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On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend?
Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly)
To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. I'd say that it's a good start if the stargate is used in the further game (PvZ) and a not-so-good start because of the heavy gas investment of stargate tech if it's not used (PvT). That's probably why a follow-up gateway+stargate allin is so powerful, it follows the natural flow of one base play vs terran.
But, as a WoL-earlydays-protoss (I'm zerg now), it fills me with joy - since I still remember the power of 1-1-1 
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On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions.
Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned.
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On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned.
Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)?
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On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned.
It depends a lot on the situation, so this isn't really a discussion worth doing. Too many variables. I as a zerg have hard times vs. protoss, but that's a personal issue. I subjectively hate protoss but I wouldn't go as far and say it's imbalanced. Void Rays aren't too strong, the problem is just that they enforce a turtleing playstyle. Combine that with a recall (just seen: hero sniping jd's 4th with 5 voidray (!) and recalls back) and it's almost op. Combine that then with storm, forcefields and superb control... oh gosh.
______
on the hellion drop: I think that hellion drop, if you only get like 4 workers, even if you get out, is too much of a commitment in early game to not have a small disadvantage going into midgame, whatever matchup
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protoss should go oracle every single game vs terran
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On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)?
Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base.
You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see.
And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front.
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On November 29 2013 06:54 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. It depends a lot on the situation, so this isn't really a discussion worth doing. Too many variables. I as a zerg have hard times vs. protoss, but that's a personal issue. I subjectively hate protoss but I wouldn't go as far and say it's imbalanced. Void Rays aren't too strong, the problem is just that they enforce a turtleing playstyle. Combine that with a recall (just seen: hero sniping jd's 4th with 5 voidray (!) and recalls back) and it's almost op. Combine that then with storm, forcefields and superb control... oh gosh. ______ on the hellion drop: I think that hellion drop, if you only get like 4 workers, even if you get out, is too much of a commitment in early game to not have a small disadvantage going into midgame, whatever matchup
That's exactly what I said: the same goes for an oracle opening. If you get only 4 kills total with an oracle rush, you are behind as protoss.
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On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front.
Why do people bring up GomTvT and or Lings of Liberty and shit like that as if it's relevant in the current game?
Protoss no longer have to do the zealot/stalker poke to figure out Terran 1/1/1 or other all-ins - thanks to mothership core. The fact that Terran has to make perfect scout isn't balanced by the fact that Protoss used to have to do that back in WoL. That kind of nonsense just shows your bias and idiocy.
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On November 29 2013 07:00 plogamer wrote:
Why do people bring up GomTvT and or Lings of Liberty and shit like that as if it's relevant in the current game?
@whitewing Protoss no longer have to do the zealot/stalker poke to figure out Terran 1/1/1 or other all-ins - thanks to mothership core. The fact that Terran has to make perfect scout isn't balanced by the fact that Protoss used to have to do that.
That's not a balance issue, it's a design issue. It used to be that terran never had to scout protoss at all because there was little to nothing toss could really do to punish a safe terran build in any way, regardless of tech path, while toss had to be scouting constantly to deal with the wide variety of terran aggressive options. These roles are reversed, but that's not an comment on balance. In games, sometimes you have to take a certain role or posture depending on the matchup or game state, it just so happens that in TvP early game, terran has to scout heavily. I didn't mean that Protoss used to have to do it so that justifies terran having to do it, it was simply an example of the scouting I'm talking about and providing evidence that it works. I reached to toss because that's what I have experience with.
And toss does indeed have an easier time scouting now then they used to, but so does terran: it just so happens that terran didn't used to have to scout, now they do.
Regardless, when scouting proxy oracle: at any given game state, your opponents expenditures are limited by his total resources gathered. If you can approximate the resources he's gained and estimate the value of what you can see, you can intuit the existence of hidden structures or units. This is easy to do in the early game. It does get harder later on, but by then proxy oracle isn't much of a threat. If he's got 2 gas geysers going with 3 workers each from early on and you don't see a tech structure or a bunch of sentries, there's most likely a hidden stargate or dark shrine or something.
Scouting is about more than about seeing everything: it's about seeing enough to make a judgment on what you should do. You do sometimes need to think while playing.
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On November 29 2013 06:57 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:54 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. It depends a lot on the situation, so this isn't really a discussion worth doing. Too many variables. I as a zerg have hard times vs. protoss, but that's a personal issue. I subjectively hate protoss but I wouldn't go as far and say it's imbalanced. Void Rays aren't too strong, the problem is just that they enforce a turtleing playstyle. Combine that with a recall (just seen: hero sniping jd's 4th with 5 voidray (!) and recalls back) and it's almost op. Combine that then with storm, forcefields and superb control... oh gosh. ______ on the hellion drop: I think that hellion drop, if you only get like 4 workers, even if you get out, is too much of a commitment in early game to not have a small disadvantage going into midgame, whatever matchup That's exactly what I said: the same goes for an oracle opening. If you get only 4 kills total with an oracle rush, you are behind as protoss.
