On August 22 2011 11:18 jimmyjingle wrote: lol! have we gotten any word from MC, does he think 1/1/1 is overpowered? there is yet any evidence that the 1/1/1s we have seen are undefendable or uncounterable, far from it.
when puma won against mc during nasl, he went to pumas booth and raised his hand, during todays iem final, puma won and he went to mcs booth and tried to do a handshake , mc did not even look at him, he straight up ignored puma, he was really mad . yeah mc really thinks this sht is op as fuck
On August 22 2011 11:33 Flonomenalz wrote: MC held off the first push perfectly in Game 1, he chose the wrong tech path for the second push. He had just enough time (he stopped first push at 9:00 (and remade nexus soon after), second push hit at 11:40, this is youtube time btw) to get a robo facility, ETL, and one colossus, with another on the way. He didn't need zealot charge. just stalker/zealot/sentry/colossus. I believe that is how he should have held this off, and I think he would have done so. I think that that is the only transition that toss can do. Then it's down to Colossus/Stalker micro. Losing his obs is really bad too. Not to say I could have done anywhere close to the control he did, I play Zerg, but this is my sideline perspective.
I also think toss must be willing to sac natural to wait for reinforcements, just like MC did. But you cannot, you CANNOT one base this. You just die. Anyone else saying differently is blind, or knows something the pros don't, because you just cannot 1 base this.
he never pulled probes either, lol. MC was up 30 workers and didn't think to pull probes until he had 2 zealots and 35 workers.
On August 22 2011 11:33 Flonomenalz wrote: MC held off the first push perfectly in Game 1, he chose the wrong tech path for the second push. He had just enough time (he stopped first push at 9:00 (and remade nexus soon after), second push hit at 11:40, this is youtube time btw) to get a robo facility, ETL, and one colossus, with another on the way. He didn't need zealot charge. just stalker/zealot/sentry/colossus. I believe that is how he should have held this off, and I think he would have done so. I think that that is the only transition that toss can do. Then it's down to Colossus/Stalker micro. Losing his obs is really bad too. Not to say I could have done anywhere close to the control he did, I play Zerg, but this is my sideline perspective.
I also think toss must be willing to sac natural to wait for reinforcements, just like MC did. But you cannot, you CANNOT one base this. You just die. Anyone else saying differently is blind, or knows something the pros don't, because you just cannot 1 base this.
I don't know,,,, if he went collosus he would of had even LESS stalkers and he didn't even have enough to stop it as it was.
On August 22 2011 10:40 Jamesbigpig wrote: How I feel as a Terran reading this thread,
On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered.
So basically, you haven't even read the OP and decided you are just gonna throw some random youtube video eh?
The ONLY VIABLE WAY TO BEAT 1/1/1 is to go early expo. Its in the OP, and it is true.
1/1/1 doesn't "lock down greedy builds", rather, greedy builds are needed to counter 1/1/1, but normal terran builds lock down greedy protoss builds.
If you don't know what you are talking about at least fucking read the OP before saying stupid shit like 1 base robo holds 1/1/1. It doesn't. Unless you are playing your buddy and he tells you that he will do 1/1/1 and also tells you what kind of 1/1/1 he will do, you need the fast expo.
Funny, because my whole post was responding to the OP. Read it carefully and you'll see that I disagree with the proposition that 1 gate expand is the only way to beat it. Just because the OP says its the only way doesn't mean its the only way was all I was saying. Maybe you should read the post your responding to before you make a totally stupid assertion that isn't even true. I was simply saying that Protoss are throwing in the towel by saying that 1 gate FE is the only way to stop it until it gets patched. Also the person who said 1 gate robo should be used against 1/1/1 wasn't me, it was Tyler.
The thing is, how is the FE hurting the protoss when the terran does the 1-1-1 build? if anything, it only helps. The 1-1-1 build hits pretty late where the FE is giving the toss player the economic advantage and already paying for itself. That timing and build is not punishing the FE.
