EPT... and then because Terrans switch back to more pressure based builds to exploit those greedy builds ... people are whining imbas?
I fail to see what is imbalanced here? Do you expect to play the same strategies forever?
Why 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 32
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
... and then because Terrans switch back to more pressure based builds to exploit those greedy builds ... people are whining imbas? I fail to see what is imbalanced here? Do you expect to play the same strategies forever? | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:53 Antisocialmunky wrote: So... people get used to Terrans doing faster expands and counter it by greedier builds ... and then because Terrans switch back to more pressure based builds to exploit those greedy builds ... people are whining imbas? I fail to see what is imbalanced here? Do you expect to play the same game forever? Check the OP please. | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:49 benbrad2 wrote: Didn't 1/1/1 build exist since almost the beginning of the official release? Why complain it's false design now? Shouldn't we wait until things cool down just a bit? I'm not a zerg player but, it's true that they've had the hardest path upto this point. Being called the "hardest race to play" and not getting enough rewards. Also being too squishy and not enough unit choices.... All these are true to a certain extent. Howevever, they have adapted to all these different circumstances thrown at them. But lets just give Protoss a little more time.... I mean it's like trying to solve a math problem and giving up the moment you see it. Let it sink in your head, think for it, practice it. do some other problems and apply to it. I think it's too early to say anything about 1/1/1 with regards to its design and balance issues. Read the thread before posting, or else it makes you look like a fool. Let me explain to you. First off, yes, 1/1/1 exists since beta. But then, 4gate and vr rush virtually counters it. So, terrans never went and use it. However, after the warp gate and void ray nerf, 1/1/1 is left with no direct counter. Therefore, terrans made use of it and is currently exploiting it now. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote: People's approach is all wrong. It's not "Let's figure out how to beat this", it's "This is impossible to beat". We have all played SC2 long enough to know by now that metagame shifts happen, BIG ones. It wasn't long ago that PvZ was considered totally imbalanced towards Toss, and calls for patches etc happened. But now P struggles against Z, with no big Z buffs or P nerfs. This is how these things go. It's not impossible to beat, you just have to find the right way. It was the same with TvZ 2-rax, which was similarly labeled "unbeatable". PvZ was considered imbalanced, but wasn't actually that bad if you look at win rates in actual tournaments. Also, there were some fairly significant P nerfs and Z buffs since that time. Not to take away from the hard work of Zerg players, who experimented, and found new, better ways to play the matchup. However, that whole process isn't at all similar to what we're seeing in TvP at the moment. The "PvZ imbalance" was primarily focused on late and mid games, where Protoss armies of superior cost-effectiveness reigned supreme. The solution to this was either using different units (ling/bling/infestor as opposed roach/hydra/corrupter) or using different tactics with the old units (huge drops and multi-pronged attacks, counters and base trades). This isn't a midgame problem. It's not a style that is very hard to deal with. It's a goddamned 1 base all-in that Protoss can't defend even if they know it's coming. There's a limit to how much stuff you can do within the first 10 minutes of the game, and we're close to exhausting our options here. Finally, 2 rax is so good not because the attack is powerful, but because the Zerg can't know how much the Terran will commit to the pressure, and what the followup will be. The difficulty is being able to survive a 4 rax all-in followup while not falling behind vs a 2 rax CC. It's a scouting problem. With the 1/1/1, you usually lose even if you know everything a few minutes in advance. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:04 WarrickHunt wrote: Hi, welcome to our world, sincerely zerg User was warned for this post I'm a Z player, gtfo. My icon is a dragoon because Protoss is my StarCraft 1 race. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
I don't agree with the OP, there are some valid point but the theorizing in it is thinking in a box of X counters 1/1/1, but we can't do X because we are behind. Same thing happened with 12-14 Rax FE. But the maps adjusted and the players adjusted. 1/1/1 was held off in the beta when maps were much smaller :\ | ||
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paradox_
Canada270 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:43 hugman wrote: 50% of the Protoss made it out of their groups Huk was in a PPZT group and didn't face 1-1-1 if I recall. (2 wins came from PvP). Puzzle faced 1-1-1 and lost if I remember correctly. He won the next 2 games (PvT) but if I remember correctly he faced a badly executed 1-1-1 (free banshees) and a standard game right? Correct me if I'm wrong, I can't remember. HongUn I never got to see the matches so someone else will have to talk about it, but since hes in a PTTT group and made it out I assume he didn't face 1-1-1 | ||
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Mike15xp
