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On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level.
And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time.
And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker.
And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass.
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On November 29 2013 07:18 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 07:13 plogamer wrote:On November 29 2013 07:03 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:00 plogamer wrote:
Why do people bring up GomTvT and or Lings of Liberty and shit like that as if it's relevant in the current game?
@whitewing Protoss no longer have to do the zealot/stalker poke to figure out Terran 1/1/1 or other all-ins - thanks to mothership core. The fact that Terran has to make perfect scout isn't balanced by the fact that Protoss used to have to do that. That's not a balance issue, it's a design issue. It used to be that terran never had to scout protoss at all because there was little to nothing toss could really do to punish a safe terran build in any way, regardless of tech path, while toss had to be scouting constantly to deal with the wide variety of terran aggressive options. These roles are reversed, but that's not an comment on balance. In games, sometimes you have to take a certain role or posture depending on the matchup or game state, it just so happens that in TvP early game, terran has to scout heavily. I didn't mean that Protoss used to have to do it so that justifies terran having to do it, it was simply an example of the scouting I'm talking about and providing evidence that it works. I reached to toss because that's what I have experience with. And toss does indeed have an easier time scouting now then they used to, but so does terran: it just so happens that terran didn't used to have to scout, now they do. Regardless, when scouting proxy oracle: at any given game state, your opponents expenditures are limited by his total resources gathered. If you can approximate the resources he's gained and estimate the value of what you can see, you can intuit the existence of hidden structures or units. This is easy to do in the early game. It does get harder later on, but by then proxy oracle isn't much of a threat. If he's got 2 gas geysers going with 3 workers each from early on and you don't see a tech structure or a bunch of sentries, there's most likely a hidden stargate or dark shrine or something. The "design" issue is leading to a "balance" issue. They are not mutually exclusive. You're just arguing semantics about what kind of issue is at play here. If you think it's fair, design issue or balance issue, then salute and good day. Because that's what you seem to be arguing. What, that terran has to scout? They were given a much better reaper for scouting specifically to help with that, and they have scans. They have plenty of scouting tools, I don't see a balance problem with having to scout. It's fair, there is no balance issue with one race having to scout at certain times. PvZ zergs have to scout the toss at certain times, and toss has to be constantly scouting for a muta switch or hive. TvZ terran has to be constantly aware of a possible hive switch or he could outright die to ultras from a lack of marauders or to broods from a lack of vikings. That's just the way matchups work: there are points in time where one race has to be scouting for specific things. That's not unfair or imbalanced: it would be unfair or imbalanced if that scouting was nearly impossible regardless of effort applied. It's not semantics: I'm stating that there is no imbalance caused by this particular problem, merely that it seems that all that is being said is that there is dislike for the design choices. If you don't like the design of the game, that's one thing, but that does not imply imbalance.
Being forced to use scans to scout protoss in the early-mid game is hardly fair. Toss can chrono boost probes and get worker lead on Terran every game, without mules there is no way to combat this. Especially when toss is opening stargate every game and killing either scvs or marines automatically. The only thing toss really has to scout for is proxy 12/12 to see if uber cheese is coming, they already are building the tools to deal with everything else. And design of the game is the basis of all imbalance. Its true that design does not automatically imply imbalace, but flawed design IS the central issue when it comes to discussing it.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 29 2013 07:37 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate. Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know... There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing.
If he's banking gas that early that's usually pretty bad for toss, so assuming a proxy stargate doesn't exactly hurt you. If he's making observers out of the robo (75 gas each) and has stalkers or sentries on the field, it's pretty damn hard to afford an early stargate like that. You're just making excuses. Yes, it's hard, yes it takes practice, but saying "it could just be banked" is meaningless. Yeah you can mine money and not spend it, but you have to account for what could be the case, not for necessarily what IS the case. If you assume he's banking it and then don't account for oracles and die to them, that's your error. What, you send in the reaper, see a lot of gas mined, and assume "he's not going to spend this for at least 2 minuts?"