On August 22 2011 11:33 Flonomenalz wrote: MC held off the first push perfectly in Game 1, he chose the wrong tech path for the second push. He had just enough time (he stopped first push at 9:00 (and remade nexus soon after), second push hit at 11:40, this is youtube time btw) to get a robo facility, ETL, and one colossus, with another on the way. He didn't need zealot charge. just stalker/zealot/sentry/colossus. I believe that is how he should have held this off, and I think he would have done so. I think that that is the only transition that toss can do. Then it's down to Colossus/Stalker micro. Losing his obs is really bad too. Not to say I could have done anywhere close to the control he did, I play Zerg, but this is my sideline perspective.
I also think toss must be willing to sac natural to wait for reinforcements, just like MC did. But you cannot, you CANNOT one base this. You just die. Anyone else saying differently is blind, or knows something the pros don't, because you just cannot 1 base this.
he never pulled probes either, lol. MC was up 30 workers and didn't think to pull probes until he had 2 zealots and 35 workers.
Pulling probes in PvT is suicide. The fact is, even if you hold the next wave will almost always kill you. Unless you manage to completely crush and then do counter damage the T player will have such an economy lead (even if you're even on bases) that its over. P players have learned from experience not to pull except in the most dire situations (such as bitbybit games)
On August 22 2011 11:34 gustavohmp wrote: If its so impossible to hold, how come MC was at the finals to begin with? Also, didnt read the whole thread, but was this cited at any time? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=211115 Pretty good reading IMO
its not impossible to hold, that's not the issue please read the OP. THX
I dont know why i even bother to post in these threads, everyone just cries instead of looking on mistakes they make and how they can fix it. People dont seem to understand reactive play nor taking advantage of non pre emptive timings, apparently to 85% of this thread there is no good unit composition avaliable to deal with 1-1-1 (These are probably the guys letting them siege in their nautral and then proceeding to attack down a small ramp then complaining)
1-1-1 is definently a strong build, maybe a bit to strong but far from unbeatable, speaking as a high masters Protoss I can say that this build really isent as bad as this thread is making it out to be. People seem to forget that all inning is always easier for the attacker in most cases, and honestly when you do 1 Base to defend this the terrans mistakes are suddenly alot more damaging to his game due to the fact that you are limiting his chance of success.
It seems people love to cling to flavor of the month imbalances just to satisfy their inflated egos and hop on the bandwagon base said imbalance of sloppy games by pro Protoss players.
On August 22 2011 11:44 Astro-Penguin wrote: I dont know why i even bother to post in these threads, everyone just cries instead of looking on mistakes they make and how they can fix it. People dont seem to understand reactive play nor taking advantage of pre emptive timings, apparently to 85% of this thread there is no good unit composition avaliable to deal with 1-1-1 (These are probably the guys letting them siege in their nautral and then proceeding to attack down a small ramp then complaining)
1-1-1 is definently a strong build, maybe a bit to strong but far from unbeatable, speaking as a high masters Protoss I can say that this build really isent as bad as this thread is making it out to be.
It seems people love to cling to flavor of the month imbalances just to satisfy their inflated egos and hop on the bandwagon base said imbalance of sloppy games by pro Protoss players.
Two flaws with this post. One, the point isn't that its unbeatable, but that its too hard to defeat. Two, you're saying people need to take advantage of preemptive timing? That means that they need to blind counter and all-in. That's just as boring to watch.
That's why I hate it. Its fucking boring. MC v Puma at NASL was amazing. These last games were so god damn dull.
On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered.
So basically, you haven't even read the OP and decided you are just gonna throw some random youtube video eh?
The ONLY VIABLE WAY TO BEAT 1/1/1 is to go early expo. Its in the OP, and it is true.
1/1/1 doesn't "lock down greedy builds", rather, greedy builds are needed to counter 1/1/1, but normal terran builds lock down greedy protoss builds.
If you don't know what you are talking about at least fucking read the OP before saying stupid shit like 1 base robo holds 1/1/1. It doesn't. Unless you are playing your buddy and he tells you that he will do 1/1/1 and also tells you what kind of 1/1/1 he will do, you need the fast expo.
