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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 12:13 Haydin wrote:WOW. No clue if that's the only/optimal version of the anti 1-1-1 build but that was pretty sweet. I think Tyler called this one. More units/production structures early looks like it may be the way to go. Does anyone know who that korean protoss is?
Watched it. No raven and PDD. Some of them don't even pull SCVs. The first game built a CC for goodness sake.
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Oh look, a TL thread discussing the strong 1-1-1 all in build and potential strategies to beat it.
The OP is interesting, I hope this thread turns ok instead of idiots pissing in the wind with each other for 30 pages as per usual when 'Sc2 Strategy' is discussed here.
Don't be silly SecondChance; don't be silly.
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On August 22 2011 12:07 mrsaturn wrote:
there is no imbalance here, you counter this build with SCOUTING, forcefields, a couple immortals, stalkers, and bunch of zealots, preferably with charge but not demanded.
you do not counter this with expanding. expanding is never the _counter_ to anything, especially tech units.
you do not counter this with 1 base collosus, normally there isnt enough time to get them and have any other army, unless its a really late 1-1-1, and youre still gonna need immortals.
you do not counter this with sticking on basic gateway mix and hoping for the best.
there will be no nerfs or buffs, but there will be a lot of protoss players losing until they crawl out of the box they play inside.
care to explain how? rofl
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5003 Posts
On August 22 2011 12:13 Haydin wrote:WOW. No clue if that's the only/optimal version of the anti 1-1-1 build but that was pretty sweet. Anyone know who this korean is? Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I think Tyler called this one :D
Apparently the build doesn't work against good Terrans. Once the Terran knows what you're up to (scan, banshee scout, whatever) they'll just expand and come back with a bigger army. The build fails miserably against anything that's not 1/1/1.
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The extra Chronoboost on units is aHUGE help in holding it off too.
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On August 22 2011 12:18 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:13 Haydin wrote:WOW. No clue if that's the only/optimal version of the anti 1-1-1 build but that was pretty sweet. Anyone know who this korean is? On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I think Tyler called this one :D Apparently the build doesn't work against good Terrans. Once the Terran knows what you're up to (scan, banshee scout, whatever) they'll just expand and come back with a bigger army. The build fails miserably against anything that's not 1/1/1.
You know your stuff, in KR it is called 3/1/1.
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On August 22 2011 12:18 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:13 Haydin wrote:WOW. No clue if that's the only/optimal version of the anti 1-1-1 build but that was pretty sweet. Anyone know who this korean is? On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I think Tyler called this one :D Apparently the build doesn't work against good Terrans. Once the Terran knows what you're up to (scan, banshee scout, whatever) they'll just expand and come back with a bigger army. The build fails miserably against anything that's not 1/1/1.
Agree with Milkis here and it goes way back to the OP that says the counters to the 1-1-1 leave the protoss vulnerable to other terran builds the moment the terran scouts what's going on.
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On August 22 2011 12:18 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:13 Haydin wrote:WOW. No clue if that's the only/optimal version of the anti 1-1-1 build but that was pretty sweet. Anyone know who this korean is? On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I think Tyler called this one :D Apparently the build doesn't work against good Terrans. Once the Terran knows what you're up to (scan, banshee scout, whatever) they'll just expand and come back with a bigger army. The build fails miserably against anything that's not 1/1/1.
Well there's still time to develop. If Terran is expanding, wouldn't that be a good time to poke and expand also? With two observers and collosi it shouldn't be hard to poke even the high ground and secure your expansion and some kind of lead. Just seems like Terran is ahead of the curve..
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The problem I have with saying that the 1-1-1 is a reaction to a toss FE is that it seems to be more effective if the toss doesn't FE. When the 1-1-1 finally hits the toss is relying on the ability to quickly warp in more troops as quickly as possible and he needs the extra base to get those troops and keep immortal production up.
