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Frex
Finland888 Posts
On December 05 2013 09:09 forsooth wrote: And you can't even do fun cheeses like you could in WoL when you got tired of playing standard. It's terrible. This is what frustfrates me a lot, the match up is sooo one dimensional from the terran´s POV. I personally just do reaper expand every single game. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 05 2013 09:35 Wombat_NI wrote: Which is more frustrating for you Terrans, TvP currently or TvZ in late WoL? TvP right now. TvZ in late WoL sucked awfully, but if I wanted to change it up, I could still kinda do a marauder/hellion type of push. I always had really good games on Cloud Kingdom where I could turtle up one side of the map on my 4th, and then hit the Zerg's other side. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
You feel like you NEED to do damage and hurt stuff, but you know that every move you make can end in giving one tiny edge to you or giving your opponent the opportunity to box his army and kill your newest base at the least... It's feels like (FEELS!!!) you need to win 5-6 engagements (little or small) convincingly as Terran - if you screw up on one of them, you just roll over and die. I really want to know how TvP would be doing without MSC.... So many less all ins, no longer the need to have 3 marines kinda early because Protoss might randomly fly to your base (more reapers!!) and more drops that can work without fighting vs a nexus alone... Not to speak of how silly recall is. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On December 06 2013 00:49 SC2Toastie wrote: TvP You feel like you NEED to do damage and hurt stuff, but you know that every move you make can end in giving one tiny edge to you or giving your opponent the opportunity to box his army and kill your newest base at the least... It's feels like (FEELS!!!) you need to win 5-6 engagements (little or small) convincingly as Terran - if you screw up on one of them, you just roll over and die. I really want to know how TvP would be doing without MSC.... So many less all ins, no longer the need to have 3 marines kinda early because Protoss might randomly fly to your base (more reapers!!) and more drops that can work without fighting vs a nexus alone... Not to speak of how silly recall is. Protoss would be the worst race to play by far without MSC | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12131 Posts
On December 06 2013 00:49 SC2Toastie wrote: TvP You feel like you NEED to do damage and hurt stuff, but you know that every move you make can end in giving one tiny edge to you or giving your opponent the opportunity to box his army and kill your newest base at the least... It's feels like (FEELS!!!) you need to win 5-6 engagements (little or small) convincingly as Terran - if you screw up on one of them, you just roll over and die. I really want to know how TvP would be doing without MSC.... So many less all ins, no longer the need to have 3 marines kinda early because Protoss might randomly fly to your base (more reapers!!) and more drops that can work without fighting vs a nexus alone... Not to speak of how silly recall is. Hehe  I have the same feelings for me - Protoss Though it's more about my style - I really enjoy long "spoon" games | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 06 2013 00:49 SC2Toastie wrote: TvP You feel like you NEED to do damage and hurt stuff, but you know that every move you make can end in giving one tiny edge to you or giving your opponent the opportunity to box his army and kill your newest base at the least... It's feels like (FEELS!!!) you need to win 5-6 engagements (little or small) convincingly as Terran - if you screw up on one of them, you just roll over and die. I really want to know how TvP would be doing without MSC.... So many less all ins, no longer the need to have 3 marines kinda early because Protoss might randomly fly to your base (more reapers!!) and more drops that can work without fighting vs a nexus alone... Not to speak of how silly recall is. The MSC cannot be removed in HotS as Blizzard made the grave mistake to make it a core mechanic of the race instead of fixing the terrible mess that Protoss is. But its strength can and should be toned down. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27200 Posts
With TvP I find it's more frustration on the sheer variety of ways you can die, but equally you have quite a few quick losses and I found that easier to shrug off and go re-ladder. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27200 Posts
Kim's rationale was something like 'People would prefer a unit' or something, which I don't recall at least on these forums. Pissed me off, I thought, numbers/tweaking aside the original MSC idea actually had potential in terms of strategic utility. 'Macro' Protoss could have used it to augment upgrades and chrono probes out hardcore, at the expense of having the PO. Timing attack masters might have honed things even more, and middle of the road guys would have that bit of extra safety. Bargh | ||
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Doominator10
United States515 Posts
