EPTOn a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered.
Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 31
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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Jamesbigpig
United States16 Posts
On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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nvs.
Canada3609 Posts
It's great that he wants to contribute to the discussion, but that doesn't make his thoughts the "be all, end all" on the topic. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:34 Duravi wrote: Sorry I will trust the korean pros like IMMVP and team houses over a foreign player who has admittedly not been practicing much as of late. No disrespect to Tyler, but does he honestly think the solutions he is proposing haven't already been investigated among these korean teams, and at a greater level of refinement than he is currently capable of? Do you really want to see 23 terrans in Code S and 3 protoss before you are willing to admit there may be an issue? 50% of the Protoss made it out of their groups | ||
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paradox_
Canada270 Posts
4gate, roach rushes, marine-scv, 3gate void etc. You scout any of the zerg's all-in you can essentially stop it dead. Same goes for toss and other terran all-ins. All-ins need to exist or everyone plays greedy. I accept this fact and have no problem with it, but all-ins should always be risky in the sense that it IS all-in. 1-1-1 either straight up kills or sets up a ridiculous contain for very little risk to the person executing the all-in. Today we saw Puma showing that he could have kept throwing waves of marine banshee tank raven at MC till he broke. If a zerg or toss tech this hard this early on, they're super vulnerable to losing straight up to things that hit before tech kicks in. Terran with repairable bunkers can hold off almost every all-in in the book as it stands. Even if they "overmake" on bunkers its no where as painful as it is to overmake spines or cannons. | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:40 Jamesbigpig wrote: How I feel as a Terran reading this thread, You clearly didn't read the thread when it is clearly explained why 1 gate FE is done not because it is greedy but because it is required to have a greater amount of units when the attack actually hits. The article clearly explains why FE is a more optimal counter than any 1-base Protoss play. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
It's not "Let's figure out how to beat this", it's "This is impossible to beat". We have all played SC2 long enough to know by now that metagame shifts happen, BIG ones. It wasn't long ago that PvZ was considered totally imbalanced towards Toss, and calls for patches etc happened. But now P struggles against Z, with no big Z buffs or P nerfs. This is how these things go. It's not impossible to beat, you just have to find the right way. It was the same with TvZ 2-rax, which was similarly labeled "unbeatable". | ||
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
In Grandmasters - GSL Code S, this rush is so hard to hold off because people execute perfectly.. oGsMC is without a doubt the best Protoss in the world and he has a hard time holding it off.. I don't think I have ever seen him hold it off on live except against PuMa which doesn't count because PuMa just backed up, got another scary army and moved out all on 1 base. | ||
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MenSol[ZerO]
Canada1134 Posts
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Duravi
United States1205 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:43 hugman wrote: 50% of the Protoss made it out of their groups Ok? I'm not sure what that is meant to prove. | ||
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ak1knight
United States313 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote: But now P struggles against Z, with no big Z buffs or P nerfs. Infester buff? WG nerf? | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:17 Astro-Penguin wrote: 1. Well your either pressuring or scouting with an observer, if you cant expand then cancel it or just simply dont expand, only time you should expand is if your certain he wont roll you. 2. If he lifts to his natraul your army should come out ahead in the prior engagement and he shouldnt be able to sufficently hold anything, and tbh you shoulden't run out of minerals that quick assuming everyones timing is going well. 3. Again, if you scout something like that you have to examine the weaknesses within what hes doing and expose it the best you can, at this point if he scout a reactor marine build you can just do a 3 Gate Stalker/Sentry push and there is really nothing he will be able to do, he will be forced to retreat to his main while you expand. (Specific situation). 4. People seem to always over estimate bunkers, and honestly if your forcing bunkers then your doing something right. Honestly Terran is definently to flexible in comparision to Protoss but thats a whole different issue imo and blizzard has acknowledged this, the main problem I see is that protoss are unwilling to play without a guranteed win if holding the terrans attack and because of this they are just taking risks instead of being 100% sure they will not die to any sort of push. To me it seems people are just upset that terran can transition out of an all in and protoss cant, its a design flaw I agree there but its not the reason why Protoss are losing to 1-1-1 or various other all ins. 1. Protoss HAS to throw down a nexus before the main is mined out, and pressuring against sieged tanks is a great idea, but I'll let you try first. The problem is he can roll you the moment you expand in 99% of cases with the 1/1/1 simply because the units are more cost efficient. 2. You can't break the expo if it has 4 sieged tanks. Also the way terran works is that they pay for units and later they come out. Their still making shit even when the CC is lifted. Their army isn't any weaker while the CC is lifted, and if they set up all the tanks, it's not EVER a good idea to try and attack a defensive sieged position without a HUGE advantage. Also what prior engagement? Who said terran must attack with this build? This is what happens when both players continue to one-base. both players mine out, Terran lifts, Protoss has to build a nexus, and Protoss gets the worse end of the stick. That's just an undeniable fact. 3. 3gate stalker/sentry doesn't come off a gaterobogate. It's a pressure based build for scouting. 4. The build incorporates one bunker simply out of necessity, and a bunker full of marines doesn't tell you much at all apart from the fact that it's probably a tech build. | ||