Toss doesn't take a fast third vs. terran because medivacs would usually destroy them on most maps, not because 12 marines will outright kill them at that timing. And again, you don't need to be back unless you suspect a possible stargate, if you see no gas usage, go ahead and pressure. But if toss is doing 3 workers on both geysers early on and has the gas to go stargate after everything else you've seen, you can be pretty sure they aren't taking a 6' 3rd nexus. Not to mention if he did your reaper could easily spot it (or your factory if you sent it over there) and then you could punish it.
Your first marine poke is mostly just to make him waste an overcharge, it doesn't have much other purpose. If you suspect possible oracles, you're much better off holding them back and not forcing an overcharge than losing a bunch of workers.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass.
Blink builds do fine vs immortal builds as long as you micro carefully and go in for the kill early and keep the immortal count low. One pops: kill it quick. One immortal won't stop blink stalkers. If he gets to 3, you're pretty dead though.
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On November 29 2013 08:59 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 07:37 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:On November 29 2013 05:03 larse wrote:
SOS vs Taeja Game 1. So balanced.
Oracle and Toss are so broken.
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend? Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate. Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know... There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing. If he's banking gas that early that's usually pretty bad for toss, so assuming a proxy stargate doesn't exactly hurt you. If he's making observers out of the robo (75 gas each) and has stalkers or sentries on the field, it's pretty damn hard to afford an early stargate like that. You're just making excuses. Yes, it's hard, yes it takes practice, but saying "it could just be banked" is meaningless. Yeah you can mine money and not spend it, but you have to account for what could be the case, not for necessarily what IS the case. If you assume he's banking it and then don't account for oracles and die to them, that's your error. Toss doesn't take a fast third vs. terran because medivacs would usually destroy them on most maps, not because 12 marines will outright kill them at that timing. And again, you don't need to be back unless you suspect a possible stargate, if you see no gas usage, go ahead and pressure. But if toss is doing 3 workers on both geysers early on and has the gas to go stargate after everything else you've seen, you can be pretty sure they aren't taking a 6' nexus, it's too expensive.
It's painful to read the same empty words from low level Protoss each time you point out coinflip issues in TvP. "You should have known that this geyser having 2204 instead of 2244 meant DTs, you should have magically guessed if the missing proxied building was Stargate, Council or Council + Dark shrine, you should have built x and y because better be safe than sorry, blabla, blabla". Your understanding of TvP is just too low to get the picture. Keep thinking Terrans are just bad at scouting and everything is right.
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On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass.
So by that token, mech Terran with tanks should rofl stomp Protoss, right? Not only do tanks move slowly, they have to siege as well. And tank marine should rofl stomp ling bling muta?
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On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass.
The only reason i play like this is because it's the optimal way to play mech because siege tanks are extremely hard countered and arguably are not as cost efficient as they should be.
I played a similar style in brood war but i could actually attack across the map and do slow tank pushes because of mines + tanks that were able to kill things. You used to be able to do that in SC2 until blizzard decided they hated the siege tank and massively nerfed it's damage.
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On November 29 2013 09:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass. So by that token, mech Terran with tanks should rofl stomp Protoss, right? Not only do tanks move slowly, they have to siege as well. And tank marine should rofl stomp ling bling muta?
Yes marine tank should rofl stomp ling bling muta..if the terran can deny the muta harass long enough and pull their entire army together for a push. The problem with that is its hard to siege the tanks in time to get ready for the swarm while also pushing fast enough to force the zerg to engage instead of allowing Zerg to use stalling tactics and backstabs with parts of their army while Terrans army is all out in the field. If the Terran subsequently send out a strong portion of their army while leaving some at home for defense, the zerg can then send their entire army to face the offensive part of the Terrans, thereby gaining numerical superiority and a much better chance of at least crippling the strength of the attack if not utterly destroying it.This should not guarantee either side a victory, and comes down to who has the higher skill level having a better chance to win.The heart of the matchup therefore becomes based around mind games rather than one unit comp just destroying another.
As far as mech TvP the immortal hard counters it as ive already said, and therefore my assumptions were based on the Terran going bio.
