EPTWhy 1/1/1 is considered to be imbalanced in Korea - Page 29
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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST | ||
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ronpaul012
United States769 Posts
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On August 22 2011 09:56 Gentso wrote: No, 5 rax reaper was a much different situation. Virtually everyone agreed it was imbalanced and it was patched quite quickly. The thing about 5 reaper is the power of it. It is very imbalanced. However, 1/1/1 works differently. It is like giving a Terran a bulletproof vest. Able to stop all protoss all ins? Check. Able to punish an expanding toss anytime they want while still 100% safe from counters? Check. Able to crush a toss early on? Check. Able to transition into any build they want after a failed 1/1/1 push with little to no setbacks? Check. Able to push once more with another 1/1/1 after a failed attempt? Check. So in comparison, how is 1/1/1 different from 5 rax reaper? In fact, it is many times stronger. | ||
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
Is there a reason why this strategy is rarely used? | ||
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drgonzhere
United States447 Posts
1 gate robo is by far the safest way to play vs Terran regardless of openings. People treat information like its not a resource, when in reality its more important than minerals or gas. Its a difficult build to counter because you have to HARD COUNTER it, you can't try to counter it while still trying to cut corners. It seems all too obvious to me that you NEED to have colossi out to deal with it. That you NEED to have a lot of zealots. That you NEED to meet it in the middle of the map. And Hell it will still be hard. I haven't seen a game yet where all of these criteria have been met, so until then I am not willing to call this build "imbalanced". | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:08 Nibbler89 wrote: From what I've seen 1 gas 4 gate warp prism and 1 gas 4gate one voidray where their strategy is to warp units directly into the base works quite well against 1-1-1 and in general is a strong build. The timing comes before the terran has enough units to hold without the bunker for protection. Is there a reason why this strategy is rarely used? 1 gas void ray? What kind of games have you been watching? | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:04 HaruRH wrote: The thing about 5 reaper is the power of it. It is very imbalanced. However, 1/1/1 works differently. It is like giving a Terran a bulletproof vest. Able to stop all protoss all ins? Check. Able to punish an expanding toss anytime they want while still 100% safe from counters? Check. Able to crush a toss early on? Check. Able to transition into any build they want after a failed 1/1/1 push with little to no setbacks? Check. Able to push once more with another 1/1/1 after a failed attempt? Check. So in comparison, how is 1/1/1 different from 5 rax reaper? In fact, it is many times stronger. Zergs thought the same exact way against 3 gate expand from Protoss for a while. | ||
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:09 drgonzhere wrote: I just don't think you can dispute the fact that the only reason this build works, is because protoss players have gotten so greedy they think they can blindly 1 gate fe. 1 gate robo is by far the safest way to play vs Terran regardless of openings. People treat information like its not a resource, when in reality its more important than minerals or gas. Its a difficult build to counter because you have to HARD COUNTER it, you can't try to counter it while still trying to cut corners. It seems all too obvious to me that you NEED to have colossi out to deal with it. That you NEED to have a lot of zealots. That you NEED to meet it in the middle of the map. And Hell it will still be hard. I haven't seen a game yet where all of these criteria have been met, so until then I am not willing to call this build "imbalanced". Actually you can dispute it and that's what this whole thread is, so presumably you completely skippped the op. 1 gate FE is the best chance. Stop with the protoss greedy crap. It doesn't apply here. | ||
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:10 Jumbled wrote: 1 gas void ray? What kind of games have you been watching? It was a strategy used vs slayers dragon in some open tournament he was playing. The protoss was a mid masters protoss and beat dragon when he was going 1-1-1 with it for the reason I listed. So the game I was watching was a mid master protoss beating the supposedly unbeatable build when it was being played by a pro gamer. I believe the protoss name is stealthypoo? there was some drama about suspected stream cheating but I don't really think it was a factor in the loss. He came in with voidray and began warping in units, dragon was forced to unload bunker but didn't have enough forces to hold it off. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:10 Gentso wrote: Zergs thought the same exact way against 3 gate expand from Protoss for a while. ... What? | ||