United States595 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:53 Antisocialmunky wrote: So... people get used to Terrans doing faster expands and counter it by greedier builds ... and then because Terrans switch back to more pressure based builds to exploit those greedy builds ... people are whining imbas? I fail to see what is imbalanced here? Do you expect to play the same strategies forever? pressure based build? do you even know what the 1/1/1 is? its a fucking all-in with scvs pulled that requires FE to have enough units to hold | ||
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:40 Jamesbigpig wrote: How I feel as a Terran reading this thread, On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered. So basically, you haven't even read the OP and decided you are just gonna throw some random youtube video eh? The ONLY VIABLE WAY TO BEAT 1/1/1 is to go early expo. Its in the OP, and it is true. 1/1/1 doesn't "lock down greedy builds", rather, greedy builds are needed to counter 1/1/1, but normal terran builds lock down greedy protoss builds. If you don't know what you are talking about at least fucking read the OP before saying stupid shit like 1 base robo holds 1/1/1. It doesn't. Unless you are playing your buddy and he tells you that he will do 1/1/1 and also tells you what kind of 1/1/1 he will do, you need the fast expo. | ||
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Swad1000
United States366 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:40 Jamesbigpig wrote: How I feel as a Terran reading this thread, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owzhYNcd4OM On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered. Read op before making stupid posts. 3 gate robo is unable to hold 111 and that is one of the safest builds in the game. Edit- Tell us how to use sentries to forcefield sieged tanks or banshees. | ||
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snafoo
New Zealand1615 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote: People's approach is all wrong. It's not "Let's figure out how to beat this", it's "This is impossible to beat". We have all played SC2 long enough to know by now that metagame shifts happen, BIG ones. It wasn't long ago that PvZ was considered totally imbalanced towards Toss, and calls for patches etc happened. But now P struggles against Z, with no big Z buffs or P nerfs. This is how these things go. It's not impossible to beat, you just have to find the right way. It was the same with TvZ 2-rax, which was similarly labeled "unbeatable". I don't know if you've been watching Code A/S this month, but people HAVE been trying to stop it, they have started doing the most crazy weird strats(eg; MC's "basetrade stargate" strat) simply because they don't know what to do against it anymore. | ||
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:48 Amui wrote: 1. Protoss HAS to throw down a nexus before the main is mined out, and pressuring against sieged tanks is a great idea, but I'll let you try first. The problem is he can roll you the moment you expand in 99% of cases with the 1/1/1 simply because the units are more cost efficient. 2. You can't break the expo if it has 4 sieged tanks. Also the way terran works is that they pay for units and later they come out. Their still making shit even when the CC is lifted. Their army isn't any weaker while the CC is lifted, and if they set up all the tanks, it's not EVER a good idea to try and attack a defensive sieged position without a HUGE advantage. Also what prior engagement? Who said terran must attack with this build? This is what happens when both players continue to one-base. both players mine out, Terran lifts, Protoss has to build a nexus, and Protoss gets the worse end of the stick. That's just an undeniable fact. 3. 3gate stalker/sentry doesn't come off a gaterobogate. It's a pressure based build for scouting. 4. The build incorporates one bunker simply out of necessity, and a bunker full of marines doesn't tell you much at all apart from the fact that it's probably a tech build. 1. Man only expand when you know its safe, defend the push then attack then expand, there is no way he can deny the expand if your attacking. The whole point of 1 base to counter this is that your unit composition is designed to beat his. 2. With colossi you sure as hell can, if he dosen't attack you can just attack and expand yoruself and hes not going to be able to deal with any sort of colossi composition with that many marines. In terms of blink stalkers if he expands instead of attacking then he cant defend 2 locations at once, expand get a warp prism with immortals and harass with blink stalker/immortal and you'll be amazed at how much damage you can do, 3. You can still produce enough stalker/sentrys to do enough damage and even add on an immortal to target down the bunker, and with Robo you can even go for a very fast Colossi timing off 1 base or even 2, since he has mainly marines at that point all you have to do is harass his marines with stalkers if he tries to move out and from there you can safely tech up. 4. If hes walled off with a bunker then theres no getting into his main, but it tells you hes teching or doing a gasless expand, either way with 1 Gate Robo you can punish both builds. | ||
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Blizzard_torments_me
Romania199 Posts
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lizzard_warish
589 Posts
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Ravencruiser
Canada519 Posts