This is plain wrong, there's still the thread of the returning oracle, gathering up another 4 workers which are guaranteed. You do not have that impact with hellions in like 99% of situations. Also, while hellions do not have much use besides harassment (temporary) in tvp, you'll still be able to use the oracle for detecting banshees - and even revelation.
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Toss has always had options of attacking terran early, even in wings. The need for protoss to scout terran agression, and terran agression being strong was balanced by protoss having a stronger lategame, so doing damage early kept the game even as it got later.
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On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front.
Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference.
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On November 29 2013 07:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 07:00 plogamer wrote:
Why do people bring up GomTvT and or Lings of Liberty and shit like that as if it's relevant in the current game?
@whitewing Protoss no longer have to do the zealot/stalker poke to figure out Terran 1/1/1 or other all-ins - thanks to mothership core. The fact that Terran has to make perfect scout isn't balanced by the fact that Protoss used to have to do that. That's not a balance issue, it's a design issue. It used to be that terran never had to scout protoss at all because there was little to nothing toss could really do to punish a safe terran build in any way, regardless of tech path, while toss had to be scouting constantly to deal with the wide variety of terran aggressive options. These roles are reversed, but that's not an comment on balance. In games, sometimes you have to take a certain role or posture depending on the matchup or game state, it just so happens that in TvP early game, terran has to scout heavily. I didn't mean that Protoss used to have to do it so that justifies terran having to do it, it was simply an example of the scouting I'm talking about and providing evidence that it works. I reached to toss because that's what I have experience with. And toss does indeed have an easier time scouting now then they used to, but so does terran: it just so happens that terran didn't used to have to scout, now they do. Regardless, when scouting proxy oracle: at any given game state, your opponents expenditures are limited by his total resources gathered. If you can approximate the resources he's gained and estimate the value of what you can see, you can intuit the existence of hidden structures or units. This is easy to do in the early game. It does get harder later on, but by then proxy oracle isn't much of a threat. If he's got 2 gas geysers going with 3 workers each from early on and you don't see a tech structure or a bunch of sentries, there's most likely a hidden stargate or dark shrine or something.
The "design" issue is leading to a "balance" issue. They are not mutually exclusive. You're just arguing semantics about what kind of issue is at play here.
If you think it's fair, design issue or balance issue, then salute and good day. Because that's what you seem to be arguing.
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On November 29 2013 07:09 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:57 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:54 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. It depends a lot on the situation, so this isn't really a discussion worth doing. Too many variables. I as a zerg have hard times vs. protoss, but that's a personal issue. I subjectively hate protoss but I wouldn't go as far and say it's imbalanced. Void Rays aren't too strong, the problem is just that they enforce a turtleing playstyle. Combine that with a recall (just seen: hero sniping jd's 4th with 5 voidray (!) and recalls back) and it's almost op. Combine that then with storm, forcefields and superb control... oh gosh. ______ on the hellion drop: I think that hellion drop, if you only get like 4 workers, even if you get out, is too much of a commitment in early game to not have a small disadvantage going into midgame, whatever matchup That's exactly what I said: the same goes for an oracle opening. If you get only 4 kills total with an oracle rush, you are behind as protoss. This is plain wrong, there's still the thread of the returning oracle, gathering up another 4 workers which are guaranteed. You do not have that impact with hellions in like 99% of situations. Also, while hellions do not have much use besides harassment (temporary) in tvp, you'll still be able to use the oracle for detecting banshees - and even revelation.
Yes, there's the threat of returning hellions if they get away, just like the oracle. If 4 hellions drop early, get 4 of my workers and bail out, terran is behind, but you'd better be damn sure I'm leaving stalkers in my main constantly and taking a defensive posture to ensure my lead is held. The same is exactly true for an oracle rush. Also, when the hell does a terran respond to oracle opening with cloak banshee? I've never once seen a game where this happens. Terrans don't really go cloak banshee vs. toss at all, and that has nothing to do with the oracle, but with the fact that the standard for protoss is an early robo so they get observers out in time specifically in case of things like cloak banshee. And the hellions definitely do have a use, you can put them in your army or drop them later, or turn them into hellbats or something. You get mech weapons upgrades when you upgrade your vikings now, a hellion opening would transition quite nicely into a hellbat/bio mid-game.
I stand by my previous statement: if you open oracle and only get a few worker kills, you are behind as protoss vs. terran, despite the fact that you did some damage. 4 worker kills is not enough damage for a one base oracle opener. If it's after nexus, your opponent should have a much easier time preventing even 4 worker kills, not to mention 4 worker kills at that point is significantly less impactful than it was on one base. (losing 4 workers when you have 20 hurts a lot, losing 4 when you have 30 is substantially less impactful).