Funny, because my whole post was responding to the OP. Read it carefully and you'll see that I disagree with the proposition that 1 gate expand is the only way to beat it. Just because the OP says its the only way doesn't mean its the only way was all I was saying. Maybe you should read the post your responding to before you make a totally stupid assertion that isn't even true. I was simply saying that Protoss are throwing in the towel by saying that 1 gate FE is the only way to stop it until it gets patched. Also the person who said 1 gate robo should be used against 1/1/1 wasn't me, it was Tyler.
The thing is, how is the FE hurting the protoss when the terran does the 1-1-1 build? if anything, it only helps. The 1-1-1 build hits pretty late where the FE is giving the toss player the economic advantage and already paying for itself. That timing and build is not punishing the FE.
Are you seriously asking how the FE is hurting the protoss... do you even watch Starcraft 2? Do you even play? Ever heard of a timing attack (what this build is) the 1/1/1 build is DESIGNED to punish the FE... Thats the entire point, because right now the Meta game screams for protoss to take a 20 food nexus (for what ever reason i dont know). That 400 minerals + money / chronoboost in probes adds up to about 5-10 additional units + less tech. Usually if the Protoss doesn't expand he usually holds it. I'd say about 60/40>
On August 22 2011 11:44 Astro-Penguin wrote: I dont know why i even bother to post in these threads, everyone just cries instead of looking on mistakes they make and how they can fix it. People dont seem to understand reactive play nor taking advantage of pre emptive timings, apparently to 85% of this thread there is no good unit composition avaliable to deal with 1-1-1 (These are probably the guys letting them siege in their nautral and then proceeding to attack down a small ramp then complaining)
1-1-1 is definently a strong build, maybe a bit to strong but far from unbeatable, speaking as a high masters Protoss I can say that this build really isent as bad as this thread is making it out to be.
It seems people love to cling to flavor of the month imbalances just to satisfy their inflated egos and hop on the bandwagon base said imbalance of sloppy games by pro Protoss players.
Two flaws with this post. One, the point isn't that its unbeatable, but that its too hard to defeat. Two, you're saying people need to take advantage of preemptive timing? That means that they need to blind counter and all-in. That's just as boring to watch.
That's why I hate it. Its fucking boring. MC v Puma at NASL was amazing. These last games were so god damn dull.
Hm maybe you misunderstood me but when i refer to pre emptive timings im talking about scouting an exploit within your opponent and formulating a timing in which you can abuse said weakness. (Completey opposite of metagaming)
On August 22 2011 11:44 Astro-Penguin wrote: I dont know why i even bother to post in these threads, everyone just cries instead of looking on mistakes they make and how they can fix it. People dont seem to understand reactive play nor taking advantage of pre emptive timings, apparently to 85% of this thread there is no good unit composition avaliable to deal with 1-1-1 (These are probably the guys letting them siege in their nautral and then proceeding to attack down a small ramp then complaining)
1-1-1 is definently a strong build, maybe a bit to strong but far from unbeatable, speaking as a high masters Protoss I can say that this build really isent as bad as this thread is making it out to be.
It seems people love to cling to flavor of the month imbalances just to satisfy their inflated egos and hop on the bandwagon base said imbalance of sloppy games by pro Protoss players.
Two flaws with this post. One, the point isn't that its unbeatable, but that its too hard to defeat. Two, you're saying people need to take advantage of non preemptive timings? That means that they need to blind counter and all-in. That's just as boring to watch.
That's why I hate it. Its fucking boring. MC v Puma at NASL was amazing. These last games were so god damn dull.
