upset that terran can transition out of an all in and protoss cant, its a design flaw I agree there but its not the reason why Protoss are losing to 1-1-1 or various other all ins.
1. Protoss HAS to throw down a nexus before the main is mined out, and pressuring against sieged tanks is a great idea, but I'll let you try first. The problem is he can roll you the moment you expand in 99% of cases with the 1/1/1 simply because the units are more cost efficient.
2. You can't break the expo if it has 4 sieged tanks. Also the way terran works is that they pay for units and later they come out. Their still making shit even when the CC is lifted. Their army isn't any weaker while the CC is lifted, and if they set up all the tanks, it's not EVER a good idea to try and attack a defensive sieged position without a HUGE advantage. Also what prior engagement? Who said terran must attack with this build? This is what happens when both players continue to one-base. both players mine out, Terran lifts, Protoss has to build a nexus, and Protoss gets the worse end of the stick. That's just an undeniable fact.
3. 3gate stalker/sentry doesn't come off a gaterobogate. It's a pressure based build for scouting. 4. The build incorporates one bunker simply out of necessity, and a bunker full of marines doesn't tell you much at all apart from the fact that it's probably a tech build.
1. Man only expand when you know its safe, defend the push then attack then expand, there is no way he can deny the expand if your attacking. The whole point of 1 base to counter this is that your unit composition is designed to beat his.
2. With colossi you sure as hell can, if he dosen't attack you can just attack and expand yoruself and hes not going to be able to deal with any sort of colossi composition with that many marines. In terms of blink stalkers if he expands instead of attacking then he cant defend 2 locations at once, expand get a warp prism with immortals and harass with blink stalker/immortal and you'll be amazed at how much damage you can do,
3. You can still produce enough stalker/sentrys to do enough damage and even add on an immortal to target down the bunker, and with Robo you can even go for a very fast Colossi timing off 1 base or even 2, since he has mainly marines at that point all you have to do is harass his marines with stalkers if he tries to move out and from there you can safely tech up.
4. If hes walled off with a bunker then theres no getting into his main, but it tells you hes teching or doing a gasless expand, either way with 1 Gate Robo you can punish both builds.
You're teaching us how to counter mass Marines. You forgot ravens with PDD, seige tanks, banshees and medivacs exist.
You want to attack him with colossus? Any idea how fast a colossus dies to a banshee? Try to even position any blink stalkers nearby, they will get chewed up by tanks and PDD.
Colossi/Gateway is fine against this composition.... you can pretty much bully his mobility and constantly poke with ETL Colossi.
On August 22 2011 10:09 drgonzhere wrote: I just don't think you can dispute the fact that the only reason this build works, is because protoss players have gotten so greedy they think they can blindly 1 gate fe. 1 gate robo is by far the safest way to play vs Terran regardless of openings. People treat information like its not a resource, when in reality its more important than minerals or gas. Its a difficult build to counter because you have to HARD COUNTER it, you can't try to counter it while still trying to cut corners.
It seems all too obvious to me that you NEED to have colossi out to deal with it. That you NEED to have a lot of zealots. That you NEED to meet it in the middle of the map. And Hell it will still be hard.
I haven't seen a game yet where all of these criteria have been met, so until then I am not willing to call this build "imbalanced".
Actually you can dispute it and that's what this whole thread is, so presumably you completely skippped the op. 1 gate FE is the best chance. Stop with the protoss greedy crap. It doesn't apply here.
Alright I'll trust a top American protoss player who has been playing Starcraft 1&2 at a higher level than you ever will for ten years of his life than over you who is taking information from an OP on faith when it gives no reasons at all. Perhaps 1 Gate FE is fine if you get hallucination. Stop with the protoss whiny crap. It doesn't belong on TL.
