EPTOn December 03 2013 17:12 Faust852 wrote:
You can't nerf core units, it would break the game on so many level.
You can't nerf core units, it would break the game on so many level.
They nerfed the Infestor. It unbroke the game.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 804
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
They nerfed the Infestor. It unbroke the game. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 03 2013 18:29 Big J wrote: They nerfed the Infestor. It unbroke the game. It shouldn't have been a core unit at the beginning :D | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
On December 03 2013 18:29 Big J wrote: They nerfed the Infestor. It unbroke the game. The problem with nurfing or buffing core units is not the unit itself is that core or low tier units tend to benefit the most from macro mechanics. You can´t buff Marines because of the reactor mechanic or you cant buff the Stalker it would make Gateway allins too strong. Or on the other hand nurfing the Zealot is problematic because it would have many many side effects like making the scv pull stronger or weakening the lategame harass. Most changes to this kind of units are indirect like longer research/building time for Rax, Stim or Blink that affect the units in some ways but don´t change it entirely in other situations. Thats also the reason why Zerg is the hardest race to balance. You can´t just buff units like the Hydra, Roaches or Mutas with something like more damage or less building time because Zerg can instantly make 50 supply of it as soon as the tech is available. That was/is part of the Queen problem in WoL because you dont need any tech or larva to build them so it had no drawback in terms of building mechanics. Or the Mutaswitch lategame PvZ, you can build an infinitive number of mutas out of a 200/200 building were the Protoss infra structure is way more expensive and harder to get. | ||
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VieuxSinge
France231 Posts
On December 03 2013 17:12 Faust852 wrote: For real ? In lategame with +3/+3 when you have a lot of them, they have an isane DPS, plus they can cloak. They are the real deal vs Zealots warpin' since you won't have that much marines in the lategame. Their role is not to defend zealots warpin, that's the hellbat's role. I too, agree that the ghost's attack should be nerfed or removed so that the ghost himself could be cheaper (like 125/75). Since they always die due to their positionning (need to be in front of the army), their attack damage is irrelevant. But that would make the ghost like a HT 2.0 wich is quite a poor design for the game | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 03 2013 19:01 Faust852 wrote: It shouldn't have been a core unit at the beginning :D I'd leave that to the players creativity. ;-) | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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Qwerty85
Croatia5536 Posts
On December 03 2013 20:28 Fjodorov wrote: What about changed the PO so that the nexus puts it on itself and it costs nexus energy. That way you have to save up energy if you are playing greedy and think you have to defend. Being able to chrono double forges and tech while defending with the canon is a big part of the problem. What do you guys think? Yes, having to decide between economy and safety sounds reasonable. Zerg has queens for early defense which don't consume larva so it is easier to drone, Protoss can use chronoboost but also have separate energy for PO, terran has to choose between planetary or orbital. Photon overcharge, time warp, chroboost, all those things are accessible either for free or for the price of MSC which is still lower in terms of gas cost than you would invest in sentries in WoL to be safe. I don't think there should be drastic changes, but how those abilities interact is just too much at this point. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On December 03 2013 19:06 USvBleakill wrote: The problem with nurfing or buffing core units is not the unit itself is that core or low tier units tend to benefit the most from macro mechanics. You can´t buff Marines because of the reactor mechanic or you cant buff the Stalker it would make Gateway allins too strong. Or on the other hand nurfing the Zealot is problematic because it would have many many side effects like making the scv pull stronger or weakening the lategame harass. Most changes to this kind of units are indirect like longer research/building time for Rax, Stim or Blink that affect the units in some ways but don´t change it entirely in other situations. Thats also the reason why Zerg is the hardest race to balance. You can´t just buff units like the Hydra, Roaches or Mutas with something like more damage or less building time because Zerg can instantly make 50 supply of it as soon as the tech is available. That was/is part of the Queen problem in WoL because you dont need any tech or larva to build them so it had no drawback in terms of building mechanics. Or the Mutaswitch lategame PvZ, you can build an infinitive number of mutas out of a 200/200 building were the Protoss infra structure is way more expensive and harder to get. They added major buffs to the Muta and Hydra in HotS? On December 03 2013 20:28 Fjodorov wrote: What about changed the PO so that the nexus puts it on itself and it costs nexus energy. That way you have to save up energy if you are playing greedy and think you have to defend. Being able to chrono double forges and tech while defending with the canon is a big part of the problem. What do you guys think? You want to make PO even stronger? Lol How is anybody going to attack/drop anywhere against toss lategame when you have 4 nexus ready to drop PO at a moments notice in any of your bases? | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On December 03 2013 22:46 ffadicted wrote: They added major buffs to the Muta and Hydra in HotS? Those were to counteract the introduction of WM (muta) and hydras were finally made useful. They were total garbage in WOL. Toss gateway unit buffs would be super dangerous as that would make their gateway-all-ins zoo much more dangerous, especially against zerg. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 03 2013 22:27 Qwerty85 wrote: Yes, having to decide between economy and safety sounds reasonable. Zerg has queens for early defense which don't consume larva so it is easier to drone, Protoss can use chronoboost but also have separate energy for PO, terran has to choose between planetary or orbital. Photon overcharge, time warp, chroboost, all those things are accessible either for free or for the price of MSC which is still lower in terms of gas cost than you would invest in sentries in WoL to be safe. I don't think there should be drastic changes, but how those abilities interact is just too much at this point. Yeah, but I don't think the particular idea is a solution. In ZvP when you establish your natural or your 3rd, having the ability to immidiatly PO it immidiatly is a build-enabling thing. Similarily for PvP when you establish your natural. If you remove that, builds like Gateway expands may lose their viability. Also leaving it at 100energy when a nexus can only store 100energy is quite overboard. It means you cannot chrono at all with your Nexus, not to mention how you'd control chronoboost properly, since when you use multiple nexi in one control group you cannot easily choose which one uses its chrono, possibly removing the 25energy from the nexus you wanted to store it. (while making it cheaper, e.g. 75energy would make it possible to nearly perma-PO) Also what ffadicted wrote about lategame. You could PO every Nexus without the presence/energy of an MsC then. Which could be even a buff to antidrop play. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Photon Overcharge casting range decreased to 7, down from 10. Photon Overcharge now lasts 45 seconds, down from 60. Range decreased to 12, down from 13. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
Personally, if I had to nerf PO, I would go with: Photon Overcharge casting range decreased to 7, down from 10. Photon Overcharge now lasts 45 seconds, down from 60. Range decreased to 12, down from 13 "I'm Pirfiktshon and I approve this message"  | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On December 03 2013 22:54 Big J wrote: Yeah, but I don't think the particular idea is a solution. In ZvP when you establish your natural or your 3rd, having the ability to immidiatly PO it immidiatly is a build-enabling thing. Similarily for PvP when you establish your natural. If you remove that, builds like Gateway expands may lose their viability. Also leaving it at 100energy when a nexus can only store 100energy is quite overboard. It means you cannot chrono at all with your Nexus, not to mention how you'd control chronoboost properly, since when you use multiple nexi in one control group you cannot easily choose which one uses its chrono, possibly removing the 25energy from the nexus you wanted to store it. (while making it cheaper, e.g. 75energy would make it possible to nearly perma-PO) Also what ffadicted wrote about lategame. You could PO every Nexus without the presence/energy of an MsC then. Which could be even a buff to antidrop play. Some good points you bring up. Would be very difficult to decide what it should cost and perhaps to good in the late game even though I dont think of todays PO is a bid deal when you have 3-3, just kind of ignore it tbh. But before that it could be a bit imba, like late mid game. Maybe the fix is as easy as just increasing the cost of MsC PO to 150? or 125? | ||
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:39 TheDwf wrote: Personally, if I had to nerf PO, I would go with: Photon Overcharge casting range decreased to 7, down from 10. Photon Overcharge now lasts 45 seconds, down from 60. Range decreased to 12, down from 13. Would not mind these. Heck, you can also increase energy cost of the PO so you cannot recall/overcharge. Range nerf might not be needed, since mutas and medivacs. Also worth considering duration nerf on time warp, fade time(?) on recall ability and so on. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:50 Ana_ wrote: Would not mind these. Heck, you can also increase energy cost of the PO so you cannot recall/overcharge. Range nerf might not be needed, since mutas and medivacs. Also worth considering duration nerf on time warp, fade time(?) on recall ability and so on. As a whole, I would do this for the MSC: Hit points decreased to 60/105, down from 60/135. Time Warp energy cost increased to 100. Time Warp slows ground units in its effect by 30%, down from 50%. Time Warp casting range decreased to 8, down from 9. Time Warp duration decreased to 20 seconds, down from 30. Sight range decreased to 10, down from 14. Photon Overcharge casting range decreased to 7, down from 10. Photon Overcharge now lasts 45 seconds, down from 60. Range decreased to 12. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On December 03 2013 23:54 TheDwf wrote: As a whole, I would do this for the MSC: Hit points decreased to 60/105, down from 60/135. Time Warp energy cost increased to 100. Time Warp slows ground units in its effect by 30%, down from 50%. Time Warp casting range decreased to 8, down from 9. Time Warp duration decreased to 20 seconds, down from 30. Sight range decreased to 10, down from 14. Photon Overcharge casting range decreased to 7, down from 10. Photon Overcharge now lasts 45 seconds, down from 60. Range decreased to 12. Wow, that's a lot of nerfs lol You want to keep decreasing sight and casting range of everything while also decreasing it's durability even though it's an already extremely slow, low-acceleration unit? Decrease the effectiveness of time warp almost halfed and making it last less time while increasing it's energy cost? You're going way overboard here. Only ones I'd be willing to look at would be range and longevity of the PO spell | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12475 Posts
On December 04 2013 00:46 ffadicted wrote: Wow, that's a lot of nerfs lol You want to keep decreasing sight and casting range of everything while also decreasing it's durability even though it's an already extremely slow, low-acceleration unit? Decrease the effectiveness of time warp almost halfed and making it last less time while increasing it's energy cost? You're going way overboard here. Only ones I'd be willing to look at would be range and longevity of the PO spell Tbh decreasing the sight range makes sense. I have no idea in what universe the MSC needs to see that much. As is to be expected with a TheDwf's proposition, there are good ideas, but it's taken a bit too far. If we can find some sort of middle ground, we can likely get a decent, solid msc nerf out of it. | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
MSC Utility is CRAZY CRAZY powerful for such a cheap unit that you can purchase quite early in the game...... | ||
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Pirfiktshon
United States1072 Posts
That's a hell of a lot of nerfs all at once...not sure Time Warp is that gamebreaking to need so much beating on to be honest. Pretty sure the main issue people have is Photon Overcharge Time warp is very game breaking in alot of early situation as Terran.... The utility in every all in can't be ignored it wins games where it definitely shouldn't..... I'm sure we have all seen the MSC TW bait into the oracle death..... Personally I hate the idea of the protoss CC spells. I want a game where I can micro and it matter not someone going T/F click you can't move = now you dead lol | ||
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