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On December 06 2013 11:39 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 11:28 bo1b wrote:
Everything about protoss is frustrating to play against. Unless I have like 5 turrets a warp prism is going to get into my base and warp in (so skill) like 16 zealots with a risk of like 200 minerals. What a joke.
I think that above all frustrates me about tvp in its current form. The risk to reward ratio for protoss is ludicrous, and in my opinion worse then broodlord infestor was. The fact that proxy f-18 hornet oracle is a legit strat is ridiculous enough, the fact that it can transition with almost no real loss is just...
It just seems so ludicrous that there is such a disparity in difficulty for the match up, and then the easier race is stronger in basically all phases of the game as well is enraging. Sorry but a terran complaining about drops/warp prism is honestly quite ironic since they have been doing it forever and they got the perfect composition for it with a dropship that straight up heals. How about following the arguments terrans made when zerg was complaining about drops.
The main difference is a terran has to commit. If he flies 2 medivacs into a bunch of spores and loses both of them thats probably 20 supply and 1k/200 resources lost. If a protoss flies a warp prism into a bunch of turrets/spores and loses it then hes lost 200 minerals.
Disregarding that warp prism's are pretty obviously a much lower risk to use, the reward they have is so much higher then medivacs its crazy. A couple of medivacs loaded up into a zergs base might kill a hatchery and some drones and tech. A warp prism left uncheck can warp in 20+ zealots and kill everything.
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On December 06 2013 11:39 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 11:28 bo1b wrote:
Everything about protoss is frustrating to play against. Unless I have like 5 turrets a warp prism is going to get into my base and warp in (so skill) like 16 zealots with a risk of like 200 minerals. What a joke.
I think that above all frustrates me about tvp in its current form. The risk to reward ratio for protoss is ludicrous, and in my opinion worse then broodlord infestor was. The fact that proxy f-18 hornet oracle is a legit strat is ridiculous enough, the fact that it can transition with almost no real loss is just...
It just seems so ludicrous that there is such a disparity in difficulty for the match up, and then the easier race is stronger in basically all phases of the game as well is enraging. Sorry but a terran complaining about drops/warp prism is honestly quite ironic since they have been doing it forever and they got the perfect composition for it with a dropship that straight up heals. How about following the arguments terrans made when zerg was complaining about drops.
He's not complaining about drops, he's complaining about Zealot drops. The spray and pray equivalent of drop harass. Terran wants "straight up heals" during harass, he has to get his Medivac in on the action, which means it can get sniped by Nexus Cannon, Stalkers, Spores, Queens. Risk/reward. He wants to harass at all, he has to carry the units inside the Medivac which can get sniped en route killing them instantly. Risk/reward. He wants more than 8 units for a drop, he can't just build a few more Barracks, he has to send out more Medivacs which can also get sniped.
Risk/reward.
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On December 06 2013 11:47 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 11:39 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2013 11:28 bo1b wrote:
Everything about protoss is frustrating to play against. Unless I have like 5 turrets a warp prism is going to get into my base and warp in (so skill) like 16 zealots with a risk of like 200 minerals. What a joke.
I think that above all frustrates me about tvp in its current form. The risk to reward ratio for protoss is ludicrous, and in my opinion worse then broodlord infestor was. The fact that proxy f-18 hornet oracle is a legit strat is ridiculous enough, the fact that it can transition with almost no real loss is just...
It just seems so ludicrous that there is such a disparity in difficulty for the match up, and then the easier race is stronger in basically all phases of the game as well is enraging. Sorry but a terran complaining about drops/warp prism is honestly quite ironic since they have been doing it forever and they got the perfect composition for it with a dropship that straight up heals. How about following the arguments terrans made when zerg was complaining about drops. The main difference is a terran has to commit. If he flies 2 medivacs into a bunch of spores and loses both of them thats probably 20 supply and 1k/200 resources lost. If a protoss flies a warp prism into a bunch of turrets/spores and loses it then hes lost 200 minerals. Disregarding that warp prism's are pretty obviously a much lower risk to use, the reward they have is so much higher then medivacs its crazy. A couple of medivacs loaded up into a zergs base might kill a hatchery and some drones and tech. A warp prism left uncheck can warp in 20+ zealots and kill everything.
I think you mean 30+ Zealots...