Sorry I will trust the korean pros like IMMVP and team houses over a foreign player who has admittedly not been practicing much as of late. No disrespect to Tyler, but does he honestly think the solutions he is proposing haven't already been investigated among these korean teams, and at a greater level of refinement than he is currently capable of? Do you really want to see 23 terrans in Code S and 3 protoss before you are willing to admit there may be an issue?
lol! have we gotten any word from MC, does he think 1/1/1 is overpowered? there is yet any evidence that the 1/1/1s we have seen are undefendable or uncounterable, far from it.
On August 22 2011 09:54 Amui wrote: spoilered due to length + Show Spoiler +
On August 22 2011 09:36 Astro-Penguin wrote: This is how I am currently dealing with 1-1-1.
Standard opening, If i scout that he does not wall off I will sent a chrono boosted zealot and probe into his main and get a free scout basically, from there I react accordingly If i scout that he has walled off I will skip the zealot and chronoboost stalker and pressure a bit, if I cannot scout an guranteed expansion, 2 Rax, 1 Rax FE, gasless expand, and etc I will add a robo for a quck observer (Quicker Robo then most builds) otherwise i will do 1 Gate FE.
Now, if I know for certain that it is going to be some sort of 1-1-1 All in or even some sort of Marine/Siege Tank, Banshees, and etc without marauders I react by adding a Twilight Council, 2 Gateways, Followed by a Robo and research Blink, from there I pressure with blink stalkers in his main using my observer for vision, if you can snipe a few of his tech labs and get out then you will have bought yourself tons of time. In the case that I had to add a Robo because I was uncertain of what I saw i will most likely go 1 Base Colossi if I scout 1-1-1 with my observer and even Blink stalkers if I can get a good timing in and still be able to do adequate harassment to make him afraid of moving out.
With the blink play you can drastically slow down his push and pump some Immortals off 1 base to deal with the tanks, its important to note as he moves out on the map that you are picking off little chunks of his army as you will. Some maps are obvisouly more optimal for this type of play and generally I feel it is best on bigger maps like Tal Darim. The only thing you have to watch out for is PDD, make him try and waste PDD before you ever engage or if you can snipe his raven as he moves out try and do so. Depending on how much damage you do during this small opportunity of harassment within his main you can decide whether or not its safe to expo. Mix in a few sentries for forcefields/Guardian Shield for the big engagement later on.
The 1 base colossi response is pretty self explanitory Imo, if you can engae him a good arc before he reaches your ramp then absolutely do so, its important to try and not let him get bunkers in your natural to set up a contain if you can do so. Generally if you played it out right you should come out ahead and be able to bully the terran a bit afterwards and take your natural.
Alot of people will say that you will be to far behind if he ends up not doing some sort of all in and is simply expanding, although you'll be behind economically you'll still have a tech advantage, unit advantage with 1 Gate Robo and a fairly slower Nexus, When scouting with an observer if you can find his weakness in his build and expose said weakness with your tech edge then do so.(Forcefield contain, Warp Prism harass, Simple frontal attack pressure to force bunkers, and etc.)
I really think the only time these quick expand builds should be used is when you can scout the terrans main with a zealot or some sort of agression and be certain of no 3 Rax, 1-1-1, and etc. Blindly doing 1 Gate FE and hoping you can hold an all in is really silly, if your going to fast expand against all ins you might as well Nexus first as you will have a better chance. 1 Gate Robo is a really good build and people should use it more imo, you can expand with it early and cancel the Nexus if you scout something your unsure of being able to hold.
At the end of the day people need to realize that expanding against 1-1-1 is dumb, some situations yield expands to be optimal against it but most of the time its not a good idea. People have to remember that the terran is blindly going 1-1-1 and not reacting to what you do, with 1 Base you can just react to his unit composition and counter it and come out ahead with a unit advantage, sure he has mules but if you play everything out right you should be able to come out on top in the engagement and later use your unit composition/number to take an expansion and deny him his own.
