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On November 29 2013 20:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 20:48 Zarahtra wrote:On November 29 2013 20:27 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 19:57 Zarahtra wrote:
And opportunity cost and direct cost are essentially the same until you start mining out, then any mule you previously used was worthless. If something costs me 270, I need 270 in the bank RIGHT NOW. If you want to scan, (or scan twice), you need exactly 0 money in the bank. I won't have 270 more minerals in the bank 90seconds from now. Which is a huge difference to "just summoning" 270minerals, which I can use instantly. The big difference is the time component, and 90seconds in Starcraft 2 is quite a large amount of time. Good, so we agree that a scan does cost 270 minerals(until mined out) but you gain 90 seconds. no? since then a zergling would cost 50+40*time until game ends amount of minerals. (could have ben a drone)
To be a bit more constructive, I'll add to my previous post.
Scan is more like going to the bank asking for 270 mineral loan that you will pay over the next 90 seconds. I wonder how many people consider a house they bought as free.
A drone and scan are similar in the fact that if you don't make the investment of scanning you might die, just as if you don't build that zergling you might die. So yeah, I agree that a set of zerglings is worth a lot more than 50 minerals(though admittedly it's not 40 per min, but more likely 20 per min, since if you drone to fast you will be oversaturated)
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4713 Posts
From a design stand point I think the problem is, and I hope more people can objectively agree, some races have vastly different levels of viability in their builds in non mirror match ups.
Protoss has probably the most choices of viable builds in all MUs, after that its Zerg and lastly its Terran.
Strategically, Protoss can elect to do strategies from all sides of the spectrum, they can go for anything from pure aggression to pure greed and sometimes even a mix of the two, they have deadly all-ins, they have strong pressures that can transition into kill moves or macro, they are able to take risks of all kinds. Also, a lot of their techs require vastly different optimized responses sometimes just to stay even or not outright die.
Now, the funny part, I'm not saying that's bad. In a well designed game all races should have multiple choices, they should be able to harass, they should be able to all-in, they should be able to be greedy.
The problem is that, Protoss is just the best race at doing all of that.
You can count on one hand the number of all-ins + pressures a terran can do against both zerg and protoss, and they aren't even as deadly as the zerg or protoss ones. Because terran's best options are only really greed into macro, that is the only thing you get.
So fine, leave protoss the way it is, maybe tweak some of its harass or all-in power if its still too strong, don't remove it. However, if you really, really want a well designed, good, fun, well rounded and balanced game. Then all races should have near equal options in aggression, greed, all-ins pressures etc.
As much as you guys hate to hear this, terran needs its all-ins and pressures back, terran needs its strategic options to be able to keep the game fun and fresh. You guys are deluding yourselves if you think just making mech viable will do the trick. Even if mech was viable, if it still didn't have adequate pressures or all-ins then the game will quickly degenerate to just long and potentially boring macro games.
Now, there is nothing wrong with long games, or with macro games, the problem arises if nothing happens during that time. The best kinds of macro games are those that start after a cheese or pressure that is sustained and drags on long enough into a full on macro war. The worst kind of game is sit back for 15-20 and then engage once.
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It's really funny listening to the same "I hate scouting race Y so it must be imbalanced" that's been around since WoL beta 
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On November 29 2013 19:28 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 10:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 09:05 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass. Blink builds do fine vs immortal builds as long as you micro carefully and go in for the kill early and keep the immortal count low. One pops: kill it quick. One immortal won't stop blink stalkers. If he gets to 3, you're pretty dead though. One immortal and an overcharge will though, correct? And then by the time overcharge wears at least another immortal will have popped, if not two (with constant chronoboost). Constantly chronoboosted Immortals take 37 seconds to build. So two is 74 seconds assuming back to back production with consistent chrono. Photon overcharge lasts 60 seconds. Not trying to make any point with this, haven't even read your whole discussion. Just throwing the numbers out there. 
Yeah that why I said possibly two immortals will have finished..if the first one was only 14 seconds into its 37 second build time two will have popped by the time PO ends.
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On November 29 2013 20:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 20:48 Zarahtra wrote:On November 29 2013 20:27 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 19:57 Zarahtra wrote:
And opportunity cost and direct cost are essentially the same until you start mining out, then any mule you previously used was worthless. If something costs me 270, I need 270 in the bank RIGHT NOW. If you want to scan, (or scan twice), you need exactly 0 money in the bank. I won't have 270 more minerals in the bank 90seconds from now. Which is a huge difference to "just summoning" 270minerals, which I can use instantly. The big difference is the time component, and 90seconds in Starcraft 2 is quite a large amount of time. Good, so we agree that a scan does cost 270 minerals(until mined out) but you gain 90 seconds. no? since then a zergling would cost 50+40*time until game ends amount of minerals. (could have ben a drone)
I think a mule is much more comparable to a queen using her energy to spread creep to gain vision vs using it to inject and gain larva. You dont get the larva immediately, but if you choose to spread creep instead you will have less units later on, be it workers or army. The same goes for mules in the early-mid game: yes you dont get that money immediately, but if you choose not to drop a mule and to use that energy to scan instead you will have less money later on and therefore less units, again be that workers or army (whichever you choose to skip). As the game goes on longer injects keep their importance just as mules do (injects are easily more important later but they are both needed), but you will also have extra energy to spread creep and scan at the same time.
