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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 10:16 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:10 Jumbled wrote:On August 22 2011 10:08 Nibbler89 wrote:
From what I've seen 1 gas 4 gate warp prism and 1 gas 4gate one voidray where their strategy is to warp units directly into the base works quite well against 1-1-1 and in general is a strong build. The timing comes before the terran has enough units to hold without the bunker for protection.
Is there a reason why this strategy is rarely used? 1 gas void ray? What kind of games have you been watching? It's gas first vr + 4 gate off 1 gas. It hits a full minute earlier than 3 gate vr and is way stronger. People are just stupid and still do 3 gate vr with 2 gas. Oh and gas first vr 4 gate vs 1-1-1 is pretty much a BO win. Just saying to all the people struggling with 1-1-1.
This is pretty much what I was thinking, it's actually incredibly hard to hold to the point where if the terran didn't go viking first from port he'll probably lose but since it's 1 gas it's hard to tell that its VR coming. Glad at least someone else knows of this build. Like I said , I don't know why it's so rarely used when it's practically turning the tables on the 1-1-1.
I rarely see this strategy even brought up when discussing 1-1-1 so I feel at the very least not all the options are being truly explored.(I'm sure someone who has never heard of this build or tried it or seen it will tell me why it won't work though, or it will continue to be ignored as a powerful counter.)
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On August 22 2011 10:14 Akamu wrote:
I've had countless people rage at me for using the 1-1-1. I love it. Its a great build that with good control can do a lot of damage. I use it all game (in the sense that i keep that ratio of tech buildings) because i HATE bio. It's not imbalanced. It's strong and is designed to punish what everyone is trying to do. Which is a greedy fast expo.
However. I've played a few people that trash the build even with a fast expo... how you ask? cutting probe production. Seriously. If you've been using your chrono on probes your way ahead in the worker count. They then procede to go into 4gate and robo. It's ridic just how many units you can pump out of 4 gates and a robo when you stop making probes and chrono the buildings. Think about it... everytime you make 2 probes (one out of each nexus) that's 1 less zealot you have. What's the best counter to the 1-1-1? Heavy zealots. People need to spend less time bitching and more time trying to find neat lil things such as this to roflstomp the "imba" 1-1-1.
I guess you didn't watch the finals. MC had double the worker count of Puma after he defended the first wave and he still lost. He got zealots and charge btw. But he didn't have enough stalkers. The 3 cloaked banshees destroyed the stalkers and zealots while the marines cleaned up.
I wish people would stop using anecdotal experience when it's clear considering that in the EU scene the top players are still Protoss and that in Korea it is Terran, discussing your own league to the Korean pros is laughable. Even those replays posted above, had a sub-par build of the 1-1-1. One of the major components missing was the PDD.
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On August 22 2011 10:10 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:04 HaruRH wrote:On August 22 2011 09:56 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 09:52 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 09:49 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 09:43 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 09:31 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 09:25 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 09:23 Gentso wrote:
Man this game has been out for a year. This is just another imbalance "FOTM". It'll be solved soon(ish). I haven't played in forever but it seems like Protoss might want to start opening with stargate for now. How is it FOTM when TSL Rain beat NSP Genius to get to the finals? And Jinro beat TTOne to win MLG? Protoss actually had the tools back then to counter it. Protoss already KNEW the counter. It was taken away from us due to nerfs. It's FOTM because it's what everyone is doing right now. What nerfs are you referring to? Warpgate research time? I feel like in a month or so nobody will consider this to be OP anymore. FOTM means it was something recent and temporary when in fact, this strategy has been used before. It stopped being used because it was vulnerable to 3-gate voidray or even 4-gate. Both have been nerfed. No other race can open with all 3 tech trees, be safe and still be effective. Even in early SC2, Day9 commented on his daily how strange this concept was when compared to BW. The world flavor in that acronym is why I call it FOTM. The fact that it's popular right now is why it's FOTM. If it's been around so long why is it suddenly OP? People think so because Terran players have gotten better. Just wait, Protoss will learn to defeat it... I'm sure some people said the same about 5 rax reaper. I'd wager 1/1/1 boasts similar or greater winrates. No, 5 rax reaper was a much different situation. Virtually everyone agreed it was imbalanced and it was patched quite quickly. The thing about 5 reaper is the power of it. It is very imbalanced. However, 1/1/1 works differently. It is like giving a Terran a bulletproof vest. Able to stop all protoss all ins? Check. Able to punish an expanding toss anytime they want while still 100% safe from counters? Check. Able to crush a toss early on? Check. Able to transition into any build they want after a failed 1/1/1 push with little to no setbacks? Check. Able to push once more with another 1/1/1 after a failed attempt? Check. So in comparison, how is 1/1/1 different from 5 rax reaper? In fact, it is many times stronger. Zergs thought the same exact way against 3 gate expand from Protoss for a while.