Basically if you want a guranteed defence against this build you have to accept that the game will transition most of the time and that you will not always be drastically ahead in said transition
Play safe and stop crying when you blindly expand and lose to a build designed to punish this, there is no reason to try and fast expand if your unsure of what hes doing. This style is used by alot of good Protoss users such as Tyler, Sage, Artosis (Hehe), Genius (Depending on the day x.x), Puzzle, and etc.
Here's the thing. Expanding gives you a shot at holding the push, even though in most cases you have to sacrifice the nexus, you are still in a good situation. If you continue to one base while terran is one basing 1. He has map control via banshees. He'll know if you put down a nexus, proceed to push and roll you. 2. You both mine out main. He lifts to nat, you long distance mine for a nexus, he pushes in 2 minutes and you die anyways. 3. Yes you can play like Tyler does every game and go gaterobogate nexus. Then when your observer gets to their base and you see it was a reactored-marine into expo, the other guy has had his base up for 2 minutes longer than you. Yes you have good scouting info, but you are also playing from behind and need to outplay the opponent to win. Extremely good build if you feel your opponent is inferior, but this isn't the case. 4. Terran is playing safe simply by building a bunker. They can hold EVERY protoss all-in off a 1/1/1, This build gives them an advantage such that even if they don't allin a one-basing protoss, they have 2 techlabs, a reactor, and all 3 production buildings and can transition to everything after throwing down a CC. The equivalent protoss would be having a robo, and either a TC or stargate such that WHILE being 100% safe from any allin, maintaining the ability to punish every expo attempt after obs gets out AND being able to transition into a macro game at even or better.
1. Well your either pressuring or scouting with an observer, if you cant expand then cancel it or just simply dont expand, only time you should expand is if your certain he wont roll you.
2. If he lifts to his natraul your army should come out ahead in the prior engagement and he shouldnt be able to sufficently hold anything, and tbh you shoulden't run out of minerals that quick assuming everyones timing is going well.
3. Again, if you scout something like that you have to examine the weaknesses within what hes doing and expose it the best you can, at this point if he scout a reactor marine build you can just do a 3 Gate Stalker/Sentry push and there is really nothing he will be able to do, he will be forced to retreat to his main while you expand. (Specific situation).
4. People seem to always over estimate bunkers, and honestly if your forcing bunkers then your doing something right. Honestly Terran is definently to flexible in comparision to Protoss but thats a whole different issue imo and blizzard has acknowledged this, the main problem I see is that protoss are unwilling to play without a guranteed win if holding the terrans attack and because of this they are just taking risks instead of being 100% sure they will not die to any sort of push.
To me it seems people are just upset that terran can transition out of an all in and protoss cant, its a design flaw I agree there but its not the reason why Protoss are losing to 1-1-1 or various other all ins.
1. Protoss HAS to throw down a nexus before the main is mined out, and pressuring against sieged tanks is a great idea, but I'll let you try first. The problem is he can roll you the moment you expand in 99% of cases with the 1/1/1 simply because the units are more cost efficient.
2. You can't break the expo if it has 4 sieged tanks. Also the way terran works is that they pay for units and later they come out. Their still making shit even when the CC is lifted. Their army isn't any weaker while the CC is lifted, and if they set up all the tanks, it's not EVER a good idea to try and attack a defensive sieged position without a HUGE advantage. Also what prior engagement? Who said terran must attack with this build? This is what happens when both players continue to one-base. both players mine out, Terran lifts, Protoss has to build a nexus, and Protoss gets the worse end of the stick. That's just an undeniable fact.
3. 3gate stalker/sentry doesn't come off a gaterobogate. It's a pressure based build for scouting. 4. The build incorporates one bunker simply out of necessity, and a bunker full of marines doesn't tell you much at all apart from the fact that it's probably a tech build.
1. Man only expand when you know its safe, defend the push then attack then expand, there is no way he can deny the expand if your attacking. The whole point of 1 base to counter this is that your unit composition is designed to beat his.
