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On December 07 2013 03:09 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 02:16 plogamer wrote:On December 07 2013 02:04 TheDwf wrote:
Can't you understand this "20+ Zealots" stuff is just an expression? But it is not conducive to good discussion to use hyperbole like that. Anyways, even with a rather big warp-in, say around 10+, it's extremely difficult for Terran to just go and kill the Protoss when they have collosi and storm. Terran also has to micro against the chargelots while the chargelots don't. Micro'ing on two fronts is very difficult. ... That's also an advantage of planetary nexus - that it draws fire and drops need to micro and targetfire probes. ... Seriously, a really simple fix to the planetary nexus would be to change the AI so that it doesn't draw aggro and acts like a regular building. Anyone who really wants the nexus and focus fire it very easily since it's huge - but otherwise they can still punish protoss that skimp on drop defenses, or are out of position. By micro, you mean putting marines on hold position so that they target only the probes near them?
In the mineral line? When Protoss build gateways behind the mineral line, it becomes really hard to position marines so they can't attack the nexus but still hit probes. Maybe I'm wrong here and hold position in the mineral line focuses down probes over the attacking nexus.
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Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
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A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT.
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I enjoyed the post above me, will recommend to friends and family
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On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT.
You're not funny.
/edit
On December 07 2013 06:43 ffadicted wrote:
I enjoyed the post above me, will recommend to friends and family
Except to fellow protoss with huge bias.
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On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT.
At quick glance solid 10/10, but with a closer look 7/10,
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They just should fix protoss deathballing.... protoss strength depends mostly on unit composition and not on tactics/micro/strategy. more specific: toss can counter everything only by having the right composition.
Templars are fine. colossi need to be nerfed, they are the only siegeunit that doesnt need micro. maybe slower movement speed (so kiting would still work very good vs toss army even if colossi are in the mix - stretching the protoss army).
or(and?)
Dont let colossi walk over other units. maybe would fix that stacked deathball?
Any other ideas ?
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On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT.
Its funny, complaining about storm when SC2 storms tickle units compared to Brood War storms
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On December 07 2013 09:52 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT. Its funny, complaining about storm when SC2 storms tickle units compared to Brood War storms
I dare you to imagine how BW storm would do on SC2.
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On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT.
It's funny because you tried so hard to be ironic but still half of your post is ridiculously true.
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On December 07 2013 09:52 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT. Its funny, complaining about storm when SC2 storms tickle units compared to Brood War storms
Isn't casting spells in general a lot easier in SC2 compared to Brood War?
I remember something like that but not sure anymore.
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On December 07 2013 09:52 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT. Its funny, complaining about storm when SC2 storms tickle units compared to Brood War storms
But it is much harder to storm in BW ? Even a bronze league scrub can do blanket storms in SC2 while a-moving his chargelots/archons/collossi.
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On December 07 2013 10:35 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 09:52 Green_25 wrote:On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT. Its funny, complaining about storm when SC2 storms tickle units compared to Brood War storms Isn't casting spells in general a lot easier in SC2 compared to Brood War? I remember something like that but not sure anymore.
storms were hard to use during broodwar. At least that was the case but in sc2 due to smartcasting even beginners can blanket storm.
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Try storming against Taeja, its almost impossible to do effectively.
Not saying they aren't strong, but the best terrans aren't bothered by storms. Mothership core and early all ins are the scary side of Protoss, not storm.
The scaling is bad, and Its unfair on lower level players, but it is what it is. Terran is a harder race to play, you just have to accept these things sometimes.
Do what I do in TvP, blindly counter proxy oracle into two base scv train. Works pretty good.
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On December 07 2013 09:52 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT. Its funny, complaining about storm when SC2 storms tickle units compared to Brood War storms
Pointless comparison, spellcasting was much harder and army density was much lower in BW.
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On December 07 2013 10:46 Green_25 wrote:
Try storming against Taeja, its almost impossible to do effectively.
Not saying they aren't strong, but the best terrans aren't bothered by storms. Mothership core and early all ins are the scary side of Protoss, not storm.
Its unfair on lower level players, but it is what it is. Terran is a harder race to play, you just have to accept these things sometimes.
Do what I do in TvP, blindly counter proxy oracle into two base scv train. Works pretty good.
You brought up BW storm thinking you were a genius. You were wrong. You just have to accept these things sometimes.
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On December 07 2013 09:52 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 06:36 Sabu113 wrote:
Really the fundamental problem with Protoss are the collusus and storm. Too many games are decided by those A move units. Maybe we should decrease the radius of storm so protoss have to micro for a change and place their storms. And the collusus is such a terrible newb unit. Everyone knows games are better with templar.