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On November 29 2013 09:05 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass. Blink builds do fine vs immortal builds as long as you micro carefully and go in for the kill early and keep the immortal count low. One pops: kill it quick. One immortal won't stop blink stalkers. If he gets to 3, you're pretty dead though.
One immortal and an overcharge will though, correct? And then by the time overcharge wears at least another immortal will have popped, if not two (with constant chronoboost).
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dont know if this is in the right thread to talk about this so sorry ahead of time
in my opinion, david kim or blizzard, as a whole, looks at the percentage of how each race won.
what they probably do not look at is how each race is won (mass units, early/mid/late game, etc).
void rays are an example in which i dont see why its not being nerfed yet.
prismatic alignment does damage to everything! so mind as well toss just masses up while defending with cannons and zealots...
but because protoss has a win % of about 50%, they dont do anything to it...
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On November 29 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:37 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:On November 29 2013 05:04 keglu wrote:
[quote]
Because it kills workers when there is nothing to defend?
Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly) To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate. Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know... There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing. If he's banking gas that early that's usually pretty bad for toss, so assuming a proxy stargate doesn't exactly hurt you. If he's making observers out of the robo (75 gas each) and has stalkers or sentries on the field, it's pretty damn hard to afford an early stargate like that. You're just making excuses. Yes, it's hard, yes it takes practice, but saying "it could just be banked" is meaningless. Yeah you can mine money and not spend it, but you have to account for what could be the case, not for necessarily what IS the case. If you assume he's banking it and then don't account for oracles and die to them, that's your error. Toss doesn't take a fast third vs. terran because medivacs would usually destroy them on most maps, not because 12 marines will outright kill them at that timing. And again, you don't need to be back unless you suspect a possible stargate, if you see no gas usage, go ahead and pressure. But if toss is doing 3 workers on both geysers early on and has the gas to go stargate after everything else you've seen, you can be pretty sure they aren't taking a 6' nexus, it's too expensive. It's painful to read the same empty words from low level Protoss each time you point out coinflip issues in TvP. "You should have known that this geyser having 2204 instead of 2244 meant DTs, you should have magically guessed if the missing proxied building was Stargate, Council or Council + Dark shrine, you should have built x and y because better be safe than sorry, blabla, blabla". Your understanding of TvP is just too low to get the picture. Keep thinking Terrans are just bad at scouting and everything is right.
Thank you... I was about to flip out reading all of these protoss players pretend that it doesn't suck completely to have to guess what they are doing regardless of what we scout as Terran. Do they not understand that the response to each thing is completely different? Do they not realize that if we fall even slightly behind their VASTLY superior late game army will roll right over us? TvP is broken, and time will show us that it is just about as bad as TvZ in late WOL. I guess we will just have to be patient and wait it out until it becomes so obvious that it can not be refuted.
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On November 29 2013 10:10 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 09:05 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass. Blink builds do fine vs immortal builds as long as you micro carefully and go in for the kill early and keep the immortal count low. One pops: kill it quick. One immortal won't stop blink stalkers. If he gets to 3, you're pretty dead though. One immortal and an overcharge will though, correct? And then by the time overcharge wears at least another immortal will have popped, if not two (with constant chronoboost).
Constantly chronoboosted Immortals take 37 seconds to build. So two is 74 seconds assuming back to back production with consistent chrono. Photon overcharge lasts 60 seconds.
Not trying to make any point with this, haven't even read your whole discussion. Just throwing the numbers out there. 