2. With colossi you sure as hell can, if he dosen't attack you can just attack and expand yoruself and hes not going to be able to deal with any sort of colossi composition with that many marines. In terms of blink stalkers if he expands instead of attacking then he cant defend 2 locations at once, expand get a warp prism with immortals and harass with blink stalker/immortal and you'll be amazed at how much damage you can do,
3. You can still produce enough stalker/sentrys to do enough damage and even add on an immortal to target down the bunker, and with Robo you can even go for a very fast Colossi timing off 1 base or even 2, since he has mainly marines at that point all you have to do is harass his marines with stalkers if he tries to move out and from there you can safely tech up.
4. If hes walled off with a bunker then theres no getting into his main, but it tells you hes teching or doing a gasless expand, either way with 1 Gate Robo you can punish both builds.
1. You apparently don't understand. His one base beats yours. It's that simple. The ONLY safe time to expand against this is 5:30 or earlier. Go read the OP for more info.
2. He can switch over to reactored vikings in under 10 seconds, and begin marauder production at the same time. He can handle colossus transitions off of one base with absolute ease.
3. Yeah you can do that. He'll hold and you'll be even more screwed. This build is safe against 4gates and voidray busts. What makes you think attacking up a ramp with stalker sentry immortal will do any better?
4. You can scout gasless. That doesn't scare me. Scouting gas and then a bunker with marines 2 minutes later does because then I have no clue what's going on with just a poke. 1gate robo gets you behind economically against a 1rax FE with quick inbase CC and it's also not the best build against a 1/1/1 allin. Read the OP again if you don't understand, because it has to do with economics.
It's not a problem with greedy builds, it's that playing greedy is the best way to stop this.
Alicia has been tweeting about 1-1-1 imbalance. He lives with a team full of TOP terrans like ganzi and MMA. Im sure they have tested numerous builds to try and counter 1-1-1, yet alicia still tweets about 1-1-1 imbalance. Meaning, a top korean protoss who players 9+ hours a day doesn't have a solution.
On August 22 2011 09:54 Amui wrote: spoilered due to length + Show Spoiler +
On August 22 2011 09:36 Astro-Penguin wrote: This is how I am currently dealing with 1-1-1.
Standard opening, If i scout that he does not wall off I will sent a chrono boosted zealot and probe into his main and get a free scout basically, from there I react accordingly If i scout that he has walled off I will skip the zealot and chronoboost stalker and pressure a bit, if I cannot scout an guranteed expansion, 2 Rax, 1 Rax FE, gasless expand, and etc I will add a robo for a quck observer (Quicker Robo then most builds) otherwise i will do 1 Gate FE.
Now, if I know for certain that it is going to be some sort of 1-1-1 All in or even some sort of Marine/Siege Tank, Banshees, and etc without marauders I react by adding a Twilight Council, 2 Gateways, Followed by a Robo and research Blink, from there I pressure with blink stalkers in his main using my observer for vision, if you can snipe a few of his tech labs and get out then you will have bought yourself tons of time. In the case that I had to add a Robo because I was uncertain of what I saw i will most likely go 1 Base Colossi if I scout 1-1-1 with my observer and even Blink stalkers if I can get a good timing in and still be able to do adequate harassment to make him afraid of moving out.
With the blink play you can drastically slow down his push and pump some Immortals off 1 base to deal with the tanks, its important to note as he moves out on the map that you are picking off little chunks of his army as you will. Some maps are obvisouly more optimal for this type of play and generally I feel it is best on bigger maps like Tal Darim. The only thing you have to watch out for is PDD, make him try and waste PDD before you ever engage or if you can snipe his raven as he moves out try and do so. Depending on how much damage you do during this small opportunity of harassment within his main you can decide whether or not its safe to expo. Mix in a few sentries for forcefields/Guardian Shield for the big engagement later on.
The 1 base colossi response is pretty self explanitory Imo, if you can engae him a good arc before he reaches your ramp then absolutely do so, its important to try and not let him get bunkers in your natural to set up a contain if you can do so. Generally if you played it out right you should come out ahead and be able to bully the terran a bit afterwards and take your natural.