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Nathanias was talking about TvP on his stream today and said that almost all of the problems in the match up come from how strong Protoss is in the early game. Instead of nerfing anything, he proposed two fixes:
1. Missile Turrets don't need Engineering Bay to deal with Oracles.
2. MSC vision range down from its ridiculous and unprecedented 14 to a normal 9, to add some risk into Blink All-ins for the Protoss.
I don't agree that that's all that's wrong with the match-up, but that's a start.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
I see most fixes to Protoss for the last good while as bandaids. Yeah they might work in dealing with specific allins or problems, but the race needs, needs a more fundamental overhaul for the long-term good of the game IMO.
In the interim, I'd also look at reverting the forge upgrade costs back up. Those values were altered to reflect to necessity in dumping hundreds of gas into sentries for safety, a situation which isn't so much the case in modern PvT. Dual forge styles aren't really utilised in the other two matchups, or at least not in the same way.
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On December 06 2013 16:18 pure.Wasted wrote:
Nathanias was talking about TvP on his stream today and said that almost all of the problems in the match up come from how strong Protoss is in the early game. Instead of nerfing anything, he proposed two fixes:
1. Missile Turrets don't need Engineering Bay to deal with Oracles.
2. MSC vision range down from its ridiculous and unprecedented 14 to a normal 9, to add some risk into Blink All-ins for the Protoss.
I don't agree that that's all that's wrong with the match-up, but that's a start.
The second point is so true. I don't even understand why the MSC has to be a flying xel naga tower, I guess in the development it was based on the Mothership but yeah, there is no reason to keep it that way, protoss already have free hallucination to scout anyway.
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On December 06 2013 16:18 pure.Wasted wrote:
Nathanias was talking about TvP on his stream today and said that almost all of the problems in the match up come from how strong Protoss is in the early game. Instead of nerfing anything, he proposed two fixes:
1. Missile Turrets don't need Engineering Bay to deal with Oracles.
2. MSC vision range down from its ridiculous and unprecedented 14 to a normal 9, to add some risk into Blink All-ins for the Protoss.
I don't agree that that's all that's wrong with the match-up, but that's a start.
I think it´s a wrong way to make the static defences basically for free. I don´t like it at all with the spore crawler and if they went the same way for terran, it would be even worse.
This is a really bad way of gamedesign and lowers the overall quality of the game. Not even talking about the sideeffects it will have in TvT...
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I think MsC is fine. The design of this unit is a little bit outdated.
the nexus cannon is supposed to help with 1-1-1 if I remember correctly.
Now I can't remember exactly but this was why they made MsC a unit:
Early game aggression
Fix PvP
less risky if out of position
More strategy options
It did all that. Now what we need is some fine tuning on Nexus cannon and maybe take a look at time warp, as well as blink stalker build's risk/reward level.
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On December 06 2013 06:02 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 05:54 SC2Toastie wrote:On December 06 2013 04:56 Daswollvieh wrote:
What if the Photon Overcharge would not be cast on the nexus, but on the MSC itself, attaching itself to the Nexus for the duration. That way it could be sniped if not defended properly. Making it pretty worthless as you'll be super vulnerable to marines/mutalisk/hydralisk/phoenix/voidray/etc Ya, the strength of the nexus cannon comes 100% from how much you have to commit to target fire it away from the battle lol
What I ment is that you just snipe the MSC and it's done.
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On December 06 2013 05:40 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 04:56 Daswollvieh wrote:
What if the Photon Overcharge would not be cast on the nexus, but on the MSC itself, attaching itself to the Nexus for the duration. That way it could be sniped if not defended properly. This is the best of the ideas I've heard so far. Seeing that the fact that protoss has no risk is because it needs no units, in this case it would still need at least a few units. As long as the MSC was still selectable (and you could kill it to stop photon overcharge), I think this might actually be effective. Bottom line, Terran MUST be able to counter after some of these cheese/all-in/pressure builds, ESPECIALLY when they don't do any damage. EDIT: As a throw in for the protoss, maybe they can make it instant, and be able to use on any nexus on the map, so you can actually attach to your third if you are sitting in your main, ETC.
The real problem I see with this idea is that it would make the MSC largely worthless because you'd once again need to keep your army close in to your bases as there is no way the PO would be scary enough to hold a base for long enough to respond with a more distant army. The MSC is pretty weak in itself so you'd basically be back to WoL style play but with the MSC providing a bit more turtle power.