On November 29 2013 12:55 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:37 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:47 boxerfred wrote:
[quote]
Oracle is an instant and guaranteed 4-6 workers kill, even with instant reaction (assumed it's played early game PvX in a situation where both players micro perfectly)
To be constructive: that does not mean by any means that this gives protoss an instant win. The worker/oracle loss can of course snowball in both directions. Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate. Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know... There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing. If he's banking gas that early that's usually pretty bad for toss, so assuming a proxy stargate doesn't exactly hurt you. If he's making observers out of the robo (75 gas each) and has stalkers or sentries on the field, it's pretty damn hard to afford an early stargate like that. You're just making excuses. Yes, it's hard, yes it takes practice, but saying "it could just be banked" is meaningless. Yeah you can mine money and not spend it, but you have to account for what could be the case, not for necessarily what IS the case. If you assume he's banking it and then don't account for oracles and die to them, that's your error. Toss doesn't take a fast third vs. terran because medivacs would usually destroy them on most maps, not because 12 marines will outright kill them at that timing. And again, you don't need to be back unless you suspect a possible stargate, if you see no gas usage, go ahead and pressure. But if toss is doing 3 workers on both geysers early on and has the gas to go stargate after everything else you've seen, you can be pretty sure they aren't taking a 6' nexus, it's too expensive. It's painful to read the same empty words from low level Protoss each time you point out coinflip issues in TvP. "You should have known that this geyser having 2204 instead of 2244 meant DTs, you should have magically guessed if the missing proxied building was Stargate, Council or Council + Dark shrine, you should have built x and y because better be safe than sorry, blabla, blabla". Your understanding of TvP is just too low to get the picture. Keep thinking Terrans are just bad at scouting and everything is right. Thank you... I was about to flip out reading all of these protoss players pretend that it doesn't suck completely to have to guess what they are doing regardless of what we scout as Terran. Do they not understand that the response to each thing is completely different? Do they not realize that if we fall even slightly behind their VASTLY superior late game army will roll right over us? TvP is broken, and time will show us that it is just about as bad as TvZ in late WOL. I guess we will just have to be patient and wait it out until it becomes so obvious that it can not be refuted.
My word...this is like reading something from two years ago when stuff like the 1-1-1 was in fashion but with the races inverted. I think you'll probably find most Protoss who have played for any length of time DO know how much it sucks to be murdered by an unscouted build. But Terrans at the time just said "deal with it" so Protoss just had to wait until changes were made to correct for imbalances.
And Protoss didn't have an unblockable scouting method with only an opportunity cost rather than a direct cost.
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On November 29 2013 19:28 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 10:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 09:05 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass. Blink builds do fine vs immortal builds as long as you micro carefully and go in for the kill early and keep the immortal count low. One pops: kill it quick. One immortal won't stop blink stalkers. If he gets to 3, you're pretty dead though. One immortal and an overcharge will though, correct? And then by the time overcharge wears at least another immortal will have popped, if not two (with constant chronoboost). Constantly chronoboosted Immortals take 37 seconds to build. So two is 74 seconds assuming back to back production with consistent chrono. Photon overcharge lasts 60 seconds. Not trying to make any point with this, haven't even read your whole discussion. Just throwing the numbers out there. Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 12:55 Iron_ wrote:On November 29 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:37 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate. Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know... There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing. If he's banking gas that early that's usually pretty bad for toss, so assuming a proxy stargate doesn't exactly hurt you. If he's making observers out of the robo (75 gas each) and has stalkers or sentries on the field, it's pretty damn hard to afford an early stargate like that. You're just making excuses. Yes, it's hard, yes it takes practice, but saying "it could just be banked" is meaningless. Yeah you can mine money and not spend it, but you have to account for what could be the case, not for necessarily what IS the case. If you assume he's banking it and then don't account for oracles and die to them, that's your error. Toss doesn't take a fast third vs. terran because medivacs would usually destroy them on most maps, not because 12 marines will outright kill them at that timing. And again, you don't need to be back unless you suspect a possible stargate, if you see no gas usage, go ahead and pressure. But if toss is doing 3 workers on both geysers early on and has the gas to go stargate after everything else you've seen, you can be pretty sure they aren't taking a 6' nexus, it's too expensive. It's painful to read the same empty words from low level Protoss each time you point out coinflip issues in TvP. "You should have known that this geyser having 2204 instead of 2244 meant DTs, you should have magically guessed if the missing proxied building was Stargate, Council or Council + Dark shrine, you should have built x and y because better be safe than sorry, blabla, blabla". Your understanding of TvP is just too low to get the picture. Keep thinking Terrans are just bad at scouting and everything is right. Thank you... I was about to flip out reading all of these protoss players pretend that it doesn't suck completely to have to guess what they are doing regardless of what we scout as Terran. Do they not understand that the response to each thing is completely different? Do they not realize that if we fall even slightly behind their VASTLY superior late game army will roll right over us? TvP is broken, and time will show us that it is just about as bad as TvZ in late WOL. I guess we will just have to be patient and wait it out until it becomes so obvious that it can not be refuted. My word...this is like reading something from two years ago when stuff like the 1-1-1 was in fashion but with the races inverted. I think you'll probably find most Protoss who have played for any length of time DO know how much it sucks to be murdered by an unscouted build. But Terrans at the time just said "deal with it" so Protoss just had to wait until changes were made to correct for imbalances. And Protoss didn't have an unblockable scouting method with only an opportunity cost rather than a direct cost.