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On November 29 2013 21:28 Destructicon wrote:
From a design stand point I think the problem is, and I hope more people can objectively agree, some races have vastly different levels of viability in their builds in non mirror match ups.
Protoss has probably the most choices of viable builds in all MUs, after that its Zerg and lastly its Terran.
Strategically, Protoss can elect to do strategies from all sides of the spectrum, they can go for anything from pure aggression to pure greed and sometimes even a mix of the two, they have deadly all-ins, they have strong pressures that can transition into kill moves or macro, they are able to take risks of all kinds. Also, a lot of their techs require vastly different optimized responses sometimes just to stay even or not outright die.
Now, the funny part, I'm not saying that's bad. In a well designed game all races should have multiple choices, they should be able to harass, they should be able to all-in, they should be able to be greedy.
The problem is that, Protoss is just the best race at doing all of that.
You can count on one hand the number of all-ins + pressures a terran can do against both zerg and protoss, and they aren't even as deadly as the zerg or protoss ones. Because terran's best options are only really greed into macro, that is the only thing you get.
So fine, leave protoss the way it is, maybe tweak some of its harass or all-in power if its still too strong, don't remove it. However, if you really, really want a well designed, good, fun, well rounded and balanced game. Then all races should have near equal options in aggression, greed, all-ins pressures etc.
As much as you guys hate to hear this, terran needs its all-ins and pressures back, terran needs its strategic options to be able to keep the game fun and fresh. You guys are deluding yourselves if you think just making mech viable will do the trick. Even if mech was viable, if it still didn't have adequate pressures or all-ins then the game will quickly degenerate to just long and potentially boring macro games.
Now, there is nothing wrong with long games, or with macro games, the problem arises if nothing happens during that time. The best kinds of macro games are those that start after a cheese or pressure that is sustained and drags on long enough into a full on macro war. The worst kind of game is sit back for 15-20 and then engage once.
Well, I believe the best games are those where both players use many tools throughout all of the game to control the map and harass each other, like hellions and zerglings. I really don't need 1-2base attacks and cheeses as openings, having cheap "standard" harassment units early does the trick for me.
No need to have this huge chance of the game "just ending" then and there, when there are alternatives that can give players little advantages.
That does not mean I'm content with all the opening phases, though I think TvZ is good, PvZ when Protoss opens gateway first or at least FFE-->Stargate is good and TvT apart from the 1-2base tankpushes that often end the game very fast is very good in the opening stages.
On the flipside, I really don't need ling/bling allins and X-Gate+something in ZvZ or PvP as an opening, it tends to make openings coinflippy and games short, more than anything else. Similarily 5min Oracles in TvP or blink allins in TvP.
I think the game can use "more hellions" (as they are balanced now, not the instagib-blueflamers, or the armory-transformers) for Terran and "phoenixes" for Protoss in certain matchups. And I guess that that is what blizzard has and is trying with the oracle. Just that they are somehow missguided that the unit will ever become such a thing without a bigger change. (like less damage, more range like a banshee; or alternative ways of harassment etc...)
So in general I do agree with your statement that Terran lacks tools in the non-mirror matchups, however, I'd prefer them to stay tools, rather than give them back some of the sledgehammers they used to have (rather long time ago).
@Mech: Yes, "just making Mech more viable" is of course not the right solution. Yet "new" playstyles often come with new opportunities for timings. And Mech has at least 2 - hellion, banshee - if not 3-4 - hellbat drop, widow mine drop - types of aggressive ways to open. So if Mech was viable, it may be just natural to go for a fast factory/starport pressure, to get it going.
On November 30 2013 02:36 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 20:54 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 20:48 Zarahtra wrote:On November 29 2013 20:27 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 19:57 Zarahtra wrote:
And opportunity cost and direct cost are essentially the same until you start mining out, then any mule you previously used was worthless. If something costs me 270, I need 270 in the bank RIGHT NOW. If you want to scan, (or scan twice), you need exactly 0 money in the bank. I won't have 270 more minerals in the bank 90seconds from now. Which is a huge difference to "just summoning" 270minerals, which I can use instantly. The big difference is the time component, and 90seconds in Starcraft 2 is quite a large amount of time. Good, so we agree that a scan does cost 270 minerals(until mined out) but you gain 90 seconds. no? since then a zergling would cost 50+40*time until game ends amount of minerals. (could have ben a drone) I think a mule is much more comparable to a queen using her energy to spread creep to gain vision vs using it to inject and gain larva. You dont get the larva immediately, but if you choose to spread creep instead you will have less units later on, be it workers or army. The same goes for mules in the early-mid game: yes you dont get that money immediately, but if you choose not to drop a mule and to use that energy to scan instead you will have less money later on and therefore less units, again be that workers or army (whichever you choose to skip). As the game goes on longer injects keep their importance just as mules do (injects are easily more important later but they are both needed), but you will also have extra energy to spread creep and scan at the same time.