On December 06 2013 13:46 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 11:47 bo1b wrote:On December 06 2013 11:39 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2013 11:28 bo1b wrote:
Everything about protoss is frustrating to play against. Unless I have like 5 turrets a warp prism is going to get into my base and warp in (so skill) like 16 zealots with a risk of like 200 minerals. What a joke.
I think that above all frustrates me about tvp in its current form. The risk to reward ratio for protoss is ludicrous, and in my opinion worse then broodlord infestor was. The fact that proxy f-18 hornet oracle is a legit strat is ridiculous enough, the fact that it can transition with almost no real loss is just...
It just seems so ludicrous that there is such a disparity in difficulty for the match up, and then the easier race is stronger in basically all phases of the game as well is enraging. Sorry but a terran complaining about drops/warp prism is honestly quite ironic since they have been doing it forever and they got the perfect composition for it with a dropship that straight up heals. How about following the arguments terrans made when zerg was complaining about drops. The main difference is a terran has to commit. If he flies 2 medivacs into a bunch of spores and loses both of them thats probably 20 supply and 1k/200 resources lost. If a protoss flies a warp prism into a bunch of turrets/spores and loses it then hes lost 200 minerals. Disregarding that warp prism's are pretty obviously a much lower risk to use, the reward they have is so much higher then medivacs its crazy. A couple of medivacs loaded up into a zergs base might kill a hatchery and some drones and tech. A warp prism left uncheck can warp in 20+ zealots and kill everything. I think you mean 30+ Zealots...
Got to love the hyperbole in this thread. If a Protoss warps 30+ Zealots into your base then you lift your buildings and attack...
Thats sixty supply and three thousand minerals tied up trying use melee units to kill a base half consisting of flying buildings (including your three major production structures and central base structure). Assuming around another 60 minimum in probes for two saturated mineral lines; the opponent has around 80 army supply max to deal with your main army which will be what...140 supply if you're maxed or so? Maybe a little less? And a quarter to a third of the Protoss army is likely to be a handful of Colossi; that doesn't leave much to buffer for the AoE that Protoss MUST have not to die to a Terran.
You know what you call a Protoss commander with sixty army supply away from his main army? Dead Executor walking.
Honestly as long as you don't actually move command into their army or decide to hold position in storms then its pretty hard to lose.
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There's something wrong with protoss fundamentaly, but we can't expect blizzard to redesign the race without LOTV. They missed their chance with HOTS, but there's another shot.
Meanwhile we sadly need bandaids or a metagame revelation.
What IN MY OPINION is the problem with current protoss is quite close to late WOL Zerg.
Zerg got the Queen patch + Ferrarilords and because of that became a lot more stable in the early game: devote less resources to become more efficient. Result: Zergs economy couldn't be touched early on. Result: Zerg became really really greedy and got Hives as early as 11 minutes with 3/4 bases fully operational. Because no damage could be dealt early on and defense didn't take a devotion, Zerg rushed into lategame with a massive economy, and we all know what happened after that. Zerg did however have some vicious all ins that could easilly take out a Terran matching their greed.
Protoss nowadays has the same thing. Protoss has the Mothership core as a replacement Queen. You don't fear any early agression because you have high dps from the get-go (early enough to hold even the 11/11 with some cool trickery). Because of that, Protoss does some really weird shit like get a forge, robotics facility, 4 observers and a warp prism, Twilight, upgrades etc. before gates 2/3 are really operational (this is a slight exaggeration, but only slight). Anything Terran can be held with chronoboost, a little bit of scouting (Probe scout + Stalker at front) and because of this, Protoss get's a headstart into lategame. You easilly secure a third before Terran off only 3/6 gates (collosi/templar tech) most of the time, with Tech barely kicking in. Protoss' lategame army isn't flat out superior to Terrans, which people seem to say,, but Protoss reaches this stage WAY AHEAD of Terran, as well as having their stronger reinforcement abilities.
Terran could handle Broodlord Infestor given the time, and Terran can handle Protoss lategame given transitioning time, but the armies of arrived minutes (lots of minutes!) ahead of Terrans, and as such, Terran couldn't handle them.
(This is vaguely comparable to using a 10 minute Terran army to attack a 5 minute Terran; whatever you do or try, 5 minute Terran rolls over and dies, but if 5 minute Terran is given more time (10 minute Terran doesn't get the headstart) there's no problem.) + Show Spoiler [Analogy] +I hope this isn't too unclear :D
Broodlord Infestor in HotS got fixed by a combination of new maps, raven buffs, Speedyvacs and most importantly the MASSIVE pressure Terran can put on with the Widow Mine, delaying Zerg endgame to a point Terran can match it.