Hm maybe you misunderstood me but when i refer to pre emptive timings im talking about scouting an exploit within your opponent and formulating a timing in which you can abuse said weakness. (Completey opposite of metagaming)
(i forgot to put non before pre emptive my bad ;p)
On August 22 2011 11:44 Astro-Penguin wrote: I dont know why i even bother to post in these threads, everyone just cries instead of looking on mistakes they make and how they can fix it. People dont seem to understand reactive play nor taking advantage of pre emptive timings, apparently to 85% of this thread there is no good unit composition avaliable to deal with 1-1-1 (These are probably the guys letting them siege in their nautral and then proceeding to attack down a small ramp then complaining)
1-1-1 is definently a strong build, maybe a bit to strong but far from unbeatable, speaking as a high masters Protoss I can say that this build really isent as bad as this thread is making it out to be. People seem to forget that all inning is always easier for the attacker in most cases, and honestly when you do 1 Base to defend this the terrans mistakes are suddenly alot more damaging to his game due to the fact that you are limiting his chance of success.
It seems people love to cling to flavor of the month imbalances just to satisfy their inflated egos and hop on the bandwagon base said imbalance of sloppy games by pro Protoss players.
Masters Protoss in NA is only diamond level protoss in Korea. I am happy to arrange a Master level Korean Terran player while it is being streamed you and him can have multiple matches. If you are willing to call my efforts to translate, which would have of helped some people to gain insights of Korean ladder, an inflated ego - you are pretty disrespectful.
On August 22 2011 11:44 Astro-Penguin wrote: I dont know why i even bother to post in these threads, everyone just cries instead of looking on mistakes they make and how they can fix it. People dont seem to understand reactive play nor taking advantage of pre emptive timings, apparently to 85% of this thread there is no good unit composition avaliable to deal with 1-1-1 (These are probably the guys letting them siege in their nautral and then proceeding to attack down a small ramp then complaining)
1-1-1 is definently a strong build, maybe a bit to strong but far from unbeatable, speaking as a high masters Protoss I can say that this build really isent as bad as this thread is making it out to be. People seem to forget that all inning is always easier for the attacker in most cases, and honestly when you do 1 Base to defend this the terrans mistakes are suddenly alot more damaging to his game due to the fact that you are limiting his chance of success.
It seems people love to cling to flavor of the month imbalances just to satisfy their inflated egos and hop on the bandwagon base said imbalance of sloppy games by pro Protoss players.
yeah right, thats why immvp , the best terran in the world says playing this build is disrespectful and he will never play this build ever again. also slayers alicia , a code s protoss tweeting about it, i think he as more knowledge and insight then you, he plays with slayers clan all day, where most of them are top terran in the world right now.
On August 22 2011 11:44 Astro-Penguin wrote: I dont know why i even bother to post in these threads, everyone just cries instead of looking on mistakes they make and how they can fix it. People dont seem to understand reactive play nor taking advantage of non pre emptive timings, apparently to 85% of this thread there is no good unit composition avaliable to deal with 1-1-1 (These are probably the guys letting them siege in their nautral and then proceeding to attack down a small ramp then complaining)
1-1-1 is definently a strong build, maybe a bit to strong but far from unbeatable, speaking as a high masters Protoss I can say that this build really isent as bad as this thread is making it out to be. People seem to forget that all inning is always easier for the attacker in most cases, and honestly when you do 1 Base to defend this the terrans mistakes are suddenly alot more damaging to his game due to the fact that you are limiting his chance of success.
It seems people love to cling to flavor of the month imbalances just to satisfy their inflated egos and hop on the bandwagon base said imbalance of sloppy games by pro Protoss players.
Damn, you should send an email to the korean teams, I'm sure they'd love to hire you as a consultant because it seems like you know your stuff.
On a more serious note, I think the reason Korean Protosses despise 1/1/1 so much because it locks down greedy builds that have become accepted as "the only way to play TvP." Almost any time a race calls something imbalanced, they say there is only one way to stop it and that one way will get crushed by the other builds of the overpowered race. In my opinion 1/1/1 isn't overpowered, I think that no one has ever seen such a refined version of it repurposed as an all-in. I think that Protoss players will began to transition in to safer builds that don't involve a risky expansion but aren't focused on 1 base as the answer. Much like tyler said 1 base robo with the quick scout is probably the way to go. Protoss will just have to go back to holding rushes with sentries maybe. Protoss isn't underpowered as much as Terran in general are slightly overpowered.