Yeah. It's like TheDwf wrote: It costs 50energy.
That you build CCs to a huge degree for mining/muling is a fact of gameplay. But it doesn't really imply that scans cost you really something, apart from the 50energy and the investment cost (that everything has) of its host (in this case a CC).
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Based on all the PvX this Weekend and during HSC last week, it's obvious Blizzard's intention to buff Oracle into late game viability was a complete failure.
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lol real life example is best way to describe mule/scan:
What scanning instead of mule is NOT:
"I just spent 270 dollars on this item"
What scanning instead of mule IS:
"I didn't work this saturday, could've made 270 but didn't"
The whole argument of "until the map is mined out" is silly to make, since that happens in literally 0% of games lol
On November 30 2013 03:33 ReMinD_ wrote:
Based on all the PvX this Weekend and during HSC last week, it's obvious Blizzard's intention to buff Oracle into late game viability was a complete failure.
How did you come to that "obvious" conclusion of absolute failure?
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On November 29 2013 19:28 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 10:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 09:05 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass. Blink builds do fine vs immortal builds as long as you micro carefully and go in for the kill early and keep the immortal count low. One pops: kill it quick. One immortal won't stop blink stalkers. If he gets to 3, you're pretty dead though. One immortal and an overcharge will though, correct? And then by the time overcharge wears at least another immortal will have popped, if not two (with constant chronoboost). Constantly chronoboosted Immortals take 37 seconds to build. So two is 74 seconds assuming back to back production with consistent chrono. Photon overcharge lasts 60 seconds. Not trying to make any point with this, haven't even read your whole discussion. Just throwing the numbers out there. Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 12:55 Iron_ wrote:On November 29 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:37 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:51 Whitewing wrote:
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Hellion drop opening is basically the same for the most part. An Oracle rush for only 4 workers is probably in favor of terran overall assuming he did a fast expand of some sort. Even 6 is probably slightly in favor of terran or trading evenly. If Protoss does oracle after nexus, it's much easier to defend and shame on the terran for not scouting or not having units positioned. Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate. Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know... There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing. If he's banking gas that early that's usually pretty bad for toss, so assuming a proxy stargate doesn't exactly hurt you. If he's making observers out of the robo (75 gas each) and has stalkers or sentries on the field, it's pretty damn hard to afford an early stargate like that. You're just making excuses. Yes, it's hard, yes it takes practice, but saying "it could just be banked" is meaningless. Yeah you can mine money and not spend it, but you have to account for what could be the case, not for necessarily what IS the case. If you assume he's banking it and then don't account for oracles and die to them, that's your error. Toss doesn't take a fast third vs. terran because medivacs would usually destroy them on most maps, not because 12 marines will outright kill them at that timing. And again, you don't need to be back unless you suspect a possible stargate, if you see no gas usage, go ahead and pressure. But if toss is doing 3 workers on both geysers early on and has the gas to go stargate after everything else you've seen, you can be pretty sure they aren't taking a 6' nexus, it's too expensive. It's painful to read the same empty words from low level Protoss each time you point out coinflip issues in TvP. "You should have known that this geyser having 2204 instead of 2244 meant DTs, you should have magically guessed if the missing proxied building was Stargate, Council or Council + Dark shrine, you should have built x and y because better be safe than sorry, blabla, blabla". Your understanding of TvP is just too low to get the picture. Keep thinking Terrans are just bad at scouting and everything is right. Thank you... I was about to flip out reading all of these protoss players pretend that it doesn't suck completely to have to guess what they are doing regardless of what we scout as Terran. Do they not understand that the response to each thing is completely different? Do they not realize that if we fall even slightly behind their VASTLY superior late game army will roll right over us? TvP is broken, and time will show us that it is just about as bad as TvZ in late WOL. I guess we will just have to be patient and wait it out until it becomes so obvious that it can not be refuted. My word...this is like reading something from two years ago when stuff like the 1-1-1 was in fashion but with the races inverted. I think you'll probably find most Protoss who have played for any length of time DO know how much it sucks to be murdered by an unscouted build. But Terrans at the time just said "deal with it" so Protoss just had to wait until changes were made to correct for imbalances. And Protoss didn't have an unblockable scouting method with only an opportunity cost rather than a direct cost.
This is not the same situation at all. The only thing that is the same is that there are complaints from one race to another. During the 1-1-1, that was a 100% completely all in build. If you stopped it from killing you, you won. Is that the case with ANY of the protoss cheeses/pressures/allins? Absolutely not. I stop your proxy oracle by making a super fast ebay and getting lucky with my marine placement. What does this get me? The opportunity to go even into the late game where your units are, and always have been, superior.