There's still hope for some kind of invention from Terran, a slick build order that can deal with Protoss (though unlikely, given the build orders/gameplay has been like this for 3 years). If not, some patching needs to be done. I'd say the patching needs to be done is such a way as to nerf Early game Protoss vs Terran BUT NOT affect PvP too negatively and have minimal influence on PvZ.
How? I don't know, that is for Blizzard to decide (although their latest balance changes make me lose a bit of hope) and maybe the community to push to them.
That was my write up, let me hear what you think :D
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On December 06 2013 21:20 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 05:40 Iron_ wrote:On December 06 2013 04:56 Daswollvieh wrote:
What if the Photon Overcharge would not be cast on the nexus, but on the MSC itself, attaching itself to the Nexus for the duration. That way it could be sniped if not defended properly. This is the best of the ideas I've heard so far. Seeing that the fact that protoss has no risk is because it needs no units, in this case it would still need at least a few units. As long as the MSC was still selectable (and you could kill it to stop photon overcharge), I think this might actually be effective. Bottom line, Terran MUST be able to counter after some of these cheese/all-in/pressure builds, ESPECIALLY when they don't do any damage. EDIT: As a throw in for the protoss, maybe they can make it instant, and be able to use on any nexus on the map, so you can actually attach to your third if you are sitting in your main, ETC. The real problem I see with this idea is that it would make the MSC largely worthless because you'd once again need to keep your army close in to your bases as there is no way the PO would be scary enough to hold a base for long enough to respond with a more distant army. The MSC is pretty weak in itself so you'd basically be back to WoL style play but with the MSC providing a bit more turtle power. Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 13:46 aZealot wrote:On December 06 2013 11:47 bo1b wrote:On December 06 2013 11:39 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2013 11:28 bo1b wrote:
Everything about protoss is frustrating to play against. Unless I have like 5 turrets a warp prism is going to get into my base and warp in (so skill) like 16 zealots with a risk of like 200 minerals. What a joke.
I think that above all frustrates me about tvp in its current form. The risk to reward ratio for protoss is ludicrous, and in my opinion worse then broodlord infestor was. The fact that proxy f-18 hornet oracle is a legit strat is ridiculous enough, the fact that it can transition with almost no real loss is just...
It just seems so ludicrous that there is such a disparity in difficulty for the match up, and then the easier race is stronger in basically all phases of the game as well is enraging. Sorry but a terran complaining about drops/warp prism is honestly quite ironic since they have been doing it forever and they got the perfect composition for it with a dropship that straight up heals. How about following the arguments terrans made when zerg was complaining about drops. The main difference is a terran has to commit. If he flies 2 medivacs into a bunch of spores and loses both of them thats probably 20 supply and 1k/200 resources lost. If a protoss flies a warp prism into a bunch of turrets/spores and loses it then hes lost 200 minerals. Disregarding that warp prism's are pretty obviously a much lower risk to use, the reward they have is so much higher then medivacs its crazy. A couple of medivacs loaded up into a zergs base might kill a hatchery and some drones and tech. A warp prism left uncheck can warp in 20+ zealots and kill everything. I think you mean 30+ Zealots... Got to love the hyperbole in this thread. If a Protoss warps 30+ Zealots into your base then you lift your buildings and attack... Thats sixty supply and three thousand minerals tied up trying use melee units to kill a base half consisting of flying buildings (including your three major production structures and central base structure). Assuming around another 60 minimum in probes for two saturated mineral lines; the opponent has around 80 army supply max to deal with your main army which will be what...140 supply if you're maxed or so? Maybe a little less? And a quarter to a third of the Protoss army is likely to be a handful of Colossi; that doesn't leave much to buffer for the AoE that Protoss MUST have not to die to a Terran. You know what you call a Protoss commander with sixty army supply away from his main army? Dead Executor walking. Honestly as long as you don't actually move command into their army or decide to hold position in storms then its pretty hard to lose.
At the first comment:
There's nothing wrong with changing the PO from guaranteed base defense to support - there's nothing wrong with leaving supply behind if Terran dedicates 20 supply to pressure.
At the second:
Protoss can efficiently hold 3 bases with 80 supply verse Terran on 140 with sufficient Storms, Sentries and warp in replacing. meanwhile you are out of infrastructure and bases.