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FredYuanme
United States30 Posts
What if you could hit a timing while they're teching up and don't have enough defenses? What I'm thinking is to go zealot->sentry->stalker first and get halluc asap. Halluc a phoenix asap and if he's doing a 1/1/1 go for a 4gate blink. I think you could blink into the base (with halluc phoenix) and bypass the bunker that's more or less holding him alive. Would this work? I actually think this could be something we could build off of. Getting hallu first would allow for easy and quick scouting. Possibilites: 1. If you see the 1-1-1, you could maybe switch into blink stalkers and stay on one base. The problem with staying on one base most of the time is because they will contain you, but if tech to blink stalkers, you can't contain blink. Also, you could get enough sentries to contain the terran for a while. 2. Well you might ask, what happens if he actually went 1 rax no gas fe, then with the ability to see high grounds, you could probably harass with pylons and visions from phoenix (using 3-4 gates). Replay: Against AI. It is only a foundation, not a finished product. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-227598.jpg) | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
On August 22 2011 08:32 aksfjh wrote: Even if it IS as unstoppable as people say, I can't think of a conceivable way to "nerf" any aspect of it without drastically altering almost every Terran metagame aspect. Nerfing tanks again would just leave TvZ in shambles and take away a staple timing attack/defense. Nerfing marines would just completely change EVERYTHING to the point where every single matchup would have to be revisited with a fine comb. Nerfing banshees would leave Terrans with another unit like the reaper, except this one would have a stupid expensive upgrade to go along. Nerfing ravens would do the same thing (as if they're not neglected enough already). I agree its going to be quite hard to nerf terran units without causing too big of a change in metagame/builds - which is why I personally prefer a protoss buff rather than a nerf. But anyways, what personally bothers me the most about the 1/1/1 is that even when you defend it cleanly, most of the time you are somehow still only even (or slightly ahead at best) with terran even if he brings out almost half of his SCVs, which really makes no sense to me. A one base all-in with workers that fails should set the player back almost to the point of being irrecoverable, yet its clearly not the case. You still have to play pretty much perfectly to win the game despite superb defense, which doesn't feel right at all. When something has an astounding success rate such as 1/1/1, you would think there should be a massive downside to it, but it doesn't, its a build which has extremely high reward that comes with minimal risk to it. Honestly, I don't see how it can't not be acknowledged as a problem. Even if protoss players start holding it off better (say the success rate goes from 10% to 30%), that still won't stop terrans from doing it because they have 70% shot of instantly winning, and 30% of being even or set behind just a bit. Considering how many TL people always scream for more macro games (see rants on blizzard ladder maps), do people really want to see this one base allin continue on for like forever? Jinro himself said its f*cking boring to keep watching the same 1/1/1 build being constantly used to abuse protoss =/ | ||
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:10 Gentso wrote: Zergs thought the same exact way against 3 gate expand from Protoss for a while. This post. It make's no sense. | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:10 Gentso wrote: Zergs thought the same exact way against 3 gate expand from Protoss for a while. And keep in mind that zergs have versatility while protoss is pretty rigid. | ||
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Akamu
United States309 Posts
However. I've played a few people that trash the build even with a fast expo... how you ask? cutting probe production. Seriously. If you've been using your chrono on probes your way ahead in the worker count. They then procede to go into 4gate and robo. It's ridic just how many units you can pump out of 4 gates and a robo when you stop making probes and chrono the buildings. Think about it... everytime you make 2 probes (one out of each nexus) that's 1 less zealot you have. What's the best counter to the 1-1-1? Heavy zealots. People need to spend less time bitching and more time trying to find neat lil things such as this to roflstomp the "imba" 1-1-1. | ||
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:10 Jumbled wrote: 1 gas void ray? What kind of games have you been watching? It's gas first vr + 4 gate off 1 gas. It hits a full minute earlier than 3 gate vr and is way stronger. People are just stupid and still do 3 gate vr with 2 gas. Oh and gas first vr 4 gate vs 1-1-1 is pretty much a BO win. Just saying to all the people struggling with 1-1-1. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