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On November 29 2013 07:13 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 07:03 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:00 plogamer wrote:
Why do people bring up GomTvT and or Lings of Liberty and shit like that as if it's relevant in the current game?
@whitewing Protoss no longer have to do the zealot/stalker poke to figure out Terran 1/1/1 or other all-ins - thanks to mothership core. The fact that Terran has to make perfect scout isn't balanced by the fact that Protoss used to have to do that. That's not a balance issue, it's a design issue. It used to be that terran never had to scout protoss at all because there was little to nothing toss could really do to punish a safe terran build in any way, regardless of tech path, while toss had to be scouting constantly to deal with the wide variety of terran aggressive options. These roles are reversed, but that's not an comment on balance. In games, sometimes you have to take a certain role or posture depending on the matchup or game state, it just so happens that in TvP early game, terran has to scout heavily. I didn't mean that Protoss used to have to do it so that justifies terran having to do it, it was simply an example of the scouting I'm talking about and providing evidence that it works. I reached to toss because that's what I have experience with. And toss does indeed have an easier time scouting now then they used to, but so does terran: it just so happens that terran didn't used to have to scout, now they do. Regardless, when scouting proxy oracle: at any given game state, your opponents expenditures are limited by his total resources gathered. If you can approximate the resources he's gained and estimate the value of what you can see, you can intuit the existence of hidden structures or units. This is easy to do in the early game. It does get harder later on, but by then proxy oracle isn't much of a threat. If he's got 2 gas geysers going with 3 workers each from early on and you don't see a tech structure or a bunch of sentries, there's most likely a hidden stargate or dark shrine or something. The "design" issue is leading to a "balance" issue. They are not mutually exclusive. You're just arguing semantics about what kind of issue is at play here. If you think it's fair, design issue or balance issue, then salute and good day. Because that's what you seem to be arguing.
What, that terran has to scout? They were given a much better reaper for scouting specifically to help with that, and they have scans. They have plenty of scouting tools, I don't see a balance problem with having to scout. It's fair, there is no balance issue with one race having to scout at certain times. PvZ zergs have to scout the toss at certain times, and toss has to be constantly scouting for a muta switch or hive. TvZ terran has to be constantly aware of a possible hive switch or he could outright die to ultras from a lack of marauders or to broods from a lack of vikings. That's just the way matchups work: there are points in time where one race has to be scouting for specific things. That's not unfair or imbalanced: it would be unfair or imbalanced if that scouting was nearly impossible regardless of effort applied.
It's not semantics: I'm stating that there is no imbalance caused by this particular problem, merely that it seems that all that is being said is that there is dislike for the design choices. If you don't like the design of the game, that's one thing, but that does not imply imbalance.
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On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference.
Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust?
Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible.
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On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible.
No one is arguing that it is impossible. It is just difficult while protoss just sits back, greedy and safe and blind.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 29 2013 07:28 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. No one is arguing that it is impossible. It is just difficult while protoss just sits back, greedy and safe and blind.
Yeah, it certainly can be difficult sometimes, but you definitely have the tools to do it, and it doesn't take godly APM or anything, just practice and understanding of the protoss player's limitations at a given gamestate. That does not make in unbalanced or unfair. Ask this question: could a pro player accomplish this reliably with practice? If the answer is yes, then there is no imbalance at the relevant level.
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On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible.
Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate.
Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know...
There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing.
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On November 29 2013 07:09 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 06:57 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:54 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. It depends a lot on the situation, so this isn't really a discussion worth doing. Too many variables. I as a zerg have hard times vs. protoss, but that's a personal issue. I subjectively hate protoss but I wouldn't go as far and say it's imbalanced. Void Rays aren't too strong, the problem is just that they enforce a turtleing playstyle. Combine that with a recall (just seen: hero sniping jd's 4th with 5 voidray (!) and recalls back) and it's almost op. Combine that then with storm, forcefields and superb control... oh gosh. ______ on the hellion drop: I think that hellion drop, if you only get like 4 workers, even if you get out, is too much of a commitment in early game to not have a small disadvantage going into midgame, whatever matchup That's exactly what I said: the same goes for an oracle opening. If you get only 4 kills total with an oracle rush, you are behind as protoss. This is plain wrong, there's still the thread of the returning oracle, gathering up another 4 workers which are guaranteed. You do not have that impact with hellions in like 99% of situations. Also, while hellions do not have much use besides harassment (temporary) in tvp, you'll still be able to use the oracle for detecting banshees - and even revelation.
Expanding on that... P has great counters to hellions before they even arrive (including being able to simcity or ff). Terran has marines or static defense - both of which are easy to avoid (or kill a few marines and come back with a second oracle). P will also be safe at home to expand with MSC after stargate (since P doesn't seem need gateway units in the early game anyway). Also, any hellion opening will have an even harder time holding an oracle opening.
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