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TeeTS
Germany2762 Posts
On December 06 2013 22:30 SC2Toastie wrote: Bagi did you read what I wrote? Terran lategame Ghost Viking can handle Protoss, the problem is Protoss getting there too fast. When Protoss adds in Tempest in the mix, the advantage swings back to them, because then, Terran has to attack into the Protoss. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
You can't sinply state this as an argument against change without supportive evidence. Trial and error might be the key! | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 07 2013 00:42 SC2Toastie wrote: Pulling svcs tamed massive greed off 3 base; longer midgame means less greed. You can't sinply state this as an argument against change without supportive evidence. Trial and error might be the key! Pulling scvs isn't a counter to greed, the initial greed MSC provides has already paid off at that point. Its the counter to protoss playing an extremely standard games where they get enough colossi to be safe from most threats then tech to templar. Their only option would be to build more colossi but terran can easily build enough vikings to quickly neutralize pure colossi, you need templar. Its to end the game before protoss can get dual AOE and all the perks that come from it. Strengthening terran early/midgame will obviously let them deal more damage early on and make this timing that much stronger. I have no clue how anyone could think otherwise. | ||
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Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On December 06 2013 11:47 bo1b wrote: The main difference is a terran has to commit. If he flies 2 medivacs into a bunch of spores and loses both of them thats probably 20 supply and 1k/200 resources lost. If a protoss flies a warp prism into a bunch of turrets/spores and loses it then hes lost 200 minerals. Disregarding that warp prism's are pretty obviously a much lower risk to use, the reward they have is so much higher then medivacs its crazy. A couple of medivacs loaded up into a zergs base might kill a hatchery and some drones and tech. A warp prism left uncheck can warp in 20+ zealots and kill everything. If a Protoss warps 20+ zealots into your base why not go kill his base? They have a lot of supply in your base and all their warp gates are on cool-down so they won't be able to reinforce mid-battle (that's assuming they have the bank to do so, which might not be that likely if they just spent a lot of minerals on warping zealots into your main). Btw, being able to warp in 20+ zealots means the protoss had 20+ warpgates and none were on cooldown, so either they left their warpgates idle for a while for the drop or they had to time to drop to match up with an opening in their production cycle. Also, there is one way that terran drops are more dangerous than protoss drops: Protoss rely on more tech structures. Only ghosts, thors, hellbats, and battlecruisers need a specialist building. For protoss you have colossus, high templar, dark templar, stalker, sentry, mcore, tempests and carriers. If a terran can snipe a tech structure then it can change the protoss's army composition or make it take longer to build that army. The races are so different that it's hard to say a terran drop is better/worse than a protoss warp prism harass. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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Melliflue
United Kingdom1389 Posts
On December 07 2013 02:04 TheDwf wrote: Can't you understand this "20+ Zealots" stuff is just an expression? Sure, but my point is that the more zealots they warp into your base the more vulnerable their main army is and the fewer warpgates they have not on cooldown. Being specifically 20+ isn't important. More that if they have committed so many zealots that they can destroy your base before your army can return to deal with them then your army can probably go inflict some damage on the protoss in return. Just as how a 3-medivac drop will do more damage than a single medivac drop, but also leaves the main terran army weaker. I know "20+" is a deliberate exaggeration, but it is also an exaggeration that the zealot warp-in will kill everything. Unless you take it literally with the "left unchecked" part, but a single probe can kill everything if you don't do anything about it (although that would take a while). If the problem for terran is very bad then hyperbole shouldn't be needed to demonstrate the problem. Such hyperbole doesn't help the discussion. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On December 07 2013 02:04 TheDwf wrote: Can't you understand this "20+ Zealots" stuff is just an expression? But it is not conducive to good discussion to use hyperbole like that. Anyways, even with a rather big warp-in, say around 10+, it's extremely difficult for Terran to just go and kill the Protoss when they have collosi and storm. Terran also has to micro against the chargelots while the chargelots don't. Micro'ing on two fronts is very difficult. ... That's also an advantage of planetary nexus - that it draws fire and drops need to micro and targetfire probes. ... Seriously, a really simple fix to the planetary nexus would be to change the AI so that it doesn't draw aggro and acts like a regular building. Anyone who really wants the nexus and focus fire it very easily since it's huge - but otherwise they can still punish protoss that skimp on drop defenses, or are out of position. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 07 2013 02:16 plogamer wrote: But it is not conducive to good discussion to use hyperbole like that. Anyways, even with a rather big warp-in, say around 10+, it's extremely difficult for Terran to just go and kill the Protoss when they have collosi and storm. Terran also has to micro against the chargelots while the chargelots don't. Micro'ing on two fronts is very difficult. ... That's also an advantage of planetary nexus - that it draws fire and drops need to micro and targetfire probes. ... Seriously, a really simple fix to the planetary nexus would be to change the AI so that it doesn't draw aggro and acts like a regular building. Anyone who really wants the nexus and focus fire it very easily since it's huge - but otherwise they can still punish protoss that skimp on drop defenses, or are out of position. By micro, you mean putting marines on hold position so that they target only the probes near them? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12204 Posts
On December 07 2013 03:09 Thieving Magpie wrote: By micro, you mean putting marines on hold position so that they target only the probes near them? Maybe, but it's still an interesting idea. It's not even that big a stretch to do it for the nexus and not for the PF, as the PF is a real threat, always attacking, while the nexus and the PO can be seen as two separate things. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On December 06 2013 21:28 SC2Toastie wrote: There's something wrong with protoss fundamentaly, but we can't expect blizzard to redesign the race without LOTV. They missed their chance with HOTS, but there's another shot. Meanwhile we sadly need bandaids or a metagame revelation. What IN MY OPINION is the problem with current protoss is quite close to late WOL Zerg. Zerg got the Queen patch + Ferrarilords and because of that became a lot more stable in the early game: devote less resources to become more efficient. Result: Zergs economy couldn't be touched early on. Result: Zerg became really really greedy and got Hives as early as 11 minutes with 3/4 bases fully operational. Because no damage could be dealt early on and defense didn't take a devotion, Zerg rushed into lategame with a massive economy, and we all know what happened after that. Zerg did however have some vicious all ins that could easilly take out a Terran matching their greed. Protoss nowadays has the same thing. Protoss has the Mothership core as a replacement Queen. You don't fear any early agression because you have high dps from the get-go (early enough to hold even the 11/11 with some cool trickery). Because of that, Protoss does some really weird shit like get a forge, robotics facility, 4 observers and a warp prism, Twilight, upgrades etc. before gates 2/3 are really operational (this is a slight exaggeration, but only slight). Anything Terran can be held with chronoboost, a little bit of scouting (Probe scout + Stalker at front) and because of this, Protoss get's a headstart into lategame. You easilly secure a third before Terran off only 3/6 gates (collosi/templar tech) most of the time, with Tech barely kicking in. Protoss' lategame army isn't flat out superior to Terrans, which people seem to say,, but Protoss reaches this stage WAY AHEAD of Terran, as well as having their stronger reinforcement abilities. Terran could handle Broodlord Infestor given the time, and Terran can handle Protoss lategame given transitioning time, but the armies of arrived minutes (lots of minutes!) ahead of Terrans, and as such, Terran couldn't handle them. (This is vaguely comparable to using a 10 minute Terran army to attack a 5 minute Terran; whatever you do or try, 5 minute Terran rolls over and dies, but if 5 minute Terran is given more time (10 minute Terran doesn't get the headstart) there's no problem.) + Show Spoiler [Analogy] + I hope this isn't too unclear :D Broodlord Infestor in HotS got fixed by a combination of new maps, raven buffs, Speedyvacs and most importantly the MASSIVE pressure Terran can put on with the Widow Mine, delaying Zerg endgame to a point Terran can match it. There's still hope for some kind of invention from Terran, a slick build order that can deal with Protoss (though unlikely, given the build orders/gameplay has been like this for 3 years). If not, some patching needs to be done. I'd say the patching needs to be done is such a way as to nerf Early game Protoss vs Terran BUT NOT affect PvP too negatively and have minimal influence on PvZ. How? I don't know, that is for Blizzard to decide (although their latest balance changes make me lose a bit of hope) and maybe the community to push to them. That was my write up, let me hear what you think :D The only way a Protoss player could get robo, forge, twilight, 4 observers, warp prism, 2 more gates THEN a nexus is if a Terran went afk. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