3gate expo doesn't grant the ability to kill zerg unless the zerg built a 3rd before 6 minutes, or droned to 50 without making units or a shitton of spines. Also, 3gate pressure with sentries is incredibly risky. If you lose the sentries, without dealing critical damage to the zerg, you might as well just gg and leave the game because those sentries are priceless. Terran can allin multiple times and each one is just as powerful. In the case of 3gate pressure, only the first wave with a lot of sentry energy is really that scary.
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i am happy we can have a reasonably civil discussion about balance. on matters of balance, i will always defer to the professionals. us laymen can only pretend to know what really goes on. if a bunch of koreans from different races say the build is OP, i will agree with them. the most important question: how do we fix it? i am sure dayvie is hard at work...
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Protoss has to make a choice. Either you play 1 base robo, and hope Terran makes a mistake, or you 1 gate FE, and sac your natural if you scout 1/1/1. MC did it right, but for some reason he didn't sac his expo again the second time (which would have been fine, he was ahead in probes) and got charge (didn't wait for it to finish) instead of Colossi tech, which I think would have been better.
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On August 22 2011 10:11 MrRicewife wrote:
How come nobody uses static defense against this? I feel like a couple cannons would do very well against the back and forth dancing? Marine count would be a lot lower and banshees would take a lot more hits.
It's difficult to express just how bad an idea it is to invest in static defence against a siege tank push.
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On August 22 2011 10:18 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:13 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 10:10 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 10:04 HaruRH wrote:On August 22 2011 09:56 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 09:52 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 09:49 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 09:43 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 09:31 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 09:25 kheldorin wrote:
[quote]
How is it FOTM when TSL Rain beat NSP Genius to get to the finals? And Jinro beat TTOne to win MLG? Protoss actually had the tools back then to counter it.
Protoss already KNEW the counter. It was taken away from us due to nerfs. It's FOTM because it's what everyone is doing right now. What nerfs are you referring to? Warpgate research time? I feel like in a month or so nobody will consider this to be OP anymore. FOTM means it was something recent and temporary when in fact, this strategy has been used before. It stopped being used because it was vulnerable to 3-gate voidray or even 4-gate. Both have been nerfed. No other race can open with all 3 tech trees, be safe and still be effective. Even in early SC2, Day9 commented on his daily how strange this concept was when compared to BW. The world flavor in that acronym is why I call it FOTM. The fact that it's popular right now is why it's FOTM. If it's been around so long why is it suddenly OP? People think so because Terran players have gotten better. Just wait, Protoss will learn to defeat it... I'm sure some people said the same about 5 rax reaper. I'd wager 1/1/1 boasts similar or greater winrates. No, 5 rax reaper was a much different situation. Virtually everyone agreed it was imbalanced and it was patched quite quickly. The thing about 5 reaper is the power of it. It is very imbalanced. However, 1/1/1 works differently. It is like giving a Terran a bulletproof vest. Able to stop all protoss all ins? Check. Able to punish an expanding toss anytime they want while still 100% safe from counters? Check. Able to crush a toss early on? Check. Able to transition into any build they want after a failed 1/1/1 push with little to no setbacks? Check. Able to push once more with another 1/1/1 after a failed attempt? Check. So in comparison, how is 1/1/1 different from 5 rax reaper? In fact, it is many times stronger. Zergs thought the same exact way against 3 gate expand from Protoss for a while. This post. It make's no sense. Ok let me explain it to you. For a while, Zergs believed that 3 gate expand was like the guy said, 'a bulletproof vest'. Safe from all ins (or so they thought for a WHILE), able to punish, able to crush, and transition and push more. There was that long period of time where if a Protoss did this build the Zerg would be behind (or equal) economically and believe they would be behind if they didn't stop it. It's wasn;t an instant GG like people make 1/1/1 to be but it certainly was thought of as a 'bulletproof vest'.
So you've taken the semantics of the term "a bullet proof vest" and stretched it almost as far as it could possibly go. 1-1-1 = 3gate? wut?