#That I thought that the beta MSC was a really cool idea. I think the rationale behind making the MSC into a flying unit was that it offers some (theoretical) counter play. As in other races could shoot the MSC and interact with it instead of protoss just walking out and recalling from no where. Unfortunately, Blizzard took a cool concept and just gave protoss a T1 arbiter. (Also, the previous MSC did not have a direct attack if I remember). | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On December 06 2013 02:18 Doominator10 wrote: @post above me: #That I thought that the beta MSC was a really cool idea. I think the rationale behind making the MSC into a flying unit was that it offers some (theoretical) counter play. As in other races could shoot the MSC and interact with it instead of protoss just walking out and recalling from no where. Unfortunately, Blizzard took a cool concept and just gave protoss a T1 arbiter. (Also, the previous MSC did not have a direct attack if I remember). A cheap T1 Arbiter and they put Photon Overcharge AND a decent DPS on top of it. (Arbiters have by far the worst DPS of any unit that can attack in whole Starcraft). I liked the concept of an upgrade on your nexus, that can switch between them to power them up more and was very confused, when they made a unit out of it and even more confused when it got those ridiculous strong spells along with good combat stats. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On December 06 2013 02:54 TeeTS wrote: A cheap T1 Arbiter and they put Photon Overcharge AND a decent DPS on top of it. (Arbiters have by far the worst DPS of any unit that can attack in whole Starcraft). I liked the concept of an upgrade on your nexus, that can switch between them to power them up more and was very confused, when they made a unit out of it and even more confused when it got those ridiculous strong spells along with good combat stats. Shhh, don't state the facts too loudly, they'll probably realize the only weakness it still has is the low hp and movement speed! And since Blizzard has been generally buffing the movement speed of everything lately, that may be their next move... I mean, they even tried to make the DT's faster, and that's probably still a future change in the works! | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On December 06 2013 02:54 TeeTS wrote: A cheap T1 Arbiter and they put Photon Overcharge AND a decent DPS on top of it. (Arbiters have by far the worst DPS of any unit that can attack in whole Starcraft). I liked the concept of an upgrade on your nexus, that can switch between them to power them up more and was very confused, when they made a unit out of it and even more confused when it got those ridiculous strong spells along with good combat stats. DPS of the mothership is often negligible in a lot of situations other then early game PvZ and desperation moments. Generally you never want to get close enough for the mothership to attack because you don't want to risk losing it, it's too valuable, usually ppl that engage with mothership in mid game and on make me shake my head. Recall is needed, as protoss has almost always had an issue with almost every attack/aggression move being "all-in", because if you didn't win that fight, there was no way to retreat and no way to rebuild your army because you'd lose most of it on your way back. Time warp is also fine, allows protoss to not be 100% reliant on sentries to take engagements anywhere but a choke point. Only thing worth looking at is photon overcharge, it provides a bit too much early game defense, although it is 100% needed in some way or another, especially PvP. I would suggest a cyber-core upgrade to make it what it is now (it's fine > 2 bases as is), and have it start off being weaker. I think that would fix everything with the mothership core. People that complain about mass recall don't understand how protoss works imo, especially in HotS with the crazy mobility increases of units/harassment. Also, the old "attach to nexus" mothership core was dumb, everyone should be glad that got changed lol Also also lol @ the "you have to win 6 engagements convincingly to beat toss". I'm glad you put an all caps "FEELS" in bracket, because that's just a ridiculous statement lol In SC2 when players are equal skill, generally winning 1 convincing (I should state my definition of convincing is you have a lot of your army left and he has none) engagement and not f*cking up after is enough for a win in any matchup, that's one of the biggest complaints everyone has about the game. If you win 2-3 convincing engagements and still lose, you were just playing a better player tbh | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 06 2013 01:33 Wombat_NI wrote: As someone who dabbled I found TvZ more annoying back in those days. It was the kind of pre-ordained sense of dread, you knew what way the game was progressing and you would GET to that stage, but still so often die. The general length of game was longer as well. With TvP I find it's more frustration on the sheer variety of ways you can die, but equally you have quite a few quick losses and I found that easier to shrug off and go re-ladder. Maybe I've just forgotten how stupid TvZ late game was back in WoL, but I really really hate the feeling of I might be ahead after defending an all in, finding out that the Protoss has taken a natural, and then get all in'd again with a 2/2 archon/chargelot timing, or dying to a deathball. I think a big part of it is that in TvP, I always feel like if I know what the Protoss is doing, I'm can respond and if I don't respond properly, it's not cause the race is dumb cause realistically any balance stuff is kinda not my deal. With infestors, fungal just felt like well, that sucks. I'll probably lose to that and I'm p sure it's OP and not necessarily cause my skill (though I could do stuff to mitigate fungal) and so I take the losses a lot easier. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On December 06 2013 00:49 SC2Toastie wrote: TvP would be slanted heavily in the favour of Terran if not for the mothership core. Without it, medivac drops with boost would be simply too powerful because without photon overcharge Protoss has no way of stopping drops since boosted medivacs are so much faster than any ground based Protoss anti-air unit. Protoss would be forced to open phoenix or blink every game and this would open up a ton of vulnerabilities.TvP You feel like you NEED to do damage and hurt stuff, but you know that every move you make can end in giving one tiny edge to you or giving your opponent the opportunity to box his army and kill your newest base at the least... It's feels like (FEELS!!!) you need to win 5-6 engagements (little or small) convincingly as Terran - if you screw up on one of them, you just roll over and die. I really want to know how TvP would be doing without MSC.... So many less all ins, no longer the need to have 3 marines kinda early because Protoss might randomly fly to your base (more reapers!!) and more drops that can work without fighting vs a nexus alone... Not to speak of how silly recall is. Simply put, the situation would reverse. To fix the matchup they need to find a middle ground. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
On December 05 2013 09:35 Wombat_NI wrote: Which is more frustrating for you Terrans, TvP currently or TvZ in late WoL? For me, TvP nowadays does not compare in any way to how ridiculous TvZ was back in 2012/early 2013. I hope to god that I never have to repeat that experience. Those losses were the worst. I always felt like I played perfectly for 15 minutes only to die in 10 seconds game after game after game because of a single micro mistake, as fungal was too easy to use and then the banes just ate you alive while the broodlords were on the way. Every loss, I felt like there was very little I could do to improve, it was just completely and absolutely broken, and the fact that any Terran players in the world could have a consistent winrate vs. Zerg just completely defied my personal gaming experience. At least in TvP now, if I die, I die slowly, and die fighting. I can still micro the heck out of my units, I can still drop and do damage and run away, I feel like I can win if I make good decisions. Even if I lose, I feel like I could have done something better, and often times the games last much shorter than 15 minutes anyway. The mistakes aren't "oh, you looked away from your army for 1 millisecond too long and got fungaled when your army was clumped", the mistakes are "wow, that micro/decision making/army movement was terrible". | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On December 06 2013 03:53 Ben... wrote: TvP would be slanted heavily in the favour of Terran if not for the mothership core. Without it, medivac drops with boost would be simply too powerful because without photon overcharge Protoss has no way of stopping drops since boosted medivacs are so much faster than any ground based Protoss anti-air unit. Protoss would be forced to open phoenix or blink every game and this would open up a ton of vulnerabilities. Simply put, the situation would reverse. To fix the matchup they need to find a middle ground. Medivacs are not boosted all the time. A couple cannons + HT, and later blinkstalker warp-ins are really good against them. Some bases are large enough that nexus cannon doesn't defend the entire space and protoss defend those areas that way. Later on, the msc is often with the protoss deathball and not defending drops anyway. Im not advocating for the removal of msc, but your rational doesn't make sense. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On December 06 2013 04:36 plogamer wrote: Medivacs are not boosted all the time. A couple cannons + HT, and later blinkstalker warp-ins are really good against them. Some bases are large enough that nexus cannon doesn't defend the entire space and protoss defend those areas that way. Later on, the msc is often with the protoss deathball and not defending drops anyway. Im not advocating for the removal of msc, but your rational doesn't make sense. I outlined above the reasoning why the MSC and its abilities all exist and are, for the most part, needed if everything else is left the same tbh | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On December 06 2013 04:38 ffadicted wrote: I outlined above the reasoning why the MSC and its abilities all exist and are, for the most part, need if everything else is left the same tbh I'm talking specific to drop defense, which is why im not advocating for the removal of msc. | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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