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On December 03 2013 10:54 Therapist. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:32 Faust852 wrote:On December 03 2013 10:17 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Photon Overcharge is awful for gameplay.
A Base Cannon for Protoss?
A base cannon...............for Protoss?
A base..........cannon.........?
A base cannon?
How about a Universal Shot Absorber to protect the base and workers from enemy
attacks throughout the game? This will allow for a greater longevity
of army and thusly then assure a victory over the other player.
Planetary Fortress. Lol. If only planetary fortress was 13 range. And also, protoss gets Photon Overcharge NO MATTER WHAT. There is no tradeoff and nothing better to do than get the mothership core and let it get energy to defend BOTH BASES simultaneously with a 13 range early game safety net. Terran is not going to get any planetary fortresses until much later, and even then you can do things like drop behind the mineral line and be out of range of the planetary. You can also attack planetary fortress with siege units like colossus or tempest... or anything air, since it only hits ground. Photon Overcharge has 13 range, targets anything, and is available with no tradeoff at all points of the game. There is no such argument as "Terran has planetary fortress, so therefore photon overcharge is fair and balanced!"
I never said that OverCharge is balanced, I think it's broken as shit and let the protoss play greedy as fuck without being stressed by any threat. But I just though funny to read "omg base cannon this is ridiculous" when terrans also have a pretty good base canon.
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On December 03 2013 10:32 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:52 Salient wrote:
No, they didn't. Blue Flame hellbats are still just as powerful as before in the mid-game. It is all about timing. It is like saying that Protoss shouldn't chrono their upgrades because they will get 3/3 anyways, just later. Having a timing is what Starcraft is all about. Imagine if storm took 90 seconds longer to research, don't you think that would change the game? Even if late game, it is the same.
Read what Iron wrote on the last page..you are completely out of touch with reality with that idea.
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On December 03 2013 07:37 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:34 Bagi wrote:On December 03 2013 07:19 ffadicted wrote:On December 03 2013 06:56 Bagi wrote:On December 03 2013 06:09 ffadicted wrote:On December 03 2013 05:50 Bagi wrote:On December 03 2013 05:24 ffadicted wrote:On December 03 2013 05:17 Lock0n wrote:
Have people seen the latest Aligulac balance report: It looks like there's a significant advantage for Protoss in the TvP matchup now at 55% win rate. The oracle change may have affected this, but it seems like a ton of pros are opening with oracles then transitioning into high templar.
At least, it looks like Blizzard will finally have to address the Protoss deathball and the hit a few late game storms and win mechanics in TvP finally. Storm will likely never be nerfed tbh If anything, they will buff terran lategame in some way to deal with it, and it'll likely be a mech buff considering the balance team seems to love mech so much. Terran should never win even-economy late games with bio against colossus-storm-archon deathball anyway, problem is it's hard for them to transition, and not much to transition TO (late game switch to mech is laughable) Balance team loves mech? Then how come it's never been viable? If anything an appropriate lategame balancing move would be to de-nerf ghost EMP AOE, either to where it was before the nerf or somewhere inbetween. Many korean terrans dont even bother with ghosts atm. Buffing EMP not really the way to go, I don't like the idea of matchup specific "bandaid" fixes (I'm looking at you spore crawler lol). Plus, the whole EMP vs. Feedback battle already has way too much of an impact on late game TvP How is buffing EMP not the way to go? If there's an easy solution that doesn't affect other match-ups then you would be an idiot not to take it. Its not like even creating weird new rules like with the spore crawler case. I mean, nerfing EMP sure seemed to be the way to go to buff protoss at in PvT at one point where it was struggling. Why not the opposite? Buffing EMP is such a short-sighted bandaid fix. It does nothing for the matchup. It leaves it in the sh*thole it is, does nothing to add more dynamic to it, and it will remain as stale as ever while MAYBE inching the matchup a bit closer to 50% in the most boring way. Let's try to do something better imo I'd argue it creates a lot more dynamic mid-lategame for protoss since they will actually want to go aggressive at some point to avoid fighting mass ghosts with good EMP. It creates a dynamic where protoss has the early and lategame whereas terran has the mid- and very late game. Its also a significant buff to mech TvP as mech hates immortals and archons more than anything. The problem with what you are asking for is a major shift in the match-up which will never happen with just a mere balance patch. Hell, Blizzard couldn't even break the MMM core when they had an entire expansion beta cycle with HOTS to adjust it. Blizzard is also much more careful these days, there hasn't been a single HOTS patch that would've really shaken up the meta like some of the WOL patches did (infestor, queen buffs come to mind). I hate the stale TvP meta as much as any terran but its not going to be fixed that easily. well, they erased hellbat play basically from the game outside of mech tvt. i would call that shaking up quite a bit.