On August 22 2011 09:31 stokes17 wrote: I skimmed the 1st 2 replays (will look at rest in a lil looks promising) basically hes going 1 gate -robo-gate- obs scout- robo bay as soon as he scouts 1-1-1 in both games i saw he was able to get 3 collosi out in time for the push AND meet the army in the middle of the map. I think meeting the army in the map is key because u delay the push by forcing sieges or can even catch the army unseiged and just win. His unit comp is 3 collosi-1 immo- 4 stalkers then pure zealot. Once the engagement occurs he refills with pure stalker. I can't read Korean so idn who this guy is or who he played (beside dreammvp who i believe is Code A) So maybe this guy is onto something? Hopefully someone more skilled than me can at least look at the replays. It didnt appear to me that the terren made any huge blunders. and of course the question of how this build stacks up against the possible range of terren builds is not answered (i assume the 2nd two replays are vs 1/1/1 as well) The guy in the replays is clearly a very good protoss. However, the terran execution was lacking in the first two replays. (im watching # 3 right now). The first replay he built a raven but didnt use it. The second replay he gifted banshee and got no use of his cloak. Okay game 3 had medivac and no banshee game 4 the terrans doing all kinds of random ass shit. He had like 1 banshees 2 viking a medivac, was researching stim. | ||
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Astro-Penguin
554 Posts
On August 22 2011 09:54 Amui wrote: spoilered due to length + Show Spoiler + On August 22 2011 09:36 Astro-Penguin wrote: This is how I am currently dealing with 1-1-1. Standard opening, If i scout that he does not wall off I will sent a chrono boosted zealot and probe into his main and get a free scout basically, from there I react accordingly If i scout that he has walled off I will skip the zealot and chronoboost stalker and pressure a bit, if I cannot scout an guranteed expansion, 2 Rax, 1 Rax FE, gasless expand, and etc I will add a robo for a quck observer (Quicker Robo then most builds) otherwise i will do 1 Gate FE. Now, if I know for certain that it is going to be some sort of 1-1-1 All in or even some sort of Marine/Siege Tank, Banshees, and etc without marauders I react by adding a Twilight Council, 2 Gateways, Followed by a Robo and research Blink, from there I pressure with blink stalkers in his main using my observer for vision, if you can snipe a few of his tech labs and get out then you will have bought yourself tons of time. In the case that I had to add a Robo because I was uncertain of what I saw i will most likely go 1 Base Colossi if I scout 1-1-1 with my observer and even Blink stalkers if I can get a good timing in and still be able to do adequate harassment to make him afraid of moving out. With the blink play you can drastically slow down his push and pump some Immortals off 1 base to deal with the tanks, its important to note as he moves out on the map that you are picking off little chunks of his army as you will. Some maps are obvisouly more optimal for this type of play and generally I feel it is best on bigger maps like Tal Darim. The only thing you have to watch out for is PDD, make him try and waste PDD before you ever engage or if you can snipe his raven as he moves out try and do so. Depending on how much damage you do during this small opportunity of harassment within his main you can decide whether or not its safe to expo. Mix in a few sentries for forcefields/Guardian Shield for the big engagement later on. The 1 base colossi response is pretty self explanitory Imo, if you can engae him a good arc before he reaches your ramp then absolutely do so, its important to try and not let him get bunkers in your natural to set up a contain if you can do so. Generally if you played it out right you should come out ahead and be able to bully the terran a bit afterwards and take your natural. Alot of people will say that you will be to far behind if he ends up not doing some sort of all in and is simply expanding, although you'll be behind economically you'll still have a tech advantage, unit advantage with 1 Gate Robo and a fairly slower Nexus, When scouting with an observer if you can find his weakness in his build and expose said weakness with your tech edge then do so.(Forcefield contain, Warp Prism harass, Simple frontal attack pressure to force bunkers, and etc.) I really think the only time these quick expand builds should be used is when you can scout the terrans main with a zealot or some sort of agression and be certain of no 3 Rax, 1-1-1, and etc. Blindly doing 1 Gate FE and hoping you can hold an all in is really silly, if your going to fast expand against all ins you might as well Nexus first as you will have a better chance. 