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Maybe its just my personal opinion but I'd rather have them buff terran lategame instead of tinkering with the early game again. Even if you make protoss weaker to terran aggression and force them to play safer it doesnt change the fact that terran will still most likely all-in at the 3 base mark instead of trying to play a frankly imbalanced lategame where protoss has both storm and colossi. There's just no wiggle room there for an actually dynamic back-and-forth match-up, even if winrates have been okay the match-up has still been extremely uninteresting for a long time now.
The most obvious buff being unnerfing the ghost EMP radius, making ghosts actually worth building to help against entire armies instead of just to snipe high templar. Hell, most Korean terrans just try to dodge storms and snipe templar with marauders instead of building the unit in its current state. No other match-ups are affected by the buff either.
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On December 06 2013 22:13 Bagi wrote:
Maybe its just my personal opinion but I'd rather have them buff terran lategame instead of tinkering with the early game again. Even if you make protoss weaker to terran aggression and force them to play safer it doesnt change the fact that terran will still most likely all-in at the 3 base mark instead of trying to play a frankly imbalanced lategame where protoss has both storm and colossi. There's just no wiggle room there for an actually dynamic back-and-forth match-up, even if winrates have been okay the match-up has still been extremely uninteresting for a long time now.
The most obvious buff being unnerfing the ghost EMP radius, making ghosts actually worth building to help against entire armies instead of just to snipe high templar. Hell, most Korean terrans just try to dodge storms and snipe templar with marauders instead of building the unit in its current state. No other match-ups are affected by the buff either.
Why..not..do..both..? Or are you just talking about priorities.
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Bagi did you read what I wrote?
Terran lategame Ghost Viking can handle Protoss, the problem is Protoss getting there too fast.
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On December 06 2013 22:27 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 22:13 Bagi wrote:
Maybe its just my personal opinion but I'd rather have them buff terran lategame instead of tinkering with the early game again. Even if you make protoss weaker to terran aggression and force them to play safer it doesnt change the fact that terran will still most likely all-in at the 3 base mark instead of trying to play a frankly imbalanced lategame where protoss has both storm and colossi. There's just no wiggle room there for an actually dynamic back-and-forth match-up, even if winrates have been okay the match-up has still been extremely uninteresting for a long time now.
The most obvious buff being unnerfing the ghost EMP radius, making ghosts actually worth building to help against entire armies instead of just to snipe high templar. Hell, most Korean terrans just try to dodge storms and snipe templar with marauders instead of building the unit in its current state. No other match-ups are affected by the buff either. Why..not..do..both..? Or are you just talking about priorities.
Mostly priorities yes, as well as the fact that by adjusting both the early and the lategame at the same time you risk making terran imba again.
I think terran players could deal with a difficult early game if they had a better chance at comebacks and outplaying their opponent in the long run.
On December 06 2013 22:30 SC2Toastie wrote:
Bagi did you read what I wrote?
Terran lategame Ghost Viking can handle Protoss, the problem is Protoss getting there too fast.
Maybe with an extremely turtley style where you make an army thats almost entirely ghosts and get ridiculously cost effective fights one after another.
The thing is that nobody wants to play or watch that, and protoss has plenty of opportunities to kill the terran while they try to get there. Nerf protoss early game and you are just buffing the 3 base all ins terrans are doing now, why would they NOT continue doing them?
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The fact there's an endgame doesn't mean it always get's to that, games get a lot closer because suddenly Terran agression works again and the midgame gets extended (see ZvT)
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On December 06 2013 21:42 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 21:20 -Celestial- wrote:On December 06 2013 05:40 Iron_ wrote:On December 06 2013 04:56 Daswollvieh wrote:
What if the Photon Overcharge would not be cast on the nexus, but on the MSC itself, attaching itself to the Nexus for the duration. That way it could be sniped if not defended properly. This is the best of the ideas I've heard so far. Seeing that the fact that protoss has no risk is because it needs no units, in this case it would still need at least a few units. As long as the MSC was still selectable (and you could kill it to stop photon overcharge), I think this might actually be effective. Bottom line, Terran MUST be able to counter after some of these cheese/all-in/pressure builds, ESPECIALLY when they don't do any damage. EDIT: As a throw in for the protoss, maybe they can make it instant, and be able to use on any nexus on the map, so you can actually attach to your third if you are sitting in your main, ETC. The real problem I see with this idea is that it would make the MSC largely worthless because you'd once again need to keep your army close in to your bases as there is no way the PO would be scary enough to hold a base for long enough to respond with a more distant army. The MSC is pretty weak in itself so you'd basically be back to WoL style play but with the MSC providing a bit more turtle power. On December 06 2013 13:46 aZealot wrote:On December 06 2013 11:47 bo1b wrote:On December 06 2013 11:39 Assirra wrote:On December 06 2013 11:28 bo1b wrote:
Everything about protoss is frustrating to play against. Unless I have like 5 turrets a warp prism is going to get into my base and warp in (so skill) like 16 zealots with a risk of like 200 minerals. What a joke.