Same goes for any of your other openings. We stop it, and all that means is we get an opportunity to play longer and figure out how to beat colossus/templar. If stopping your proxy oracle cold meant we auto won, I'd be fine with it, IE how the 1-1-1 worked back in the day.
And lets see what happened.......... Blizzard buffed protoss and made the 1-1-1 from a viable option to a joke. Then in HOTS they gave the protoss the Nexus cannon, just in case having the 1-1-1 being dead wasn't enough, they decided to kill all other options to pressure protoss.
Also, our scouting options have BOTH real cost and opportunity cost. IE, the reaper really costs 50/50 and the opportunity cost may be a super fast ebay, or a fast reactor for more marines. There is nothing we have, or any other race has, that is purely opportunity cost. I think you misunderstand that concept. If you are referring to scans, that has a real cost of 50 energy also, the scan doesn't drop for free. The opportunity cost is 270 minerals.
It is much more similar to the TvZ of late WOL, where the zerg could do a variety of very difficult to stop strategies (ling/bane busts, roach ling busts, fast roach, roach, ling bane busts), OR sit back macro and kill you with infestor broodlord. It could be argued that it is worse now, because at least all of those zerg strategies were stopped with the same concepts, which the protoss all in/pressures require completely different responses.
Edit: A good start would be to take the ridiculous nexus cannon out of the game. It's one of the most lame things I've seen in any RTS game, and is completely unnecessary . Maybe the protoss would actually be taking a risk by doing some of these pressures and cheeses if they had only one unit without the benefit of a super seige tank that shoots air at home.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Claiming that scan drop costs 270 minerals is BS. Claiming that scan drop delays the build up by 270 minerals worth of stuff is, however, a correct claim.
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On November 29 2013 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:It's really funny listening to the same "I hate scouting race Y so it must be imbalanced" that's been around since WoL beta
When race X has to make near-perfect scout and race Y can just sit back and play in the dark, there is definitely imbalance. Asymmetrical balance has to do with unit statistics and abilities - core staples of RTS like scouting should be even.
We know Blizzard feels the same way because they gave all races the ability to scout - OV speed buff, removing hallucination upgrade, removing reaper speed-upgrade.
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On November 30 2013 05:09 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:It's really funny listening to the same "I hate scouting race Y so it must be imbalanced" that's been around since WoL beta When race X has to make near-perfect scout and race Y can just sit back and play in the dark, there is definitely imbalance. Asymmetrical balance has to do with unit statistics and abilities - core staples of RTS like scouting should be even. We know Blizzard feels the same way because they gave all races the ability to scout - OV speed buff, removing hallucination upgrade, removing reaper speed-upgrade.
Wasn't commenting on the qualitative aspects of the current discourse.
But since beta race X always complained that they have to scout race Y and it's unfair. It's funny that this discussion never dies
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On November 29 2013 19:43 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 19:28 -Celestial- wrote:On November 29 2013 10:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 09:05 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:On November 28 2013 16:59 Survivor61316 wrote:
Does anyone else think protoss is an absolutely soul sucking broken race too? I literally cringe a little inside every time I get matched up against one on ladder as Terran. We really shouldnt have to resort to PULLING OUR FUCKING WORKERS just to be able to win a game. They are completely safe from cheese now with the MSC and their units just being strong as shit in general; they have a wide, wide, ever so wide variety of cheeses to choose from, many of which look damn near identical when scouting; and their late game armies are obviously the strongest in the game. Add on top of that their harass potential is leagues above anything a Terran or non muta zerg can do (outside of a lucky nydus or a doom drop by terran). There was absolutely no reason for dt tech to become cheaper or for a speed buff to the wp. And definitely no god damn reason for the oracle changes. They now have retained the strong deathball army we have all grown to love (gag) while adding the ability to harass the shit out of their opponents while they build to their ideal comps.