Alot of people will say that you will be to far behind if he ends up not doing some sort of all in and is simply expanding, although you'll be behind economically you'll still have a tech advantage, unit advantage with 1 Gate Robo and a fairly slower Nexus, When scouting with an observer if you can find his weakness in his build and expose said weakness with your tech edge then do so.(Forcefield contain, Warp Prism harass, Simple frontal attack pressure to force bunkers, and etc.)
I really think the only time these quick expand builds should be used is when you can scout the terrans main with a zealot or some sort of agression and be certain of no 3 Rax, 1-1-1, and etc. Blindly doing 1 Gate FE and hoping you can hold an all in is really silly, if your going to fast expand against all ins you might as well Nexus first as you will have a better chance. 1 Gate Robo is a really good build and people should use it more imo, you can expand with it early and cancel the Nexus if you scout something your unsure of being able to hold.
At the end of the day people need to realize that expanding against 1-1-1 is dumb, some situations yield expands to be optimal against it but most of the time its not a good idea. People have to remember that the terran is blindly going 1-1-1 and not reacting to what you do, with 1 Base you can just react to his unit composition and counter it and come out ahead with a unit advantage, sure he has mules but if you play everything out right you should be able to come out on top in the engagement and later use your unit composition/number to take an expansion and deny him his own.
Basically if you want a guranteed defence against this build you have to accept that the game will transition most of the time and that you will not always be drastically ahead in said transition
Play safe and stop crying when you blindly expand and lose to a build designed to punish this, there is no reason to try and fast expand if your unsure of what hes doing. This style is used by alot of good Protoss users such as Tyler, Sage, Artosis (Hehe), Genius (Depending on the day x.x), Puzzle, and etc.
Here's the thing. Expanding gives you a shot at holding the push, even though in most cases you have to sacrifice the nexus, you are still in a good situation. If you continue to one base while terran is one basing 1. He has map control via banshees. He'll know if you put down a nexus, proceed to push and roll you. 2. You both mine out main. He lifts to nat, you long distance mine for a nexus, he pushes in 2 minutes and you die anyways. 3. Yes you can play like Tyler does every game and go gaterobogate nexus. Then when your observer gets to their base and you see it was a reactored-marine into expo, the other guy has had his base up for 2 minutes longer than you. Yes you have good scouting info, but you are also playing from behind and need to outplay the opponent to win. Extremely good build if you feel your opponent is inferior, but this isn't the case. 4. Terran is playing safe simply by building a bunker. They can hold EVERY protoss all-in off a 1/1/1, This build gives them an advantage such that even if they don't allin a one-basing protoss, they have 2 techlabs, a reactor, and all 3 production buildings and can transition to everything after throwing down a CC. The equivalent protoss would be having a robo, and either a TC or stargate such that WHILE being 100% safe from any allin, maintaining the ability to punish every expo attempt after obs gets out AND being able to transition into a macro game at even or better.
1. Well your either pressuring or scouting with an observer, if you cant expand then cancel it or just simply dont expand, only time you should expand is if your certain he wont roll you.
2. If he lifts to his natraul your army should come out ahead in the prior engagement and he shouldnt be able to sufficently hold anything, and tbh you shoulden't run out of minerals that quick assuming everyones timing is going well.
3. Again, if you scout something like that you have to examine the weaknesses within what hes doing and expose it the best you can, at this point if he scout a reactor marine build you can just do a 3 Gate Stalker/Sentry push and there is really nothing he will be able to do, he will be forced to retreat to his main while you expand. (Specific situation).
4. People seem to always over estimate bunkers, and honestly if your forcing bunkers then your doing something right. Honestly Terran is definently to flexible in comparision to Protoss but thats a whole different issue imo and blizzard has acknowledged this, the main problem I see is that protoss are unwilling to play without a guranteed win if holding the terrans attack and because of this they are just taking risks instead of being 100% sure they will not die to any sort of push.