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On August 22 2011 10:23 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:11 MrRicewife wrote:
How come nobody uses static defense against this? I feel like a couple cannons would do very well against the back and forth dancing? Marine count would be a lot lower and banshees would take a lot more hits.
It's difficult to express just how bad an idea it is to invest in static defence against a siege tank push.
This made me laugh quite a bit!
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On August 22 2011 10:20 Nibbler89 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:16 Validity wrote:On August 22 2011 10:10 Jumbled wrote:On August 22 2011 10:08 Nibbler89 wrote:
From what I've seen 1 gas 4 gate warp prism and 1 gas 4gate one voidray where their strategy is to warp units directly into the base works quite well against 1-1-1 and in general is a strong build. The timing comes before the terran has enough units to hold without the bunker for protection.
Is there a reason why this strategy is rarely used? 1 gas void ray? What kind of games have you been watching? It's gas first vr + 4 gate off 1 gas. It hits a full minute earlier than 3 gate vr and is way stronger. People are just stupid and still do 3 gate vr with 2 gas. Oh and gas first vr 4 gate vs 1-1-1 is pretty much a BO win. Just saying to all the people struggling with 1-1-1. This is pretty much what I was thinking, it's actually incredibly hard to hold to the point where if the terran didn't go viking first from port he'll probably lose but since it's 1 gas it's hard to tell that its VR coming. Glad at least someone else knows of this build. Like I said , I don't know why it's so rarely used when it's practically turning the tables on the 1-1-1. I rarely see this strategy even brought up when discussing 1-1-1 so I feel at the very least not all the options are being truly explored.(I'm sure someone who has never heard of this build or tried it or seen it will tell me why it won't work though, or it will continue to be ignored as a powerful counter.)
Didn't MC use it a lot pre-warp gate nerf? He basically put a pylon near the cliff and use the void ray as vision to warp units in. Even then MKP with a fast expo just barely failed to hold the rush since he kept getting supply blocked. I'd imagine a 1-1-1 would have an easier time holding it with reactor marines. Puma's opening with cloak banshee would also do a lot of damage to this build since there are no observers.
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On August 22 2011 10:28 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:20 Nibbler89 wrote:On August 22 2011 10:16 Validity wrote:On August 22 2011 10:10 Jumbled wrote:On August 22 2011 10:08 Nibbler89 wrote:
From what I've seen 1 gas 4 gate warp prism and 1 gas 4gate one voidray where their strategy is to warp units directly into the base works quite well against 1-1-1 and in general is a strong build. The timing comes before the terran has enough units to hold without the bunker for protection.
Is there a reason why this strategy is rarely used? 1 gas void ray? What kind of games have you been watching? It's gas first vr + 4 gate off 1 gas. It hits a full minute earlier than 3 gate vr and is way stronger. People are just stupid and still do 3 gate vr with 2 gas. Oh and gas first vr 4 gate vs 1-1-1 is pretty much a BO win. Just saying to all the people struggling with 1-1-1. This is pretty much what I was thinking, it's actually incredibly hard to hold to the point where if the terran didn't go viking first from port he'll probably lose but since it's 1 gas it's hard to tell that its VR coming. Glad at least someone else knows of this build. Like I said , I don't know why it's so rarely used when it's practically turning the tables on the 1-1-1. I rarely see this strategy even brought up when discussing 1-1-1 so I feel at the very least not all the options are being truly explored.(I'm sure someone who has never heard of this build or tried it or seen it will tell me why it won't work though, or it will continue to be ignored as a powerful counter.) Didn't MC use it a lot pre-warp gate nerf? He basically put a pylon near the cliff and use the void ray as vision to warp units in. Even then MKP with a fast expo just barely failed to hold the rush since he kept getting supply blocked. I'd imagine a 1-1-1 would have an easier time holding it with reactor marines. Puma's opening with cloak banshee would also do a lot of damage to this build since there are no observers.
It wasn't the same build it's a different build order which as pointed out by previous poster is not nearly as strong and doesn't come as early. The timing that it hits at I believe you actually have less marines then with a 1 rax expand into 3 rax as the reactor build time cuts marines for quite awhile and then its basically 2 rax marine production.
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It's funny how Tyler comes here, shares his thoughts on this ,and everyone ignores him and continues with their pointless speculating. It's funny that 3/4 of the ppl posting here aren't even master league.