So basically, you haven't even read the OP and decided you are just gonna throw some random youtube video eh?
The ONLY VIABLE WAY TO BEAT 1/1/1 is to go early expo. Its in the OP, and it is true.
1/1/1 doesn't "lock down greedy builds", rather, greedy builds are needed to counter 1/1/1, but normal terran builds lock down greedy protoss builds.
If you don't know what you are talking about at least fucking read the OP before saying stupid shit like 1 base robo holds 1/1/1. It doesn't. Unless you are playing your buddy and he tells you that he will do 1/1/1 and also tells you what kind of 1/1/1 he will do, you need the fast expo.
Funny, because my whole post was responding to the OP. Read it carefully and you'll see that I disagree with the proposition that 1 gate expand is the only way to beat it. Just because the OP says its the only way doesn't mean its the only way was all I was saying. Maybe you should read the post your responding to before you make a totally stupid assertion that isn't even true. I was simply saying that Protoss are throwing in the towel by saying that 1 gate FE is the only way to stop it until it gets patched. Also the person who said 1 gate robo should be used against 1/1/1 wasn't me, it was Tyler.
The thing is, how is the FE hurting the protoss when the terran does the 1-1-1 build? if anything, it only helps. The 1-1-1 build hits pretty late where the FE is giving the toss player the economic advantage and already paying for itself. That timing and build is not punishing the FE.
Are you seriously asking how the FE is hurting the protoss... do you even watch Starcraft 2? Do you even play? Ever heard of a timing attack (what this build is) the 1/1/1 build is DESIGNED to punish the FE... Thats the entire point, because right now the Meta game screams for protoss to take a 20 food nexus (for what ever reason i dont know). That 400 minerals + money / chronoboost in probes adds up to about 5-10 additional units + less tech. Usually if the Protoss doesn't expand he usually holds it. I'd say about 60/40>
OMFG. Can you guys read the article which explained why with a faster expo, you get more units out when the timing actually hits? It explains why 1 gate FE or 15 nexus is the response to 1/1/1, not the other way round.
On August 22 2011 11:44 Astro-Penguin wrote: I dont know why i even bother to post in these threads, everyone just cries instead of looking on mistakes they make and how they can fix it. People dont seem to understand reactive play nor taking advantage of pre emptive timings, apparently to 85% of this thread there is no good unit composition avaliable to deal with 1-1-1 (These are probably the guys letting them siege in their nautral and then proceeding to attack down a small ramp then complaining)
1-1-1 is definently a strong build, maybe a bit to strong but far from unbeatable, speaking as a high masters Protoss I can say that this build really isent as bad as this thread is making it out to be. People seem to forget that all inning is always easier for the attacker in most cases, and honestly when you do 1 Base to defend this the terrans mistakes are suddenly alot more damaging to his game due to the fact that you are limiting his chance of success.
It seems people love to cling to flavor of the month imbalances just to satisfy their inflated egos and hop on the bandwagon base said imbalance of sloppy games by pro Protoss players.
Masters Protoss in NA is only diamond level protoss in Korea. I am happy to arrange a Master level Korean Terran player while it is being streamed you and him can have multiple matches. If you are willing to call my efforts to translate, which would have of helped some people to gain insights of Korean ladder, an inflated ego - you are pretty disrespectful.
If you really wish to do so im down for it, Im not disagreeing that Korea is a much higher skill level overall but it dosen't change the fact that whinning about a build being easier to execute accomplishes nothing, the only reason people think its easier to execute is because they are trying to play against the odds by doing risky expansions. I mean both Wolf and have Artosis have clearly stated that if you build a Nexus against this build you will lose unless you play perfectly and hope that the terran messes up.
Sounds to me the bulk of the toss population is being meta gamed hard and instead of adapting there play they are crying for nerfs.
This 1/1/1 build seems to be designed to out tech the standard toss play and hit them before there normal timings take effect.
Sounds to me exactly what the zerg population always complained about, so how about take your own advice and try new things.. or more bluntly learn to play.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZafQg.png)