IMO balance between the races should work as follows: Protoss units are the slowest are therefore the strongest in head to head fights. If they can shut down harass and muster a bulkwark defense they should be able to roll over the other races in max fights because thats just how their units are designed. Zerg should be the antonym to this; their main goal should be to continually harass and backstab the other races, abusing their superior mobility to never be forced to take head on engagements if they dont want to. When they do get to the late game, they should win by using their macro mechanic of being able to summon whole armies instantaneously to send wave after wave of units until the enemy breaks. All of this should be possible because they kept the opponent on a low enough economy throughout the game that they can trade as inefficiently as they need to. Terran should occupy an area somewhere in between this; they should have a fairly strong late game army, while also retaining the ability to offer moderate forms of harass.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wants balance every race like they're Terran, and give them all "equal" means to do things. Consequently, by giving Brotoss the ability to offer what is IMO the best harass tools in the game (between warping in an army with one drop ship. dts, and oracles) and not nerfing their late game army in any way, the game isnt really getting any more balanced. TvP is a fucking joke now, and everyday I see ZvP becoming harder and harder on the Zerg. Please tell me you guys agree that either toss harass has to take a severe nerf, or their late game army comp does?? I agree 100%. No race should have 1. The best harass and all-ins. 2. The best all-in and harass defense. 3. The best late game. Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas. You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass. Blink builds do fine vs immortal builds as long as you micro carefully and go in for the kill early and keep the immortal count low. One pops: kill it quick. One immortal won't stop blink stalkers. If he gets to 3, you're pretty dead though. One immortal and an overcharge will though, correct? And then by the time overcharge wears at least another immortal will have popped, if not two (with constant chronoboost). Constantly chronoboosted Immortals take 37 seconds to build. So two is 74 seconds assuming back to back production with consistent chrono. Photon overcharge lasts 60 seconds. Not trying to make any point with this, haven't even read your whole discussion. Just throwing the numbers out there. On November 29 2013 12:55 Iron_ wrote:On November 29 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:37 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 06:52 TheDwf wrote:
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Shame on the Terran for not scouting something which can be proxied anywhere on the map (yes, even after expand)? Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base. You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see. And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate. Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know... There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing. If he's banking gas that early that's usually pretty bad for toss, so assuming a proxy stargate doesn't exactly hurt you. If he's making observers out of the robo (75 gas each) and has stalkers or sentries on the field, it's pretty damn hard to afford an early stargate like that. You're just making excuses. Yes, it's hard, yes it takes practice, but saying "it could just be banked" is meaningless. Yeah you can mine money and not spend it, but you have to account for what could be the case, not for necessarily what IS the case. If you assume he's banking it and then don't account for oracles and die to them, that's your error. Toss doesn't take a fast third vs. terran because medivacs would usually destroy them on most maps, not because 12 marines will outright kill them at that timing. And again, you don't need to be back unless you suspect a possible stargate, if you see no gas usage, go ahead and pressure. But if toss is doing 3 workers on both geysers early on and has the gas to go stargate after everything else you've seen, you can be pretty sure they aren't taking a 6' nexus, it's too expensive. It's painful to read the same empty words from low level Protoss each time you point out coinflip issues in TvP. "You should have known that this geyser having 2204 instead of 2244 meant DTs, you should have magically guessed if the missing proxied building was Stargate, Council or Council + Dark shrine, you should have built x and y because better be safe than sorry, blabla, blabla". Your understanding of TvP is just too low to get the picture. Keep thinking Terrans are just bad at scouting and everything is right. Thank you... I was about to flip out reading all of these protoss players pretend that it doesn't suck completely to have to guess what they are doing regardless of what we scout as Terran. Do they not understand that the response to each thing is completely different? Do they not realize that if we fall even slightly behind their VASTLY superior late game army will roll right over us? TvP is broken, and time will show us that it is just about as bad as TvZ in late WOL. I guess we will just have to be patient and wait it out until it becomes so obvious that it can not be refuted. My word...this is like reading something from two years ago when stuff like the 1-1-1 was in fashion but with the races inverted. I think you'll probably find most Protoss who have played for any length of time DO know how much it sucks to be murdered by an unscouted build. But Terrans at the time just said "deal with it" so Protoss just had to wait until changes were made to correct for imbalances. And Protoss didn't have an unblockable scouting method with only an opportunity cost rather than a direct cost. And do you know how many rivers where made from Protoss tears back then? I think terrans learn from Protoss that the more you cry, the faster the changes come. Opportunity cost is the same as direct cost in this case.
It's unfortunate the game was broken and imbalanced for so long that you've confused almost normal winrates with imbalance.
Wondering where all these people concerned about the design were years ago or hell months ago.
edit: Lol opportunity cost being the same as direct cost. Using your call down every second was supposed to be greedy not optional. Looking at mineral intakes at equal probes the mule gives you an advantage. Even early on the toss is constrained by gas more than mins. Admittedly now all the builds have been optimized based on having the mules so yeah Blizz screwed up but then again terrans do take awhile to try new things. How long did it take for Ghosts and blue flame hellions that were so obviously good to be used?
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Upgrades finish way to early overall for all races(the attack upgrades)
Look at taeja vs Life game 3 dreamhackfinal, how the games could have been if it werent for upgrades.
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On December 01 2013 07:56 Foxxan wrote:
Upgrades finish way to early overall for all races(the attack upgrades)
Look at taeja vs Life game 3 dreamhackfinal, how the games could have been if it werent for upgrades.
? Life commited to his attack and Taeja did an amazing hold, it's normal for him to be at an advantage in the lategame after such a epic hold.