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Mike15xp
United States595 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote: People's approach is all wrong. It's not "Let's figure out how to beat this", it's "This is impossible to beat". We have all played SC2 long enough to know by now that metagame shifts happen, BIG ones. It wasn't long ago that PvZ was considered totally imbalanced towards Toss, and calls for patches etc happened. But now P struggles against Z, with no big Z buffs or P nerfs. This is how these things go. It's not impossible to beat, you just have to find the right way. It was the same with TvZ 2-rax, which was similarly labeled "unbeatable". you cant be serious ... if you think that there were no zerg buffs / protoss nerfs ... then im not even going to bother and TvZ 2-rax was more of an issue with small maps and close spawns ... which obviously is not used in tournaments anymore | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote: People's approach is all wrong. It's not "Let's figure out how to beat this", it's "This is impossible to beat". We have all played SC2 long enough to know by now that metagame shifts happen, BIG ones. It wasn't long ago that PvZ was considered totally imbalanced towards Toss, and calls for patches etc happened. But now P struggles against Z, with no big Z buffs or P nerfs. This is how these things go. It's not impossible to beat, you just have to find the right way. It was the same with TvZ 2-rax, which was similarly labeled "unbeatable". Spore buff + infestor buff + bigger maps + easier to defend naturals + roach range buff + warp gate nerf + zealot build time nerf + void ray nerf + stim timing nerf + build depot before barracks nerf + all kinds of bunker nerfs + neutral depot blocking ramps. Seriously even a small tweak is enough to balance the 1-1-1. Noone is asking for anything big. | ||
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benbrad2
103 Posts
Why complain it's false design now? Shouldn't we wait until things cool down just a bit? I'm not a zerg player but, it's true that they've had the hardest path upto this point. Being called the "hardest race to play" and not getting enough rewards. Also being too squishy and not enough unit choices.... All these are true to a certain extent. Howevever, they have adapted to all these different circumstances thrown at them. But lets just give Protoss a little more time.... I mean it's like trying to solve a math problem and giving up the moment you see it. Let it sink in your head, think for it, practice it. do some other problems and apply to it. I think it's too early to say anything about 1/1/1 with regards to its design and balance issues. | ||
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote: People's approach is all wrong. It's not "Let's figure out how to beat this", it's "This is impossible to beat". We have all played SC2 long enough to know by now that metagame shifts happen, BIG ones. It wasn't long ago that PvZ was considered totally imbalanced towards Toss, and calls for patches etc happened. But now P struggles against Z, with no big Z buffs or P nerfs. This is how these things go. It's not impossible to beat, you just have to find the right way. It was the same with TvZ 2-rax, which was similarly labeled "unbeatable". What are you talking about, they buffed Z (infestors, spore time) and they nerfed protoss (KA, warp time) | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:11 MrRicewife wrote: How come nobody uses static defense against this? I feel like a couple cannons would do very well against the back and forth dancing? Marine count would be a lot lower and banshees would take a lot more hits. Posts like this is why I'm starting to like bnet forums. Besides freedom of speech you can instantly look if someone knows wtf they are talking about by ranking. In your case I'm guessing bronze suggesting static defenses against a siege tank push. | ||
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Jamesbigpig
United States16 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:44 kheldorin wrote: You clearly didn't read the thread when it is clearly explained why 1 gate FE is done not because it is greedy but because it is required to have a greater amount of units when the attack actually hits. The article clearly explains why FE is a more optimal counter than any 1-base Protoss play. Thats what I was responding to, Koreans are unwilling to look for new alternatives in Terran vs Protoss. They consider FE the only way to beat a 1/1/1 Terran even though they never try anything else. I actually half agree that 1/1/1 is overpowered, I just think that there are things that aren't even considered in the OP or anywhere on this thread. Such as how you can when you see the banshee use sentries and zealots to force the Terran to keep having to stop and siege his tanks. When I off-race as Protoss this is what I did when I scouted the build and it works very well because it gives the time needed to make more units while not having to sack your expansion. | ||
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:40 Jamesbigpig wrote: How I feel as a Terran reading this thread, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered. The problem with 1 base robo, is if the terran went 1 rax expo, your fucked economically already. The terran can easily fake building a gas or just get 1 gas but put no workers in it, making it look like 1 base play or techlab+reactor expand. But the terran can easily, after killing the probe, throw down a quick orbital. By the time obs sees this, terran has tons of energy on his second orbital, all he has to do is land it, and the terran is econimcally ahead, then toss gets owned later game. This is why toss NEEDS to expand. | ||
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fraktoasters
United States617 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:49 kheldorin wrote: Spore buff + infestor buff + bigger maps + easier to defend naturals + roach range buff + warp gate nerf + zealot build time nerf + void ray nerf + stim timing nerf + build depot before barracks nerf + all kinds of bunker nerfs + neutral depot blocking ramps. Seriously even a small tweak is enough to balance the 1-1-1. Noone is asking for anything big. All these changes AND Zergs are still losing to 2 rax bunkers... | ||
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