To be fair, marauder hellbat was really a nice timing attack in the midgame, utilized by the like of such players like innovation. Late game, they were phased out for more maneuverable, flexible units like ghosts (to perform the "anti zealot" and anti caster role). They didn't really fill a design gap for bio-in fact, they were often just a way to denote free supply to the deathball as they attempted to waddle up to it. Bio isn't mean to tank shots, but to make use of scrappy play around mobility to win engagements.
The hellbat really only belongs in mech, where the tanks need a wall (and general harass through hellions) that doesn't have to run in the other direction when shit hits the fan!
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On December 03 2013 10:49 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
What would happen if Terran production buildings were 2x2 squares instead of 3x3 and addons only 1 square instead of 2x2?
It is easy to run out of room because of buildings, I wish that they would do this.
Also, as I saw posted sometime ago, make the add-on part itself switchable - allow
for player to switch side add-on sticks out on.
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On December 03 2013 12:44 WeddingEpisode wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:49 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
What would happen if Terran production buildings were 2x2 squares instead of 3x3 and addons only 1 square instead of 2x2? It is easy to run out of room because of buildings, I wish that they would do this.
I'll sound noob for saying this, but addons should be added to the side of the barracks with the most amount of space. Base management can suck for terran as he adds a ton of buildings, because he has to consider unit pathing and obstruction-quite a bit more so than the other races for that matter.
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Quick question though, has anyone discovered some new mech timings or all ins off two bases with banshee+tank+mine esque play? Just an inquiry. I'm looking for some new builds!
Granted, at my level, one could most likely win with pure sentries-or banelings. But it's nice to ask anyway!
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I think Ghosts need a buff. Perhaps increase their base damage so they're not useless after casting EMP and Snipes against HTs and Infestors.
Another problem with Terran late game against any matchup, like others have already mentioned, is that we can't transition. Protoss only needs 1 or 2 robotics facility at the most. 3 stargates constantly chrono boosting out VRs/Tempests is quite fast too. Terran, to make any tier 3 units, needs factories + starports with tech labs on them. And our tier 3 units (Thors, BCs, Ravens) take forever to build and also move super slow to boot. Hence why the infrastructure is already set up for MMM, there's really no viable transition.
Not to mention that MMM doesn't synergize well with Terran air anyway...not like Protoss where chargelots are an excellent mineral dump all game.
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On December 03 2013 10:32 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:17 WeddingEpisode wrote:
Photon Overcharge is awful for gameplay.
A Base Cannon for Protoss?
A base cannon...............for Protoss?
A base..........cannon.........?
A base cannon?
How about a Universal Shot Absorber to protect the base and workers from enemy
attacks throughout the game? This will allow for a greater longevity
of army and thusly then assure a victory over the other player.
Planetary Fortress. Lol.
if we get a temporary planetary for free on top of every orbital for a bit of energy we are good here! 
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On December 03 2013 12:30 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:32 vthree wrote:On December 03 2013 07:52 Salient wrote:
No, they didn't. Blue Flame hellbats are still just as powerful as before in the mid-game. It is all about timing. It is like saying that Protoss shouldn't chrono their upgrades because they will get 3/3 anyways, just later. Having a timing is what Starcraft is all about. Imagine if storm took 90 seconds longer to research, don't you think that would change the game? Even if late game, it is the same. Read what Iron wrote on the last page..you are completely out of touch with reality with that idea.
Re-read what I wrote please. I am agreeing with Iron. Having to research and getting a tech out later is a huge deal. I am trying to show Salient why just because a unit ends up the same in late game, it still changes the game.
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On December 03 2013 12:55 jojamon wrote:
I think Ghosts need a buff. Perhaps increase their base damage so they're not useless after casting EMP and Snipes against HTs and Infestors.
Another problem with Terran late game against any matchup, like others have already mentioned, is that we can't transition. Protoss only needs 1 or 2 robotics facility at the most. 3 stargates constantly chrono boosting out VRs/Tempests is quite fast too. Terran, to make any tier 3 units, needs factories + starports with tech labs on them. And our tier 3 units (Thors, BCs, Ravens) take forever to build and also move super slow to boot. Hence why the infrastructure is already set up for MMM, there's really no viable transition.
Not to mention that MMM doesn't synergize well with Terran air anyway...not like Protoss where chargelots are an excellent mineral dump all game.