Plus look at all the buffs toss always gets. They need to fix Medivac boost. It should be even faster because too often we see protoss position their troops to easily respond to any drop. It just looks too easy. With a faster boost terrans will actually be able to do damage with their super expensive drops.
Lastly, Terran needs turrets. Why not have those flame turrets from the campaign be incorporated. Then protoss players can't drop zealots in naked terran bases. The terran MMMM ball is already less cost effective than toss gateway units so we can't split them apart to defend bases. Automated defense would atleast let us buy time. I mean we can't put down turrets because they're so expensive. Warp prisms can just boost past them.
Anyway, I tried not to be hyperbolic so we can have a reasoned discussion. Gom PvP is going to kill StarCraft. Random protoss are winning the WCS KR and season finals and stack tournements like the grand finals.
~
A lot of this nerf talk would sound more reasonable if there was talk about compensatory nerfs/buffs for changes. The core is obviously bad but it's a bandaid over problems which if no one discusses then they are just trying to protect their ladder points or worse push for Gom TvT. Its funny, complaining about storm when SC2 storms tickle units compared to Brood War storms
One of the reasons why people played mech vs P.
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On December 07 2013 10:49 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 10:46 Green_25 wrote:
Try storming against Taeja, its almost impossible to do effectively.
Not saying they aren't strong, but the best terrans aren't bothered by storms. Mothership core and early all ins are the scary side of Protoss, not storm.
Its unfair on lower level players, but it is what it is. Terran is a harder race to play, you just have to accept these things sometimes.
Do what I do in TvP, blindly counter proxy oracle into two base scv train. Works pretty good. You brought up BW storm thinking you were a genius. You were wrong. You just have to accept these things sometimes.
Just like you have to accept that balance changes won't be made around some scrubs' inability to split or use ghosts
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On December 07 2013 10:53 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 10:49 plogamer wrote:On December 07 2013 10:46 Green_25 wrote:
Try storming against Taeja, its almost impossible to do effectively.
Not saying they aren't strong, but the best terrans aren't bothered by storms. Mothership core and early all ins are the scary side of Protoss, not storm.
Its unfair on lower level players, but it is what it is. Terran is a harder race to play, you just have to accept these things sometimes.
Do what I do in TvP, blindly counter proxy oracle into two base scv train. Works pretty good. You brought up BW storm thinking you were a genius. You were wrong. You just have to accept these things sometimes. Just like you have to accept that balances changes won't be made around some scrubs' inability to split or use ghosts
Not doing a very good job of accepting that BW storms are completely incomparable to SC2 storms due to smartcasting. But keep it up. I think you'll get the hang of it.
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On December 07 2013 10:54 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 10:53 Green_25 wrote:On December 07 2013 10:49 plogamer wrote:On December 07 2013 10:46 Green_25 wrote:
Try storming against Taeja, its almost impossible to do effectively.
Not saying they aren't strong, but the best terrans aren't bothered by storms. Mothership core and early all ins are the scary side of Protoss, not storm.
Its unfair on lower level players, but it is what it is. Terran is a harder race to play, you just have to accept these things sometimes.
Do what I do in TvP, blindly counter proxy oracle into two base scv train. Works pretty good. You brought up BW storm thinking you were a genius. You were wrong. You just have to accept these things sometimes. Just like you have to accept that balances changes won't be made around some scrubs' inability to split or use ghosts Not doing a very good job of accepting that BW storms are completely incomparable to SC2 storms due to smartcasting. But keep it up. I think you'll get the hang of it.
Nah, I was just pointing out it was funny. It wasn't a statement about respective balance
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On December 07 2013 10:53 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 10:49 plogamer wrote:On December 07 2013 10:46 Green_25 wrote:
Try storming against Taeja, its almost impossible to do effectively.
Not saying they aren't strong, but the best terrans aren't bothered by storms. Mothership core and early all ins are the scary side of Protoss, not storm.
Its unfair on lower level players, but it is what it is. Terran is a harder race to play, you just have to accept these things sometimes.
Do what I do in TvP, blindly counter proxy oracle into two base scv train. Works pretty good. You brought up BW storm thinking you were a genius. You were wrong. You just have to accept these things sometimes. Just like you have to accept that balance changes won't be made around some scrubs' inability to split or use ghosts
I want you to think of storm this way: Dodging storm causes you to miss crucial seconds of dps, while you do nothing but avoid a spell that takes 2 clicks to cast. It also does ~15-25 damage just for you standing in it for a split second (no one has perfect reaction times or pre-splits perfectly). Then, if there are colossi, you also have to move your vikings out of the way, leaving the colossi free to do damage to your bio while the stalkers take shots at your vikings. It's not the worst part of Protoss, but saying that storm is only good at the lower levels of play is a ridiculous statement that just isn't true.
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EPT