Also if I don't FE I'm almost inviting the terran to try botteling me up inside my main with his tanks. I'd rather take my chances with a FE and hope I can just out produce him as we go on. From a personal standpoint, I play in low masters and this build has completely scared me off the ladder. There is always room to improve and get better but I never feel safe at any point when I see the wall off start. Even if I scout it early I still know it has a very good chance of killing me.
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On August 22 2011 12:18 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:13 Haydin wrote:WOW. No clue if that's the only/optimal version of the anti 1-1-1 build but that was pretty sweet. Anyone know who this korean is? On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I think Tyler called this one :D Apparently the build doesn't work against good Terrans. Once the Terran knows what you're up to (scan, banshee scout, whatever) they'll just expand and come back with a bigger army. The build fails miserably against anything that's not 1/1/1.
mmmm. If you 1 gate robo into Nexus you can get an obs out and scout if the 1/1/1 is coming, if it is you can get a bunch of gates, and hold the all-in with zealot/immortal (warping in extra stalkers when most of the tanks/marines are wiped out). If it doesn't turn out to be the 1/1/1 you're soundly ahead. At least that's how I've been playing it, but once again, I feel like the skill gap between mid/high masters and top level korean GM might change that. Not sure though.
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5003 Posts
On August 22 2011 12:21 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:18 Milkis wrote:On August 22 2011 12:13 Haydin wrote:WOW. No clue if that's the only/optimal version of the anti 1-1-1 build but that was pretty sweet. Anyone know who this korean is? On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I think Tyler called this one :D Apparently the build doesn't work against good Terrans. Once the Terran knows what you're up to (scan, banshee scout, whatever) they'll just expand and come back with a bigger army. The build fails miserably against anything that's not 1/1/1. Well there's still time to develop. If Terran is expanding, wouldn't that be a good time to poke and expand also? With two observers and collosi it shouldn't be hard to poke even the high ground and secure your expansion and some kind of lead. Just seems like Terran is ahead of the curve..
Dunno, I asked Alicia and he's pretty convinced there's nothing Protoss can do against Terran if Terran doesn't make a mechanical mistake and know the optimal ways of dealing with Protoss reactions.
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On August 22 2011 12:07 mrsaturn wrote:
there is no imbalance here, you counter this build with SCOUTING, forcefields, a couple immortals, stalkers, and bunch of zealots, preferably with charge but not demanded.
you do not counter this with expanding. expanding is never the _counter_ to anything, especially tech units.
you do not counter this with 1 base collosus, normally there isnt enough time to get them and have any other army, unless its a really late 1-1-1, and youre still gonna need immortals.
you do not counter this with sticking on basic gateway mix and hoping for the best.
there will be no nerfs or buffs, but there will be a lot of protoss players losing until they crawl out of the box they play inside.
More uneducated people. The push hits at 9:00. Nexus off an FE finishes at the latest at 6:40. So from here we have 140+ seconds to pay for the nexus, and set up production.
You can either take my word for it, or else do it yourself.
1gate FE can have 4 gate robo with a 5th on the way in time for this push, with just enough workers to produce off it all. Nexus first you could get 5gates, a robo and a 3rd gas in time for this push. What can you produce off one base that will match this?
Can people who have no fucking clue not say that expanding isn't the counter because the only one base play that doesn't get totally screwed by 1/1/1 is phoenix, and opening phoenix is risky against a ton of other terran openings. Opening 1gaterobogate relies on your opponent making mistakes, which quite frankly, apart from forgetting siegemode/sieging tanks aren't gameending.