And do you know how many rivers where made from Protoss tears back then? I think terrans learn from Protoss that the more you cry, the faster the changes come.
Opportunity cost is the same as direct cost in this case.
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On November 29 2013 19:43 vthree wrote:
Opportunity cost is the same as direct cost in this case.
*facepalm*
They're really, really not...
Opportunity cost may be important but it isn't the same as direct cost no matter how much you want it to be.
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On November 29 2013 19:46 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 19:43 vthree wrote:
Opportunity cost is the same as direct cost in this case.
*facepalm* They're really, really not... Opportunity cost may be important but it isn't the same as direct cost no matter how much you want it to be.
Just trying to make sense what that might also mean.
So, direct cost is unavoidable, while opportunity cost is calculated comparatively to alternatives. The way that they are the same is to assume that time is linear with no alternatives. You are calculating opportunity cost from alternatives, and it comes out as 0. If there are no costs, it also comes out as 0. So, I think he just admitted that the game is balanced...
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On November 29 2013 19:28 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 10:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 09:05 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass. Blink builds do fine vs immortal builds as long as you micro carefully and go in for the kill early and keep the immortal count low. One pops: kill it quick. One immortal won't stop blink stalkers. If he gets to 3, you're pretty dead though. One immortal and an overcharge will though, correct? And then by the time overcharge wears at least another immortal will have popped, if not two (with constant chronoboost). Constantly chronoboosted Immortals take 37 seconds to build. So two is 74 seconds assuming back to back production with consistent chrono. Photon overcharge lasts 60 seconds. Not trying to make any point with this, haven't even read your whole discussion. Just throwing the numbers out there.
If an immo is atleast 14 sec in, there will be 3 out when PO ends, so a bit of a moot point.
On November 29 2013 19:28 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 12:55 Iron_ wrote:On November 29 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:37 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:
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Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate. Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know... There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing. If he's banking gas that early that's usually pretty bad for toss, so assuming a proxy stargate doesn't exactly hurt you. If he's making observers out of the robo (75 gas each) and has stalkers or sentries on the field, it's pretty damn hard to afford an early stargate like that. You're just making excuses. Yes, it's hard, yes it takes practice, but saying "it could just be banked" is meaningless. Yeah you can mine money and not spend it, but you have to account for what could be the case, not for necessarily what IS the case. If you assume he's banking it and then don't account for oracles and die to them, that's your error. Toss doesn't take a fast third vs. terran because medivacs would usually destroy them on most maps, not because 12 marines will outright kill them at that timing. And again, you don't need to be back unless you suspect a possible stargate, if you see no gas usage, go ahead and pressure. But if toss is doing 3 workers on both geysers early on and has the gas to go stargate after everything else you've seen, you can be pretty sure they aren't taking a 6' nexus, it's too expensive. It's painful to read the same empty words from low level Protoss each time you point out coinflip issues in TvP. "You should have known that this geyser having 2204 instead of 2244 meant DTs, you should have magically guessed if the missing proxied building was Stargate, Council or Council + Dark shrine, you should have built x and y because better be safe than sorry, blabla, blabla". Your understanding of TvP is just too low to get the picture. Keep thinking Terrans are just bad at scouting and everything is right. Thank you... I was about to flip out reading all of these protoss players pretend that it doesn't suck completely to have to guess what they are doing regardless of what we scout as Terran. Do they not understand that the response to each thing is completely different? Do they not realize that if we fall even slightly behind their VASTLY superior late game army will roll right over us? TvP is broken, and time will show us that it is just about as bad as TvZ in late WOL. I guess we will just have to be patient and wait it out until it becomes so obvious that it can not be refuted. My word...this is like reading something from two years ago when stuff like the 1-1-1 was in fashion but with the races inverted. I think you'll probably find most Protoss who have played for any length of time DO know how much it sucks to be murdered by an unscouted build. But Terrans at the time just said "deal with it" so Protoss just had to wait until changes were made to correct for imbalances. And Protoss didn't have an unblockable scouting method with only an opportunity cost rather than a direct cost.