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On August 22 2011 10:30 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's funny how Tyler comes here, shares his thoughts on this ,and everyone ignores him and continues with their pointless speculating. It's funny that 3/4 of the ppl posting here aren't even master league.
Thank you, a voice of reason among the rabble!
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On August 22 2011 10:30 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's funny how Tyler comes here, shares his thoughts on this ,and everyone ignores him and continues with their pointless speculating. It's funny that 3/4 of the ppl posting here aren't even master league.
that's why whenever we have balance threads, only pros should post...
anyways. looks like its time to learn a new tvp build XD
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On August 22 2011 10:18 drgonzhere wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:11 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 10:09 drgonzhere wrote:
I just don't think you can dispute the fact that the only reason this build works, is because protoss players have gotten so greedy they think they can blindly 1 gate fe.
1 gate robo is by far the safest way to play vs Terran regardless of openings. People treat information like its not a resource, when in reality its more important than minerals or gas. Its a difficult build to counter because you have to HARD COUNTER it, you can't try to counter it while still trying to cut corners.
It seems all too obvious to me that you NEED to have colossi out to deal with it. That you NEED to have a lot of zealots. That you NEED to meet it in the middle of the map. And Hell it will still be hard.
I haven't seen a game yet where all of these criteria have been met, so until then I am not willing to call this build "imbalanced". Actually you can dispute it and that's what this whole thread is, so presumably you completely skippped the op. 1 gate FE is the best chance. Stop with the protoss greedy crap. It doesn't apply here. Alright I'll trust a top American protoss player who has been playing Starcraft 1&2 at a higher level than you ever will for ten years of his life than over you who is taking information from an OP on faith when it gives no reasons at all. Perhaps 1 Gate FE is fine if you get hallucination. Stop with the protoss whiny crap. It doesn't belong on TL.
Sorry I will trust the korean pros like IMMVP and team houses over a foreign player who has admittedly not been practicing much as of late. No disrespect to Tyler, but does he honestly think the solutions he is proposing haven't already been investigated among these korean teams, and at a greater level of refinement than he is currently capable of? Do you really want to see 23 terrans in Code S and 3 protoss before you are willing to admit there may be an issue?
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It is up to the Pros to figure out how to solve this.
And to solve this will mean some insane build order that incorporates a fast expo
So either way if this gets solved then I get to steal a sick new build order and if it gets nerfed then back to business as usual :D
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On August 22 2011 10:30 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's funny how Tyler comes here, shares his thoughts on this ,and everyone ignores him and continues with their pointless speculating. It's funny that 3/4 of the ppl posting here aren't even master league.
Except Tyler probably hasn't even played most of the top Korean Ts in the past couple months, let alone beat them.
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On August 22 2011 10:34 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:18 drgonzhere wrote:On August 22 2011 10:11 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 10:09 drgonzhere wrote:
I just don't think you can dispute the fact that the only reason this build works, is because protoss players have gotten so greedy they think they can blindly 1 gate fe.
1 gate robo is by far the safest way to play vs Terran regardless of openings. People treat information like its not a resource, when in reality its more important than minerals or gas. Its a difficult build to counter because you have to HARD COUNTER it, you can't try to counter it while still trying to cut corners.
It seems all too obvious to me that you NEED to have colossi out to deal with it. That you NEED to have a lot of zealots. That you NEED to meet it in the middle of the map. And Hell it will still be hard.
I haven't seen a game yet where all of these criteria have been met, so until then I am not willing to call this build "imbalanced". Actually you can dispute it and that's what this whole thread is, so presumably you completely skippped the op. 1 gate FE is the best chance. Stop with the protoss greedy crap. It doesn't apply here. Alright I'll trust a top American protoss player who has been playing Starcraft 1&2 at a higher level than you ever will for ten years of his life than over you who is taking information from an OP on faith when it gives no reasons at all. Perhaps 1 Gate FE is fine if you get hallucination. Stop with the protoss whiny crap. It doesn't belong on TL. Sorry I will trust the korean pros like IMMVP and team houses over a foreign player who has admittedly not been practicing much as of late. No disrespect to Tyler, but does he honestly think the solutions he is proposing haven't already been investigated among these korean teams, and at a greater level of refinement than he is currently capable of? Do you really want to see 23 terrans in Code S and 3 protoss before you are willing to admit there may be an issue?
Seconded.