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On August 22 2011 12:22 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:18 Milkis wrote:On August 22 2011 12:13 Haydin wrote:WOW. No clue if that's the only/optimal version of the anti 1-1-1 build but that was pretty sweet. Anyone know who this korean is? On August 22 2011 06:03 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
Something like this was a possibility ever since so many protoss players began to rely on 15nexus and 1gate expand. I've never understood the economic necessity of expanding so soon. 1gate robo and 1gate star (for phoenix) builds can yield economically sound mid games without sacrificing early game information. I don't think there is such an economic necessity. I think protoss players saw that they could get away with really early expansions and so they did it. Now it's back to being a coinflip like it ought to be. Rushing to gather information remains the most reliable way to get to mid game on even ground or to win outright against opponents not intending to enter mid game. Of course, this requires perfect use of the information, so it is a more difficult way to play until all the necessary knowledge has been discovered, at which point it makes all the things it counters absolutely obsolete. I imagine 1-1-1 is one such thing. I think Tyler called this one :D Apparently the build doesn't work against good Terrans. Once the Terran knows what you're up to (scan, banshee scout, whatever) they'll just expand and come back with a bigger army. The build fails miserably against anything that's not 1/1/1. mmmm. If you 1 gate robo into Nexus you can get an obs out and scout if the 1/1/1 is coming, if it is you can cancel, get a bunch of gates, and hold the all-in with zealot/immortal (warping in extra stalkers when most of the tanks/marines are wiped out). If it doesn't turn out to be the 1/1/1 you're soundly ahead. At least that's how I've been playing it, but once again, I feel like the skill gap between mid/high masters and top level korean GM might change that. Not sure though.
exactly. if it isn't 1/1/1 you can pressure with units and be ahead even if the terran expands.
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Sweden164 Posts
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly. In fact, nexus first is pretty bad against it in my opinion, unless the map is huge. If the Terran scouts it he can make a super fast tank + 8 marines or so and 3-4 scvs and attack right when you get warp gates (protoss will have like 4 stalkers 1 zealot and 30 seconds until more units because warp gate will be so delayed). Terran builds bunkers and reinforces.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way.
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On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way.
I'd agree with this. Even though I think the 1/1/1 is very strong with little effort I feel like it'll end up becoming a holdable build after a while. 6/7 gate blink +2 was killing zergs everywhere until they learned exactly how to stop it.
As it is now though, the 1/1/1 is basically free ladder points against a good number of toss.
With that being said, what openers do you feel hold the 1/1/1 most easily from the toss? Like I mentioned earlier I've had the most success with 1gate robo, but I'm curious on your experiences with it.
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On August 22 2011 12:24 Thorzain wrote:
Regarding the games between MC and Puma yesterday (Since I think that many people saw that and went "IMBA!!", I think that MC should have won both games. The first game he lost because he lost his initial observer and hence wasn't aware that Puma did not fall back on an expand but rather wanted to do a 2nd push. MC made probes and started teching instead of making units.
In the 3rd game, Phoenix chargelots are regarded a pretty good counter to 1-1-1. But instead, MC decided to go for phoenix + mass stalkers with blink and aim for a base race scenario with a hidden expansion. Stalkers are shit vs 1-1-1 all in. He also invested a lot of resources in DTs.
1-1-1 is definitely strong but it is holdable with other builds than 1 base, 1 gate expo or nexus first if you play it correctly.
I think that 1-1-1 all in will work as 4 gate /DTs / 6 gate eventually when Protoss players knows the best ways to fend it off. It's a strat that you always have to keep in mind. If you prepare against it you'll most likely defend it, but you can't be sure if it's coming so if it's not coming you have invested resources in the wrong area.
Terran needs to build bunkers and turrets whenever we're expanding just in case 4 gate, DTs or whatever comes our way.
This is very insightful thanks for the post Thorzain!
Alicia seems to think differently however I hope you are right.
/snide remark about bunkers being refundable =p
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I think the most frustrating thing is the general community response to this entire debacle.
Zergs have problems with 5-rax reaper rush -- Reapers are nerfed hard.
Zergs have problems with 2-rax openings -- Bunkers are nerfed.
Zergs have problems with air-openings -- Spore Crawler root timing is decreased.
Zergs have problems with 2-gate openings -- Zealot build time nerfed.