On August 22 2011 06:55 LicH. wrote: I'll just leave this here http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjYzMTg0MTQw.html Further proof, I'll word it this way, why "Protoss is at an IMMENSE disadvantage in PvT" (instead of 1/1/1 IMBA! cries). WATCH THESE GAMES between the Chinese pro xiaOt and none other than MarineKing: First game: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjYzMTg0MTQw.html Recap: xiaOt opens 1 gate FE, while MKP goes for 1/1/1 with marines/siege tanks/banshees. MKP scouts the fast FE and proceeds to push, while xiaOt scouts the 1/1/1 with a probe shortly before. With 3 gate (4th warping) and a robo pumping immortals, AND a near perfect 3 way flank, he crushes the 1/1/1 push and proceeds to deny MKP's natural and win the game. Exactly what the OP said, 1/1/1 can be held off with the extra income from 1 gate FE. Second game: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjYzMTg3NTk2.html Recap: xiaOt opens 1 gate FE yet again, while MKP goes for a strong 2 rax (reactor + tech lab) scv push in correct anticipation of the 1 gate FE. xiaOt has 3 warp gates and a robo when the push hits, but has like 5 units in total so he's forced to give up the natural expo. MKP goes for a bunker contain at the protoss ramp, and the game at this point should be, essentially over. However, xiaOt played AMAZING this game, choosing to make a warp prism and counters the terran base forcing MKP to pull his army back to defend, killing all but 7 SCVs (he keeps 3 sentries at his ramp for defense). Then, the Chinese commentators point to just how good (imba, if you will) the mules are; MKP has 2 orbitals, and he pumps SCVs none stop with mules, somehow surpassing the protoss' ~26 probes in mineral income and looks to be in a very good shape (xiaOt stopped probes/tech/expansion during his counter). xiaOt had however, ninja'ed a probe out with his warp prism earlier and ninjas an expansion, which remains unscouted for most of the game - a huge blunder on MKP's part. With this ninja expo, xiaOt holds the next terran bio push at his natural with some very nice FF usage and the game goes to a late game where xiaOt eventually wins. Again, exactly as the OP says, if protosses gambles on a 1 gate FE, they will lose their natural expo and subsequently the game if the terran player goes for any sort of 2 rax pushes. Conclusion: 1/1/1 with marines/tanks/banshees can be held off with 1 gate FE, but the protoss is forced to guess whether the terran player is actually going for 1/1/1 or a 2 rax pressure. If the protoss player guesses wrong, he dies, simple as that. But for the terran player, it's still possible to play an even or slightly behind game despite his initial build order choice. TLDR: Further evidence confirming the OP, the (option of doing) 1/1/1 gives Terran players a huge advantage over their protoss opponents. | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:58 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't agree with the OP, there are some valid point but the theorizing in it is thinking in a box of X counters 1/1/1, but we can't do X because we are behind. Same thing happened with 12-14 Rax FE. But the maps adjusted and the players adjusted. 1/1/1 was held off in the beta when maps were much smaller :\ lol are you kidding? beta protoss had faster building immortals(40 seconds), insanely fast warp gate research 60 seconds), faster build time for zealots (33seconds), faster build time for gateways, much more powerful void rays, longer chrono boost...... 30 seconds instead of 20 thats what it took to make the 111 not viable in beta :D Give it back blizzard | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On August 22 2011 11:03 Astro-Penguin wrote: 1. Man only expand when you know its safe, defend the push then attack then expand, there is no way he can deny the expand if your attacking. The whole point of 1 base to counter this is that your unit composition is designed to beat his. 2. With colossi you sure as hell can, if he dosen't attack you can just attack and expand yoruself and hes not going to be able to deal with any sort of colossi composition with that many marines. In terms of blink stalkers if he expands instead of attacking then he cant defend 2 locations at once, expand get a warp prism with immortals and harass with blink stalker/immortal and you'll be amazed at how much damage you can do, 3. You can still produce enough stalker/sentrys to do enough damage and even add on an immortal to target down the bunker, and with Robo you can even go for a very fast Colossi timing off 1 base or even 2, since he has mainly marines at that point all you have to do is harass his marines with stalkers if he tries to move out and from there you can safely tech up. 4. If hes walled off with a bunker then theres no getting into his main, but it tells you hes teching or doing a gasless expand, either way with 1 Gate Robo you can punish both builds. You're teaching us how to counter mass Marines. You forgot ravens with PDD, seige tanks, banshees and medivacs exist. You want to attack him with colossus? Any idea how fast a colossus dies to a banshee? Try to even position any blink stalkers nearby, they will get chewed up by tanks and PDD. | ||
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namedplayer
844 Posts
Here are some replays from GM protoss on Korean ladder. he guaranteed 90% win rates against 1/1/1 build. http://sc2ranks.com/kr/81800/무적파워레인정 | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
No matter how insanely overpowered something is, there will always be tons of people thinking it's fine. Nowadays, when we look back at pre-nerf reapers, we obviously agree that they were overpowered. Back then, however, the equivalents to this thread were filled with Terrans saying Zergs needed to "figure it out" and "play less greedy". There's a huge blog post by avilo back from the Beta, where he fervently defends 70 damage tanks. Meh, good for Terrans in the GSL in the meantime, tons of free wins and money for them. | ||
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