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On November 30 2013 13:35 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2013 19:43 vthree wrote:On November 29 2013 19:28 -Celestial- wrote:On November 29 2013 10:10 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 09:05 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 08:09 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 29 2013 03:47 Big J wrote:On November 29 2013 02:25 Survivor61316 wrote:On November 28 2013 17:57 Big J wrote:On November 28 2013 17:48 MockHamill wrote:
[quote]
I agree 100%. No race should have
1. The best harass and all-ins.
2. The best all-in and harass defense.
3. The best late game.
Protos needs to lose strength in at least one of these areas.
You agree that Protoss should never ever have to move out and and just autowin if they turtled well? Protoss is finally somewhere, where it can (and against zerg must) harass in a macrogame instead of only having pure turtle and pure allin options. It's TvP that needs to get broader since 2011. It's Terran's lategame units and alternative playstyles that need to be viable (and not just in that matchup). If not mech, at least give me some bio +Tank or +Thor or +BC or +Raven transitions; ANYTHING that is not "we're gonna balance this matchup around somebody countering lategame units with mooooooooore drops, because drops so much fun and we are totally OK with 50% of the units having basically no use". Just one higher tier unit that people can build strategies around. Well first of all its just one of these options that need to be nerfed, if you think protoss should be forced to harass then its their deathball that needs to be nerfed, which will continue to force them to have to harass to keep the game even. I dont agree with this personally, I think a race as slow as protoss should focus on defense first and if you dont like to play like that, play a different race. Whats the point of having different races if they are all going to be balanced and play the same way? And as far as TvP goes, the immortal hard counters armored units far to well for mech to ever work, or any type of bio mech army. Its funny, because terran had to play mech vs protoss in BW because of things like storm and zlot legs making late game bio all but impossible, then in SC2 they add a perfect tank killing unit without taking out the things that prevented bio from working in BW. So now Terran is left in a position of having to play far superior to their protoss opponent throughout the whole game, and micro their asses off in battles just to make things even. Anyone who thinks the ghost vs ht micro fight is even has a screw loose. The point is that all races are still made to be fun. If you want a race that is boring inherently it should not be in the game. If you believe* that there is no place in an RTS for races with similar capabilities, then you should vote to remove some of those races, but not to pidgeonhole them into stupid gameplay that people have critizised for a long time. (Protoss deathballing, Broodlord/Infestor type of endgame unit massing etc.) If your point is that Protoss has too strong harass or allin or deathball play, then this is a balance concern, but has nothing to do with "how Protoss should be played". *yes, and it's just that, a belief. I don't think that there is something wrong with every race being able to harass or turtle or allin or whatever playstyle you can imagine. For as long as it is somewhat unique, which it is currently. (Terran drops, Zerg Mutalisks and Protoss Warp Prism play are all inherently extremly different. So is burrowed Infestor play, DT harass and hellion runbies). Hell, even if it is somewhat similar, even mirror play can be very exciting. (e.g. there is nothing wrong with Terran being able to do hellion runbies, even if this is a very "zergish" form of aggression. Or that Protoss/Zerg also have dropcapabilities. Or that 2races have longrange+slow+ground only+splash siege weapons, or...) Yes, Immortals are a problem unit. But Roaches and Ultralisks are still playable in ZvP, Stalkers and Colossi in PvP. All of them despite Immortals being an option for the opponent, which has a lot to do with there being unit choices besides those armored, ground based play. + Show Spoiler +I used to play Mech TvP in WoL Lyyna style (~Diamond/Masters) and it was quite potent against mass Immortals imo, because banshees were actually quite good early, and ghosts+tanks/thor/BCs later on. This is not meant to say that Mech was good WoL or something, but it means to say that single units usually imposes no problem. In Mech vs Protoss it's the amount of difficulties that make it useless. Immortalbased play in its own however could be countered quite nicely.
Nerfing the immortal would of course be one of the most logical/easy solutions, but it surely isn't the only one.