Zergs have problems with Blink-Stalker all-ins -- Fungal Growth changed to stop Blink.
Zergs have problems with various early-game pressure / all-ins -- Roach range increased to 4.
Terrans have problems with Voidray harass / contain / all-in builds -- Voidrays are nerfed hard.
Protoss have problems with 4-gate v 4-gate in PvP -- Warp-gate nerfed, Pylon power range nerfed.
Protoss / Zerg have problems with stim-timing pushes -- Stim research nerfed.
Blizzard has shown time and time again that in a game that has yet to reach meta-game stability and strategic maturity that if the margin of error is too thin on the defender's side and the execution too easy on the aggressor's side, adjustments are made. Yet...
Protoss have problems with 1/1/1 -- DEAL WITH IT
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On August 22 2011 12:16 Reborn58 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 11:58 Astro-Penguin wrote:On August 22 2011 11:52 CryingPoo wrote:On August 22 2011 11:44 Astro-Penguin wrote:
I dont know why i even bother to post in these threads, everyone just cries instead of looking on mistakes they make and how they can fix it. People dont seem to understand reactive play nor taking advantage of pre emptive timings, apparently to 85% of this thread there is no good unit composition avaliable to deal with 1-1-1 (These are probably the guys letting them siege in their nautral and then proceeding to attack down a small ramp then complaining)
1-1-1 is definently a strong build, maybe a bit to strong but far from unbeatable, speaking as a high masters Protoss I can say that this build really isent as bad as this thread is making it out to be. People seem to forget that all inning is always easier for the attacker in most cases, and honestly when you do 1 Base to defend this the terrans mistakes are suddenly alot more damaging to his game due to the fact that you are limiting his chance of success.
It seems people love to cling to flavor of the month imbalances just to satisfy their inflated egos and hop on the bandwagon base said imbalance of sloppy games by pro Protoss players. Masters Protoss in NA is only diamond level protoss in Korea. I am happy to arrange a Master level Korean Terran player while it is being streamed you and him can have multiple matches. If you are willing to call my efforts to translate, which would have of helped some people to gain insights of Korean ladder, an inflated ego - you are pretty disrespectful. If you really wish to do so im down for it, Im not disagreeing that Korea is a much higher skill level overall but it dosen't change the fact that whinning about a build being easier to execute accomplishes nothing, the only reason people think its easier to execute is because they are trying to play against the odds by doing risky expansions. I mean both Wolf and have Artosis have clearly stated that if you build a Nexus against this build you will lose unless you play perfectly and hope that the terran messes up. Ok, seriously....did anyone that is posting in this thread even read the OP? The OP clearly and correctly states that the EARLIER THE EXPAND THE BETTER CHANCE OF HOLDING AGAINST THIS PUSH. There is little to know way to hold this push by one basing if the terran executes properly. And if you 2 gate robo, or stargate open then you are so far behind on the expand that you cannot expand and hold the nexus. That is what Artosis is referring to.
Ive read the op, I disagree with it, and i stated why, just because its in the "op" dosent make it right, perhaps you are right perhaps your wrong, im just arguing my point and trying to articulate it to the best of my ability.
My personal belief/preference is that 1 Base is more strongly suited to defending it, by expoing you are forced into an Immortal/Gateway composition which I feel dosen't work very well against a properly executed 1-1-1, by doing 1 Base you are on even footing and are able to push his force back and take it into a macro game.
Perhaps I should elbaroate, with 1 base colossi you can stall his push out by engaging him before he gets to your base, force him to siege up consistantly and try to force a PDD, it buys you alot of time for more colossi and stalkers and ETL, if you simply let him come to your ramp then you will be in an unfavourable position if you try to move out at later point and thus you will get the bad end of the trade.
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This is a perfect example of how to beat a bad terran player..... This terran didn't float his buildings when grubby had nothing to kill them if they were in the corner of the map.....
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EPT