To me it seems people are just upset that terran can transition out of an all in and protoss cant, its a design flaw I agree there but its not the reason why Protoss are losing to 1-1-1 or various other all ins.
1. Protoss HAS to throw down a nexus before the main is mined out, and pressuring against sieged tanks is a great idea, but I'll let you try first. The problem is he can roll you the moment you expand in 99% of cases with the 1/1/1 simply because the units are more cost efficient.
2. You can't break the expo if it has 4 sieged tanks. Also the way terran works is that they pay for units and later they come out. Their still making shit even when the CC is lifted. Their army isn't any weaker while the CC is lifted, and if they set up all the tanks, it's not EVER a good idea to try and attack a defensive sieged position without a HUGE advantage. Also what prior engagement? Who said terran must attack with this build? This is what happens when both players continue to one-base. both players mine out, Terran lifts, Protoss has to build a nexus, and Protoss gets the worse end of the stick. That's just an undeniable fact.
3. 3gate stalker/sentry doesn't come off a gaterobogate. It's a pressure based build for scouting. 4. The build incorporates one bunker simply out of necessity, and a bunker full of marines doesn't tell you much at all apart from the fact that it's probably a tech build.
1. Man only expand when you know its safe, defend the push then attack then expand, there is no way he can deny the expand if your attacking. The whole point of 1 base to counter this is that your unit composition is designed to beat his.
2. With colossi you sure as hell can, if he dosen't attack you can just attack and expand yoruself and hes not going to be able to deal with any sort of colossi composition with that many marines. In terms of blink stalkers if he expands instead of attacking then he cant defend 2 locations at once, expand get a warp prism with immortals and harass with blink stalker/immortal and you'll be amazed at how much damage you can do,
3. You can still produce enough stalker/sentrys to do enough damage and even add on an immortal to target down the bunker, and with Robo you can even go for a very fast Colossi timing off 1 base or even 2, since he has mainly marines at that point all you have to do is harass his marines with stalkers if he tries to move out and from there you can safely tech up.
4. If hes walled off with a bunker then theres no getting into his main, but it tells you hes teching or doing a gasless expand, either way with 1 Gate Robo you can punish both builds.
You're teaching us how to counter mass Marines. You forgot ravens with PDD, seige tanks, banshees and medivacs exist.
You want to attack him with colossus? Any idea how fast a colossus dies to a banshee? Try to even position any blink stalkers nearby, they will get chewed up by tanks and PDD.
Colossi/Gateway is fine against this composition.... you can pretty much bully his mobility and constantly poke with ETL Colossi.
yes you are correct about the unit composition but the problem is: how are you going to get a sufficient gateway unit count and ETL colossi (off either 1 or 2 base) before he pushes to your natural?
On August 22 2011 11:19 koolaid1990 wrote: Alicia has been tweeting about 1-1-1 imbalance. He lives with a team full of TOP terrans like ganzi and MMA. Im sure they have tested numerous builds to try and counter 1-1-1, yet alicia still tweets about 1-1-1 imbalance. Meaning, a top korean protoss who players 9+ hours a day doesn't have a solution.
didnt alicia tweet something like mc was the latest sacrafice to the 111 build when he lost to puma? ahaha that guy has got a good sense of humor in such bleak times
On August 22 2011 10:30 Blizzard_torments_me wrote: It's funny how Tyler comes here, shares his thoughts on this ,and everyone ignores him and continues with their pointless speculating. It's funny that 3/4 of the ppl posting here aren't even master league.
I am a huge fan of Tyler, I have a ton of respect for the way he approaches the game, I'm hoping for a "Nony" bounceback as much as the next person - while I'm thrilled to see him participating in threads, I unfortunately don't see how his post/thoughts (this time) really helps with 1/1/1.