Quoting the Korean community:
"We need to only send Terrans to the foreign tournaments. Those foreign kids still don't have things straight. They need to watch more TvT"
"Foreign fans can't even read the games so they're acting like the Terran played well lololol. That's why Blizzard can't Patch"
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On August 22 2011 10:30 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's funny how Tyler comes here, shares his thoughts on this ,and everyone ignores him and continues with their pointless speculating. It's funny that 3/4 of the ppl posting here aren't even master league.
I like to do a gas steal, for the most part it atleast slows down what they are doing.. Shitty masters player here.
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On August 22 2011 10:18 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:13 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 10:10 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 10:04 HaruRH wrote:On August 22 2011 09:56 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 09:52 Jinivus wrote:On August 22 2011 09:49 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 09:43 kheldorin wrote:On August 22 2011 09:31 Gentso wrote:On August 22 2011 09:25 kheldorin wrote:
[quote]
How is it FOTM when TSL Rain beat NSP Genius to get to the finals? And Jinro beat TTOne to win MLG? Protoss actually had the tools back then to counter it.
Protoss already KNEW the counter. It was taken away from us due to nerfs. It's FOTM because it's what everyone is doing right now. What nerfs are you referring to? Warpgate research time? I feel like in a month or so nobody will consider this to be OP anymore. FOTM means it was something recent and temporary when in fact, this strategy has been used before. It stopped being used because it was vulnerable to 3-gate voidray or even 4-gate. Both have been nerfed. No other race can open with all 3 tech trees, be safe and still be effective. Even in early SC2, Day9 commented on his daily how strange this concept was when compared to BW. The world flavor in that acronym is why I call it FOTM. The fact that it's popular right now is why it's FOTM. If it's been around so long why is it suddenly OP? People think so because Terran players have gotten better. Just wait, Protoss will learn to defeat it... I'm sure some people said the same about 5 rax reaper. I'd wager 1/1/1 boasts similar or greater winrates. No, 5 rax reaper was a much different situation. Virtually everyone agreed it was imbalanced and it was patched quite quickly. The thing about 5 reaper is the power of it. It is very imbalanced. However, 1/1/1 works differently. It is like giving a Terran a bulletproof vest. Able to stop all protoss all ins? Check. Able to punish an expanding toss anytime they want while still 100% safe from counters? Check. Able to crush a toss early on? Check. Able to transition into any build they want after a failed 1/1/1 push with little to no setbacks? Check. Able to push once more with another 1/1/1 after a failed attempt? Check. So in comparison, how is 1/1/1 different from 5 rax reaper? In fact, it is many times stronger. Zergs thought the same exact way against 3 gate expand from Protoss for a while. This post. It make's no sense. Ok let me explain it to you. For a while, Zergs believed that 3 gate expand was like the guy said, 'a bulletproof vest'. Safe from all ins (or so they thought for a WHILE), able to punish, able to crush, and transition and push more. There was that long period of time where if a Protoss did this build the Zerg would be behind (or equal) economically and believe they would be behind if they didn't stop it. It's wasn;t an instant GG like people make 1/1/1 to be but it certainly was thought of as a 'bulletproof vest'.
Seriously, when was that? What could the typical 3 Gate Expand punish, exactly? At most the Protoss could move out to a watchtower with his Sentries and force the Zerg to make some units. Were there honestly any high-level games where a Zerg outright lost to units from 3 Gates after an expansion? Furthermore, the Zerg was ALWAYS ahead by 10-15 workers after a normal opening against a 3 Gate FE. I honestly don't know where you're getting this. :/ I don't even remember any Zergs complaining about 3 Gate Expand during the "Protoss domination" period in PvZ, and God knows they complained about everything back then.
Seriously, how can you even compare it to the 1/1/1. Protosses would 3 Gate Expand because it was safe and versatile with some ability to pressure. However, it was never economically optimal or extremely dangerous offensively.
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On August 22 2011 10:32 drgonzhere wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 10:30 Blizzard_torments_me wrote:
It's funny how Tyler comes here, shares his thoughts on this ,and everyone ignores him and continues with their pointless speculating. It's funny that 3/4 of the ppl posting here aren't even master league. Thank you, a voice of reason among the rabble!
The problem with that is tylers post completely ignores the OP and goes on a tangent about whatever.
The OPs point being that 1-1-1 requires a relatively fast nexus to counter, which leaves you open to other very powerful allins.
Then tyler proceeds to talk about how better scouting would make for safer play, which goes against everything the OP lays out. To make matters worse, he never clearly states how to properly deal with this push when going for such a late nexus.
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EPT