Some people like to play a safe turtle style until they can move out with a large army, just ask avilo. And my point about protoss is that to keep the game balanced, the race has to be like that because they are such a slow moving race. It is much harder for them to bring their entire army together than the other two races, therefore when their army is massed together it should rofl stomp the other races. If for example zerg could trade evenly with a maxed protoss army, zerg would hands down be a better race because their speed would allow them to completely control the map and get into position much faster and before the protoss could react. I dont just believe that the races should have different strengths and weaknesses for the hell of it; it is the difference between how the races work on both a mechanical and fundamental level. And as to your point that roaches and stalkers are still playable vs immortals, lets actually think about that for a second: as soon as an immortal pops in PvP against say a blink stalker build, the person going blink either loses if they were all in or has to pull back an continue to macro if not. In ZvP the only way roaches are still playable vs immortals are if you overwhelm with simple numbers. There was a reason that the answer to the soul train in WOL was to go 200/200 on roaches even though you were facing 2-3 immortals most of the time. And I do believe that they should have small overlap between the races, as I said in my OP Terran should have aspects of both the other two races because they fill a spot somewhere between simply by how the race has been designed. But they should not be equal by any means. They can have equal means at all aspects of the game when their macro mechanics work the same way. If you were for example to give the zerg the ability to trade efficiently mid-late game in main army fights, they will inevitably overrun the other races because they can remacro that efficient army much quicker. And come on, a warp prism is just a medivac of steroids. All it does is give the protoss the ability to drop the same amount of units as it would take terran 3 medivacs to do (assuming 8 gates for that statistic). I think the dt is a perfect harass tool for toss though; it gives them the ability to inflict economic damage and the keep the enemy army off their backs, while not being so strong as to put the toss in a position to win the game simply from harass. Blink builds do fine vs immortal builds as long as you micro carefully and go in for the kill early and keep the immortal count low. One pops: kill it quick. One immortal won't stop blink stalkers. If he gets to 3, you're pretty dead though. One immortal and an overcharge will though, correct? And then by the time overcharge wears at least another immortal will have popped, if not two (with constant chronoboost). Constantly chronoboosted Immortals take 37 seconds to build. So two is 74 seconds assuming back to back production with consistent chrono. Photon overcharge lasts 60 seconds. Not trying to make any point with this, haven't even read your whole discussion. Just throwing the numbers out there. On November 29 2013 12:55 Iron_ wrote:On November 29 2013 09:14 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:37 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 07:20 Whitewing wrote:On November 29 2013 07:12 TheDwf wrote:On November 29 2013 06:56 Whitewing wrote:
[quote]
Terran should be scouting the toss base, if there's missing tech, you can count what you see and make an estimate of what toss has. This is what protoss did for the entirety of WoL in the early game with the zealot/stalker poke to figure out if there was 1/1/1 or other all-in coming from one base terran. If you see no tech structures or later tech structures then there should be with few or no units, that's a sign that you should be putting marines in your mineral lines or getting turrets. If you don't screw up and lose your opening reaper, for example, it's actually quite easy to get unit counts on toss or get a good look at the base.
You don't have to actually scout a proxy to figure out it's there. I've figured out proxy factory or starport plenty of times without ever actually seeing the structure. You see early gas, look for where the gas is being spent. If you don't see gas being spent, you can safely assume that it's being spent on something being hidden from you. Narrow it down from there based on what you see.
And after expand, it's not hard to just put some marines in your mineral lines with your bunkers at the front. Scouted a 5'20 robo after MSC expand vs MaNa yesterday, was still hit by a proxy Stargate. He just cut/delay one Stalker and that's his Stargate. Zero way to tell the difference. Stargate and oracle is a full 250 gas more than the stalker, did you actually look at his geysers and how much he was mining, then look at his units and ask yourself where all that gas was? Did you see the robo building anything? What time did the proxy oracle hit? If you scout a robo at 5'20 (did you make sure it was finished?), why not just put your marines in your mineral lines to be safe, only pulling them back to the front if you suspect a big gateway attack or immortal bust? Yeah, there are ways you can tell, just because you failed to do it that game doesn't make it impossible. Clicking on geysers doesn't say anything; the gas mined could simply be banked. Seeing the robo building something is impossible most of the time because your Reaper has to die to scout it; plus it again means nothing as he can build Observers in his robo behind his proxy Stargate. Putting your Marines in your mineral line is not an option when you want to pressure with Marines/Mines/Medivac. Terrans cannot afford to camp in their mineral lines with 12 Marines every game or Protoss would just 6' third every game and auto-win from there, you know... There was zero way to tell this proxy apart from having complete vision of everything he was doing. If he's banking gas that early that's usually pretty bad for toss, so assuming a proxy stargate doesn't exactly hurt you. If he's making observers out of the robo (75 gas each) and has stalkers or sentries on the field, it's pretty damn hard to afford an early stargate like that. You're just making excuses. Yes, it's hard, yes it takes practice, but saying "it could just be banked" is meaningless. Yeah you can mine money and not spend it, but you have to account for what could be the case, not for necessarily what IS the case. If you assume he's banking it and then don't account for oracles and die to them, that's your error. Toss doesn't take a fast third vs. terran because medivacs would usually destroy them on most maps, not because 12 marines will outright kill them at that timing. And again, you don't need to be back unless you suspect a possible stargate, if you see no gas usage, go ahead and pressure. But if toss is doing 3 workers on both geysers