Basically he emphasizes the need to be safer (getting the information before expanding), but the thing is, this all-in doesn't punish protoss players who are being 'greedy' with the FE's as it hits way after the expo has more than paid for itself already. Which means if you stay on 1 base, you have just less resources to deal with the same attack, how does this really help?
And as for the point of us not being good enough to qualify to argue against his opinion, its up to HIM to prove that his builds are feasible against high level Korean terrans, not the other way around. We already have proof that the sickest protoss players in the world have major trouble dealing with it, but there's no real evidence what Tyler is saying correct is there? Think about this, Alicia practices 10 hours a day in a clan with sh!tloads of good terrans in Slayers, you really think one of the best PvT'ers hasn't tried playing it 'safe' with a one base build against 1/1/1? I seriously doubt this.
IMMVP, one of, if not the best Korean terran thinks that it is imbalanced. I love Tyler as much as the next guy but I'm going to have to go with the Korean winning tournaments and practicing ungodly hours over Tyler theorycrafting about playing safer. I really wonder sometimes what people think the Korean protoss such as Alicia, Puzzle and MC are practicing against for the PvT matchup. I would imagine most of their time is spent trying to figure this build out against top level T practice partners and I have to believe that if we see another tournament where the 1-1-1 performs just as well as it has been, a nerf will be incoming.
On August 22 2011 10:40 Jamesbigpig wrote: How I feel as a Terran reading this thread,
On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered.
So basically, you haven't even read the OP and decided you are just gonna throw some random youtube video eh?
The ONLY VIABLE WAY TO BEAT 1/1/1 is to go early expo. Its in the OP, and it is true.
1/1/1 doesn't "lock down greedy builds", rather, greedy builds are needed to counter 1/1/1, but normal terran builds lock down greedy protoss builds.
If you don't know what you are talking about at least fucking read the OP before saying stupid shit like 1 base robo holds 1/1/1. It doesn't. Unless you are playing your buddy and he tells you that he will do 1/1/1 and also tells you what kind of 1/1/1 he will do, you need the fast expo.
Funny, because my whole post was responding to the OP. Read it carefully and you'll see that I disagree with the proposition that 1 gate expand is the only way to beat it. Just because the OP says its the only way doesn't mean its the only way was all I was saying. Maybe you should read the post your responding to before you make a totally stupid assertion that isn't even true. I was simply saying that Protoss are throwing in the towel by saying that 1 gate FE is the only way to stop it until it gets patched. Also the person who said 1 gate robo should be used against 1/1/1 wasn't me, it was Tyler.
On August 22 2011 11:18 jimmyjingle wrote: lol! have we gotten any word from MC, does he think 1/1/1 is overpowered? there is yet any evidence that the 1/1/1s we have seen are undefendable or uncounterable, far from it.
MC has already voiced in interviews that he finds PVT to be extremely difficult right now precisely due to this.
these sorts of discussions simply belie a deep-seeded contempt for the game. again, these discussions are entirely, utterly useless. there is no evidence that the 1/1/1 is unbeatable, especially not yet.
As a protoss player I'd like to wait this out and see if we can come up with a counter.
That said I find it EXTREMELY frustrating that KA was removed from the game (not even just nerfed) so quickly due to terran QQ and voidrays were nerfed almost instantly based on a replay from Maka of a toss 1 base all in. Whereas when terran has some arguably OP build that is having a MUCH bigger effect on tournament results they suddenly just want to "wait for it to be figured out".
Somehow terrans are sure Protoss will find an answer to their problems but when its terran getting the shaft they instantly decide its hopeless, start QQing and things get patched immediately.
On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered.
So basically, you haven't even read the OP and decided you are just gonna throw some random youtube video eh?
The ONLY VIABLE WAY TO BEAT 1/1/1 is to go early expo. Its in the OP, and it is true.
1/1/1 doesn't "lock down greedy builds", rather, greedy builds are needed to counter 1/1/1, but normal terran builds lock down greedy protoss builds.