1 Gate Robo is a really good build and people should use it more imo, you can expand with it early and cancel the Nexus if you scout something your unsure of being able to hold. At the end of the day people need to realize that expanding against 1-1-1 is dumb, some situations yield expands to be optimal against it but most of the time its not a good idea. People have to remember that the terran is blindly going 1-1-1 and not reacting to what you do, with 1 Base you can just react to his unit composition and counter it and come out ahead with a unit advantage, sure he has mules but if you play everything out right you should be able to come out on top in the engagement and later use your unit composition/number to take an expansion and deny him his own. Basically if you want a guranteed defence against this build you have to accept that the game will transition most of the time and that you will not always be drastically ahead in said transition Play safe and stop crying when you blindly expand and lose to a build designed to punish this, there is no reason to try and fast expand if your unsure of what hes doing. This style is used by alot of good Protoss users such as Tyler, Sage, Artosis (Hehe), Genius (Depending on the day x.x), Puzzle, and etc. Here's the thing. Expanding gives you a shot at holding the push, even though in most cases you have to sacrifice the nexus, you are still in a good situation. If you continue to one base while terran is one basing 1. He has map control via banshees. He'll know if you put down a nexus, proceed to push and roll you. 2. You both mine out main. He lifts to nat, you long distance mine for a nexus, he pushes in 2 minutes and you die anyways. 3. Yes you can play like Tyler does every game and go gaterobogate nexus. Then when your observer gets to their base and you see it was a reactored-marine into expo, the other guy has had his base up for 2 minutes longer than you. Yes you have good scouting info, but you are also playing from behind and need to outplay the opponent to win. Extremely good build if you feel your opponent is inferior, but this isn't the case. 4. Terran is playing safe simply by building a bunker. They can hold EVERY protoss all-in off a 1/1/1, This build gives them an advantage such that even if they don't allin a one-basing protoss, they have 2 techlabs, a reactor, and all 3 production buildings and can transition to everything after throwing down a CC. The equivalent protoss would be having a robo, and either a TC or stargate such that WHILE being 100% safe from any allin, maintaining the ability to punish every expo attempt after obs gets out AND being able to transition into a macro game at even or better. 1. Well your either pressuring or scouting with an observer, if you cant expand then cancel it or just simply dont expand, only time you should expand is if your certain he wont roll you. 2. If he lifts to his natraul your army should come out ahead in the prior engagement and he shouldnt be able to sufficently hold anything, and tbh you shoulden't run out of minerals that quick assuming everyones timing is going well. 3. Again, if you scout something like that you have to examine the weaknesses within what hes doing and expose it the best you can, at this point if he scout a reactor marine build you can just do a 3 Gate Stalker/Sentry push and there is really nothing he will be able to do, he will be forced to retreat to his main while you expand. (Specific situation). 4. People seem to always over estimate bunkers, and honestly if your forcing bunkers then your doing something right. Honestly Terran is definently to flexible in comparision to Protoss but thats a whole different issue imo and blizzard has acknowledged this, the main problem I see is that protoss are unwilling to play without a guranteed win if holding the terrans attack and because of this they are just taking risks instead of being 100% sure they will not die to any sort of push. To me it seems people are just upset that terran can transition out of an all in and protoss cant, its a design flaw I agree there but its not the reason why Protoss are losing to 1-1-1 or various other all ins. | ||
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
Ok let me explain it to you. For a while, Zergs believed that 3 gate expand was like the guy said, 'a bulletproof vest'. Safe from all ins (or so they thought for a WHILE), able to punish, able to crush, and transition and push more. There was that long period of time where if a Protoss did this build the Zerg would be behind (or equal) economically and believe they would be behind if they didn't stop it. It's wasn;t an instant GG like people make 1/1/1 to be but it certainly was thought of as a 'bulletproof vest'. | ||
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drgonzhere
United States447 Posts
On August 22 2011 10:11 Jinivus wrote: Actually you can dispute it and that's what this whole thread is, so presumably you completely skippped the op. 1 gate FE is the best chance. Stop with the protoss greedy crap. It doesn't apply here. Alright I'll trust a top American protoss player who has been playing Starcraft 1&2 at a higher level than you ever will for ten years of his life than over you who is taking information from an OP on faith when it gives no reasons at all. Perhaps 1 Gate FE is fine if you get hallucination. Stop with the protoss whiny crap. It doesn't belong on TL. | ||
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.ppl are tring imortals.even blizzard dont mention vs marines. 