Flying some medivacs into equally undefended toss bases does a trillion times more damage typically. Lots of zergs and terrans refuse to commit anything to drop defense like protoss have just learned to do since early WoL. Warp prism harrass is definitely very powerful (as it should be), and cannot be just dealt with on the fly, you should have to commit to the possibility. If you have nothing prepared for it and it warps in "30+" zealots and destroys the sh*t out of your main, you really have no one to blame but yourself | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25455 Posts
You can defend warpins pretty effectively, but having that defence will make the big engagement that little bit tougher. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
Maybe it's time we buff sensor tower cost? haha | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
On December 07 2013 03:59 ffadicted wrote: Fair point, it really is a bit harder to commit to drop defense with terran. Just my point is that typicall when WPs destroy enough sh*t to win game, that's why it happens. You can't just leave bases barren and be ok, not the way blizzard has made this game with ferrari-speed harrassing units everywhere. Maybe it's time we buff sensor tower cost? haha Maybe you could split your army/build a turret ring if protoss just couldn't 1a a ball of doom with some storms into your bio. Do you have any idea how expensive turret rings are?? | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On December 07 2013 05:52 Faust852 wrote: Wish we had defensive anti ground structures. ;( And not the PF lol. Would be very OP along with bunkers, repair and pf lol Turret rings are not ridiculously expensive in most maps if you're smart about it. I love how terrans always tell toss "leave a few stalkers, a high templar for feedback and 1 or so cannons in the main to prevent drops", but then complain about having to make 100 mineral turrets. Fact is, one way or another, terrans (and to some extent, zergs) aren't protecting their bases properly right now and getting punished for it. How you want to accomplish that goal is up to you, you have options. The warp prism isn't going to be getting nerfed any time soon, so I suggest adapting play, even if you may think it's "impossibly expensive" to adapt. I've been saying this for a while and will continue saying it, terran just needs to be a bit stronger in up-front engagements late game, and PO needs to be given a slight nerf. There's not much else I'd change in the matchup before LotV where new units/major changes can be made. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On December 07 2013 05:52 Faust852 wrote: Wish we had defensive anti ground structures. ;( And not the PF lol. Terrans already got bunkers, repair and PF. What do you want more? | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On December 07 2013 06:09 Assirra wrote: Terrans already got bunkers, repair and PF. What do you want more? A PF makes for great main base defense  Unlike P and Z defense, the best defense we have takes supply. But the game is balanced on terrans using all their supply on attack. It's, and I quote David Kim, the "aggressive race".But I think this discussion is moot anyway. The issue is that T can easily die to P harass due to the way the MU works, and there's very little risk to P harass. | ||
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PanzerElite
540 Posts
Nvm i need to stop reading and replying to balance stuff,.... | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On December 07 2013 06:15 Ghanburighan wrote: The issue is that T can easily die to P harass due to the way the MU works Agreed, but that's because terran doesn't defend their bases properly because they feel they need to clump their 170 late game army supply all together to take any fight. The best solution is to give terran better late game options of dealing with toss splash damage and warp-in reinforce that isn't "well I hope every single last one of my marines is enough to hold this", but leave toss harass untouched. | ||
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