Terrans production infrastructure is definitely a big issue in the late game.
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I think there should be a late game upgrade than combines reactors and tech labs together. Idc if it costs 300/300 and takes 180 seconds, it would help out so much late game. Double marauder or ghost production would be so nice vs protoss
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On December 03 2013 13:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
I think there should be a late game upgrade than combines reactors and tech labs together. Idc if it costs 300/300 and takes 180 seconds, it would help out so much late game. Double marauder or ghost production would be so nice vs protoss
What. Sorry but I don't think this would help. Late game vs toss is very limited in gas unlike current TvZ and the rate limiting step is not because terrans need to double up their rax's with tech labs. In fact most rax late game TvP are tech labs instead of reactors and econ is much more of a limit in the number of raxes with tech labs rather than the production rate cap.
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Best ghost buff would be a back up to 150/150.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
Im not a T player and not a balance team member and im not crying/whining. Just asking: what do u think guys about little zealot nerf? Maybe charge nerf? Or it would broke other aspects?
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On December 03 2013 03:04 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 02:35 Pirfiktshon wrote:Terran dominated WCS in 2013. Zerg was grossly underrepresented at Blizzcon due to overpowered Hellbats and to a much lesser extent widow mines. Let's see if the Terran dominance finally subsides in 2014. I don't think we are going to see terran dominance subside.. its to rewarding to be a good terran player. Seriously it doesn't matter how many nerfs you give To Terran Taeja would win anyways.... I think if we made it so marines had 1 HP and did 1 Damage per shot he would still come out with the big W on his tournaments or atleast place really high Its not the race respect the player Well Mvp managed to get the terran race nerfed numerous times, lets see for how many times Taeja goes. So far none. Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 02:54 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 02:26 Salient wrote:On December 03 2013 02:21 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 03 2013 02:14 Salient wrote:On December 03 2013 02:09 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 03 2013 02:08 Salient wrote:On December 03 2013 01:56 Hider wrote:On December 02 2013 19:59 Salient wrote:On December 02 2013 19:30 Grovbolle wrote:http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/New numbers are out: PvT (55.05%) 812 games PvZ (49.72%) 1265 games TvZ (48.63%) 769 games Whine initiated. Zerg is back. Someone wake Stephano from hibernation! Just kidding, the numbers look pretty much balanced around Blizzard's +5/-5 criteria. Not really. These numbers will eventually go towards 50-50 as well (just as blizzard's ladder stats), and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. The only thing that really strikes my eye is how underrepresented terran is on the tournament scene with much fewer games played. This once against signals that terran is hugely underrepresented at the competitive/pro level. There are roughly 50% less terran games than with the other races which signals a giant imbalance - similarly to what we see on the ladder. It's really a shame that Blizzard doesn't have a proper system in place for interpreting results in a meaningufl way. With a proper stastistic, terran's adjusted w/r would likely be below 40%. Terran dominated WCS in 2013. Zerg was grossly underrepresented at Blizzcon due to overpowered Hellbats and to a much lesser extent widow mines. Let's see if the Terran dominance finally subsides in 2014. So we wait for the next Blizzcon. How about no. You can QQ all you want. But the fact remains that the game has never been more balanced at the pro level. It's not QQ to suggest that having a) a year to wait to judge balance, and b) to base it on an arbitrary measure of points won at tournaments, is silly. I agreed and argued that the game was as balanced as it has been several months ago. The recent Aligulac clearly shows that the trend is changing. First of all, that report represents a short time period so you can't draw conclusions from it. Second, it shows all matchups within a rounded +5/-5, which is Blizzard's target and probably corresponds to the margin of error. +-2 is better than +-5. They had +-2 made some changes and now they have +-5. Over year ago they had all matchups at 50% and then decided to buff quenns. The queen buff was required since back then all the terran needed to do was park a couple hellions near the natural of the zerg and it would take ages just to get a third since nothing could kill them and if you chased them, they would run in your base and roast your drones by the time you get back. We had 2base zerg vs 3base terran for gods sake.
Not really since all you required was to build a roach warren and some roaches. If you played like Life with fast speed and more lings, you could even do it without the roach warren. The problem was that zergs were complaining that making a few roaches somehow puts them behind too much.The tradeoff between making a few roaches and having much earlier third was probably worth it. But instead they got the ability to defend helions with just queens which cost no gas and more importantly no larva. This rendered that decision making between units and drones way in favor of drones for zerg and they were able to saturate 3 bases very fast.
That basically killed all timings in TvZ except for 2-2 marine-tank timing before hive to kill a 4th and caused that infestor-broodlord era.