If you don't know what you are talking about at least fucking read the OP before saying stupid shit like 1 base robo holds 1/1/1. It doesn't. Unless you are playing your buddy and he tells you that he will do 1/1/1 and also tells you what kind of 1/1/1 he will do, you need the fast expo.
Funny, because my whole post was responding to the OP. Read it carefully and you'll see that I disagree with the proposition that 1 gate expand is the only way to beat it. Just because the OP says its the only way doesn't mean its the only way was all I was saying. Maybe you should read the post your responding to before you make a totally stupid assertion that isn't even true. I was simply saying that Protoss are throwing in the towel by saying that 1 gate FE is the only way to stop it until it gets patched. Also the person who said 1 gate robo should be used against 1/1/1 wasn't me, it was Tyler.
Theorycraft. All theorycraft. Tell me, would you listen to a Terran giving toss advice or fellow protoss going you advice? Sorry, I would never listen to your rants. Try it out yourself. The reason why we suggest 1 gate expo is because its the only viable way after all means of test. Any idea why 1 gate robo will never work? Sure, you can hold off 1/1/1 FIRST wave, but even with miraculous defense, you're left with some colossus (1~2) and a pathetic amount of zealots and stalkers. Sure, the Terran gives you 2~3 minutes of rebuilding time, but he will roll you with his superior economic and unit advantage. You will have to sack your natural by then and it would be built just as 1/1/1 arrives once more. Without the economic advantage, you will just get eaten up by 1/1/1.
I'm a grandmaster protoss here and i guess ill share my opinion of the 1-1-1 build.
I think there are two good builds vs this (good as in, you have a chance to beat it, still hard), and thats 1gate expand and 1gate robo expand.
I've personally been experimenting with 1gate robo and have had some good success, around a 50% win rate vs this build.
I use 1gate robo vs pretty much everything in pvt, it just kind of relies on scouting and good game sense. The only thing its really weak to is gasless expand and even then its not too terrible.
I think one thing you really need to do is make at least 3-4 immortals early on, and when the attack comes have a couple immortals from behind to pick off the tanks. Once the tanks are gone the push is not as scary.
I think heavy zealot/sentry/immortal with a small amount of stalkers is the best unit composition vs most 1-1-1 builds. With most builds the banshee count wont be too terribly high, 3-4 at the most but usually 1-2 and stalkers are not very good vs marines in high numbers.
I don't feel the build is imbalanced, its extremely strong but I think with practice and more time people will be able to hold it off. Everytime I play this build I feel as though I get better and better at beating it each time.
Although there are still some players who beat me everytime with it (sixjaxmajor, and some other good top players) I think thats only because im not on there level yet.
The hardest part about the build is the different kinds of variety that comes from it. There could be cloak, there could be small amounts of banshee, it could be a fast 7min push or a 10min push, could have a raven could not. That's why I think 1gate robo expand is better than 1 gate nexus, because you can scout exactly what they are doing and respond the best way possible. And you aren't losing that much economy while doing it.
I think in a month or so people will start learning how to crush this and the build will slowly go away, its not the first time a really strong 1base push has come up and thought to be unbeatable.
MC held off the first push perfectly in Game 1, he chose the wrong tech path for the second push. He had just enough time (he stopped first push at 9:00 (and remade nexus soon after), second push hit at 11:40, this is youtube time btw) to get a robo facility, ETL, and one colossus, with another on the way. He didn't need zealot charge. just stalker/zealot/sentry/colossus. I believe that is how he should have held this off, and I think he would have done so. I think that that is the only transition that toss can do. Then it's down to Colossus/Stalker micro. Losing his obs is really bad too. Not to say I could have done anywhere close to the control he did, I play Zerg, but this is my sideline perspective.
I also think toss must be willing to sac natural to wait for reinforcements, just like MC did. But you cannot, you CANNOT one base this. You just die. Anyone else saying differently is blind, or knows something the pros don't, because you just cannot 1 base this.
EPT