I think that above all frustrates me about tvp in its current form. The risk to reward ratio for protoss is ludicrous, and in my opinion worse then broodlord infestor was. The fact that proxy f-18 hornet oracle is a legit strat is ridiculous enough, the fact that it can transition with almost no real loss is just...
It just seems so ludicrous that there is such a disparity in difficulty for the match up, and then the easier race is stronger in basically all phases of the game as well is enraging. Sorry but a terran complaining about drops/warp prism is honestly quite ironic since they have been doing it forever and they got the perfect composition for it with a dropship that straight up heals. How about following the arguments terrans made when zerg was complaining about drops. The main difference is a terran has to commit. If he flies 2 medivacs into a bunch of spores and loses both of them thats probably 20 supply and 1k/200 resources lost. If a protoss flies a warp prism into a bunch of turrets/spores and loses it then hes lost 200 minerals. Disregarding that warp prism's are pretty obviously a much lower risk to use, the reward they have is so much higher then medivacs its crazy. A couple of medivacs loaded up into a zergs base might kill a hatchery and some drones and tech. A warp prism left uncheck can warp in 20+ zealots and kill everything. I think you mean 30+ Zealots... Got to love the hyperbole in this thread. If a Protoss warps 30+ Zealots into your base then you lift your buildings and attack... Thats sixty supply and three thousand minerals tied up trying use melee units to kill a base half consisting of flying buildings (including your three major production structures and central base structure). Assuming around another 60 minimum in probes for two saturated mineral lines; the opponent has around 80 army supply max to deal with your main army which will be what...140 supply if you're maxed or so? Maybe a little less? And a quarter to a third of the Protoss army is likely to be a handful of Colossi; that doesn't leave much to buffer for the AoE that Protoss MUST have not to die to a Terran. You know what you call a Protoss commander with sixty army supply away from his main army? Dead Executor walking. Honestly as long as you don't actually move command into their army or decide to hold position in storms then its pretty hard to lose. At the first comment: There's nothing wrong with changing the PO from guaranteed base defense to support - there's nothing wrong with leaving supply behind if Terran dedicates 20 supply to pressure. At the second: Protoss can efficiently hold 3 bases with 80 supply verse Terran on 140 with sufficient Storms, Sentries and warp in replacing. meanwhile you are out of infrastructure and bases.
Yes, there is. Because the whole bloody point of the MSC was to allow Protoss to actually move out given how Protoss needs to keep the army together. If the Photon overcharge can be shut down by easily sniping an MSC it completely loses any defensive utility by itself; which is what lets P move out. You'll get more all-ins. That is the outcome, because Protoss won't be able to safely take a third base and be active in any way. So it'll be safer to just do something off two bases and bring the MSC along for time warps.
And I'm not being funny but with 40-60 supply in buffer warpgate units and Templars there IS going to be a lack of something, likely either Zealots or Stalkers which either means not enough buffer from ground and you get rolled over or not enough defence against air for the Colossi, and THEN you get rolled over. You just can't have enough of both if you've got that little supply to work against. Again unless you have the worst control in the world and hold position in storms. Not to mention "warp in replacing" means he's got either an obscene bank given how much gas will be being lost and how much minerals he dumped into a "Zealot harrass". Again, three thousand minerals thrown away on an absurd number of Zealots chilling in a main whilst any building of any real importance flies away. Without MULEs. If you're THAT far behind you deserve to lose.
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You're stating that there'd be something wrong with the MSC if 20 supply of terran units required more than only the msc to be defended?
On the 2nd part, hyperbole and irrationality.
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On December 06 2013 22:43 SC2Toastie wrote:
The fact there's an endgame doesn't mean it always get's to that, games get a lot closer because suddenly Terran agression works again and the midgame gets extended (see ZvT)
A closer midgame is just more reason for terran to pull SCVs.
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EPT