If you go to Aligulac, you can see that from May 2012 to March 2013, zerg was convincingly highest in overall performance of all three races.
How does this relate to Hots? Well, history has shown us that Blizzard shouldn't do balance changes when the game approaches almost ideal balance across the board.
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On December 03 2013 07:19 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:56 Bagi wrote:On December 03 2013 06:09 ffadicted wrote:On December 03 2013 05:50 Bagi wrote:On December 03 2013 05:24 ffadicted wrote:On December 03 2013 05:17 Lock0n wrote:
Have people seen the latest Aligulac balance report: It looks like there's a significant advantage for Protoss in the TvP matchup now at 55% win rate. The oracle change may have affected this, but it seems like a ton of pros are opening with oracles then transitioning into high templar.
At least, it looks like Blizzard will finally have to address the Protoss deathball and the hit a few late game storms and win mechanics in TvP finally. Storm will likely never be nerfed tbh If anything, they will buff terran lategame in some way to deal with it, and it'll likely be a mech buff considering the balance team seems to love mech so much. Terran should never win even-economy late games with bio against colossus-storm-archon deathball anyway, problem is it's hard for them to transition, and not much to transition TO (late game switch to mech is laughable) Balance team loves mech? Then how come it's never been viable? If anything an appropriate lategame balancing move would be to de-nerf ghost EMP AOE, either to where it was before the nerf or somewhere inbetween. Many korean terrans dont even bother with ghosts atm. Buffing EMP not really the way to go, I don't like the idea of matchup specific "bandaid" fixes (I'm looking at you spore crawler lol). Plus, the whole EMP vs. Feedback battle already has way too much of an impact on late game TvP How is buffing EMP not the way to go? If there's an easy solution that doesn't affect other match-ups then you would be an idiot not to take it. Its not like even creating weird new rules like with the spore crawler case. I mean, nerfing EMP sure seemed to be the way to go to buff protoss at in PvT at one point where it was struggling. Why not the opposite? Buffing EMP is such a short-sighted bandaid fix. It does nothing for the matchup. It leaves it in the sh*thole it is, does nothing to add more dynamic to it, and it will remain as stale as ever while MAYBE inching the matchup a bit closer to 50% in the most boring way. Let's try to do something better imo
I think a nerf to MSC offensive capabilities would go a long way. Like making time warp researchable. Not sure what else can be done.
Blizzard did the same thing when they realized bunker rushes were too strong.
Early game defense for protoss is probably needed because of PvP. However, even though I don't watch a lot of PvP, I watched all of them at Dreamhack and protoss players were still preferring one base aggression instead of fast expanding, so not sure if PO and MSC solved anything.
It is questionable if PvP can really be fixed because making them more defensive hurts other matchups, especially TvP and the main problem of PvP will always be warp gates and lack of defenders advantage.
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Canada16217 Posts
On December 03 2013 16:45 wishr wrote:
Im not a T player and not a balance team member and im not crying/whining. Just asking: what do u think guys about little zealot nerf? Maybe charge nerf? Or it would broke other aspects?
Zealots are not the unit that should be nerfed.
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Or nerf/remove ghost damage, and make them cheaper.
Ghost damage is completely irrelevant because the sorts of positions you need to take with the ghosts means they will die, and all you are really doing is just trading them. Their DPS contribution is totally irrelevant.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
On December 03 2013 17:01 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 16:45 wishr wrote:
Im not a T player and not a balance team member and im not crying/whining. Just asking: what do u think guys about little zealot nerf? Maybe charge nerf? Or it would broke other aspects? Zealots are not the unit that should be nerfed.
This is best reply i ever seen 
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On December 03 2013 17:09 architecture wrote:
Or nerf/remove ghost damage, and make them cheaper.
Ghost damage is completely irrelevant because the sorts of positions you need to take with the ghosts means they will die, and all you are really doing is just trading them. Their DPS contribution is totally irrelevant.
For real ? In lategame with +3/+3 when you have a lot of them, they have an isane DPS, plus they can cloak.
They are the real deal vs Zealots warpin' since you won't have that much marines in the lategame.
On December 03 2013 17:10 wishr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 17:01 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 03 2013 16:45 wishr wrote:
Im not a T player and not a balance team member and im not crying/whining. Just asking: what do u think guys about little zealot nerf? Maybe charge nerf? Or it would broke other aspects? Zealots are not the unit that should be nerfed. This is best reply i ever seen
You can't nerf core units, it would break the game on so many level.
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EPT