That's a bad example. 111 was a scouted build(which is one of the biggest complains people had about it, they knew it was coming long time in advance but it was still hard to stop) and protoss were infact getting quite decent at stopping it before Blizz decided to completely kill it. Comparing the two, I think protoss allins aren't quite as lethal straight up as the 111 was, but you don't get nearly as much time to prepare for your opponent's allin and they require very specific counters.
And opportunity cost and direct cost are essentially the same until you start mining out, then any mule you previously used was worthless.
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On November 29 2013 19:57 Zarahtra wrote:
And opportunity cost and direct cost are essentially the same until you start mining out, then any mule you previously used was worthless.
If something costs me 270, I need 270 in the bank RIGHT NOW.
If you want to scan, (or scan twice), you need exactly 0 money in the bank. I won't have 270 more minerals in the bank 90seconds from now. Which is a huge difference to "just summoning" 270minerals, which I can use instantly. The big difference is the time component, and 90seconds in Starcraft 2 is quite a large amount of time.
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On November 29 2013 20:27 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 19:57 Zarahtra wrote:
And opportunity cost and direct cost are essentially the same until you start mining out, then any mule you previously used was worthless. If something costs me 270, I need 270 in the bank RIGHT NOW. If you want to scan, (or scan twice), you need exactly 0 money in the bank. I won't have 270 more minerals in the bank 90seconds from now. Which is a huge difference to "just summoning" 270minerals, which I can use instantly. The big difference is the time component, and 90seconds in Starcraft 2 is quite a large amount of time.
Good, so we agree that a scan does cost 270 minerals(until mined out) but you gain 90 seconds.
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On November 29 2013 20:48 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 20:27 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 19:57 Zarahtra wrote:
And opportunity cost and direct cost are essentially the same until you start mining out, then any mule you previously used was worthless. If something costs me 270, I need 270 in the bank RIGHT NOW. If you want to scan, (or scan twice), you need exactly 0 money in the bank. I won't have 270 more minerals in the bank 90seconds from now. Which is a huge difference to "just summoning" 270minerals, which I can use instantly. The big difference is the time component, and 90seconds in Starcraft 2 is quite a large amount of time. Good, so we agree that a scan does cost 270 minerals(until mined out) but you gain 90 seconds.
A scan costs 50 energy.
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On November 29 2013 20:48 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 20:27 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 19:57 Zarahtra wrote:
And opportunity cost and direct cost are essentially the same until you start mining out, then any mule you previously used was worthless. If something costs me 270, I need 270 in the bank RIGHT NOW. If you want to scan, (or scan twice), you need exactly 0 money in the bank. I won't have 270 more minerals in the bank 90seconds from now. Which is a huge difference to "just summoning" 270minerals, which I can use instantly. The big difference is the time component, and 90seconds in Starcraft 2 is quite a large amount of time. Good, so we agree that a scan does cost 270 minerals(until mined out) but you gain 90 seconds.
no?
since then a zergling would cost 50+40*time until game ends amount of minerals. (could have ben a drone)
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EPT