early on and has the gas to go stargate after everything else you've seen, you can be pretty sure they aren't taking a 6' nexus, it's too expensive. It's painful to read the same empty words from low level Protoss each time you point out coinflip issues in TvP. "You should have known that this geyser having 2204 instead of 2244 meant DTs, you should have magically guessed if the missing proxied building was Stargate, Council or Council + Dark shrine, you should have built x and y because better be safe than sorry, blabla, blabla". Your understanding of TvP is just too low to get the picture. Keep thinking Terrans are just bad at scouting and everything is right. Thank you... I was about to flip out reading all of these protoss players pretend that it doesn't suck completely to have to guess what they are doing regardless of what we scout as Terran. Do they not understand that the response to each thing is completely different? Do they not realize that if we fall even slightly behind their VASTLY superior late game army will roll right over us? TvP is broken, and time will show us that it is just about as bad as TvZ in late WOL. I guess we will just have to be patient and wait it out until it becomes so obvious that it can not be refuted. My word...this is like reading something from two years ago when stuff like the 1-1-1 was in fashion but with the races inverted. I think you'll probably find most Protoss who have played for any length of time DO know how much it sucks to be murdered by an unscouted build. But Terrans at the time just said "deal with it" so Protoss just had to wait until changes were made to correct for imbalances. And Protoss didn't have an unblockable scouting method with only an opportunity cost rather than a direct cost. And do you know how many rivers where made from Protoss tears back then? I think terrans learn from Protoss that the more you cry, the faster the changes come. Opportunity cost is the same as direct cost in this case. It's unfortunate the game was broken and imbalanced for so long that you've confused almost normal winrates with imbalance. Wondering where all these people concerned about the design were years ago or hell months ago. edit: Lol opportunity cost being the same as direct cost. Using your call down every second was supposed to be greedy not optional. Looking at mineral intakes at equal probes the mule gives you an advantage. Even early on the toss is constrained by gas more than mins. Admittedly now all the builds have been optimized based on having the mules so yeah Blizz screwed up but then again terrans do take awhile to try new things. How long did it take for Ghosts and blue flame hellions that were so obviously good to be used?
What a confusing, stream of consciousness edit.You squeeze in so many claims, including:
1) Terrans weren't supposed to use every bit of energy on MULEs. Why wouldn't they? Unless you need a scan for something or you're supply blocked, it's just a good idea. In fact the game was designed around Protoss and Zerg being able to make workers faster than Terran while Terran uses MULEs to keep up, so yes, they WERE intended by Blizzard to use most of their orbital energy on MULEs from the beginning.
2) Even early on toss is constrained by gas more than mins. And since MULEs don't effect gas income, what's the relevance of this?
3) Terrans take a while to try new things – that's why nobody used ghosts and BFHs when they were overpowered. But people did use them, in both cases. Although in the case of the ghost, people didn't use them much until the change that made them viable on less than three or four bases (cost change from 100/200 to 200/100). In the case of BFHs, people used them all the time, and to great effect, although admittedly Slayers did a great job of filling out the unit immediately before the nerf.
I don't understand why people still have this conversation about MULE "cost." Let's clarify the terminology: In any resource-based RTS, including SC2, you have a curve of money against time that describes your economy. If you spend 1000 minerals on turrets and bunkers, you set your mineral income curve back by 1000 minerals, delaying the time by which you can accumulate a given number of structures, units, upgrades, etc – so we say that those defenses "cost 1000 minerals" to describe this delay to your economy curve.
Every time you use a MULE you get 270 minerals 90 seconds faster than you otherwise would have, which means that you have done the opposite: put your curve 270 minerals ahead of schedule. That also means that if you plan on MULE-ing at a given time, and then scan instead, your curve is delayed by 270 minerals relative to where it would have been. Someone might describe this by saying not MULE-ing "costs 270 minerals."
What are the differences between this delay and the direct cost of spending money on a unit or building? There are two:
1) The cost is not immediate. If we compare two initially identical economies, in which one drops a MULE at t=0 and the other does not, then at t=0 they're still identical, and at t=45 the MULEd economy is only 135 minerals ahead on average.
2) The minerals are just never mined, rather than destroyed. This concern only effects the economy curve once the base runs out. And since it's standard practice to MULE newer bases so they'll all run out at similar times, that means this only really matters much in ultra-lategame scenarios where the map is nearly mined out – which virtually never happens.
So the first difference is the only very significant one. That means it might be a bit more precise to say "not MULE-ing costs 270 minerals over the next 90 seconds," and while it's true that you haven't clarified the distinction between never mining the minerals in the first place and destroying them so the map is slightly more mineral-poor, I think it's clear everyone knows what you mean.
TL;DR: Saying "not MULE-ing costs 270 minerals" is perfectly acceptable.
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That, I fear, is what is commonly (but mistakenly) referred to as arguing semantics.
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Designated meaning Discussion Thread.
on topic: SC2 is imo in a good balance. except race % in higher leagues.
but i do think there is a lack in diversion. especially with Terran and marine spam.
also playing vs P with any race leads to plenty of rage. same as playing vs Mutas or Zerg vs prepatch mines.
feels like P is the most rewarding race, it's the easiest to blame your self for poor plays instead of stupid racemechanics you lost to.
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On December 01 2013 20:10 Ghanburighan wrote:That, I fear, is what is commonly (but mistakenly) referred to as arguing semantics.
That, was just a different way of saying:
It costs 50energy. How and why you aquire/spend it is a question of gameplay.
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EPT
