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On December 02 2013 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
It's not really about balance, but i dislike that terran needs next to no gas (i hope i am right there) in TvZ and Zerg is extremely reliant on the gas income cause they need banelings,mutas to even be able to play vs MMMM.
What's even worse about this is that banelings aren't really that good if you don't have many of them.
This is no real balance probem, but it kinda feels wrong. (i don't say Terran is better than Zerg in TvZ, its just weird)
What do you guys think about that?
I see a lot of TvZ where the Z has a huge gaz bank, generally very good one like Life or DRG when he destroyed Innovation.
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On December 02 2013 06:59 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 21:21 vthree wrote:
And it takes Terran a while to try new things? At leas they try, when Protoss lost to 1-1-1 and ghost EMPs, Thors, they just cried and got the Terran units nerfed and their own unit buff. Granted, I think some of the changes was needed, but let's not try to suggest that Protoss adapted all by themselves.
+ Show Spoiler +You're joking right? The thor thing never got a chance to play out so I have no comment on it but 1/1/1 was outright broken and anyone who played on either side of the PvT matchup back then would attest to that unless they are in outright denial. Protoss tried tons of stuff, but none of it worked because 1/1/1 was still better than any composition Protoss could get in time because Terran could match or beat Protoss' early two base economy off one base because of mules. Hero did all kinds of insane stuff trying to beat it and still lost to Puma multiple times due to 1/1/1. Protoss' winrate against Terran at that time in 2011 was hitting 40% and lower. For Protoss to win against it at the time either required them to hope Terran screwed up or do builds that would lose outright to anything else so it was either play safe and lose to 1/1/1 or play risky and lose to everything else. Not to mention how small the margin of error was for playing against it. Hero was going Phoenix/DT and other weird compositions in hopes of beating it but it never worked. Many other Protoss were doing similar things and none of it worked because 1/1/1 was still better than basically anything Protoss could do. There was no "adapting" to be done when 1/1/1 was stronger than any composition Protoss could have out in time be face it. Here's some fun little graphs of the winrate in Korea for the worst period after 1/1/1 was discovered to take things into perspective about how bad it was. Keep in mind that in aGSL there was only one Protoss in the RO16 of Code S. Of course there were 20 Terrans, but they were just better, right? Here's July ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png) Here's October. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bviP1.png) Do you really think Protoss tried nothing over that time period?
But that's a couple month period, the point that I want to make is that besides minor deviations, terran's composition hasn't changed throughout 3 years and an expansion, terran can make 5, maybe 6 if you count mine drops, fighting units throughout the game, besides weird all ins that are super gimmicky, and protoss has and can make any unit, besides maybe voidrays and carriers, and use it in a macro game.
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On December 02 2013 07:20 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 06:59 Ben... wrote:On December 01 2013 21:21 vthree wrote:
And it takes Terran a while to try new things? At leas they try, when Protoss lost to 1-1-1 and ghost EMPs, Thors, they just cried and got the Terran units nerfed and their own unit buff. Granted, I think some of the changes was needed, but let's not try to suggest that Protoss adapted all by themselves.
Do you really think Protoss tried nothing over that time period? What changes were made to address 1/1/1 build?
He has already mentioned a few. There was also a massive and ongoing collaborative effort by P players on TL at that time to address the 1/1/1: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
The assertion that Protoss players just whined is utter bullshit.
MC almost beat it on a map made for it, XNC, and may have actually done so if not for choosing to counter when holding Puma's second push. In the end, the 1/1/1 was solved more by larger (and better) maps than the Immortal buff.
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On December 02 2013 08:20 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. There's an opportunity cost to using Photon Overcharge. That energy could have been used for Recall or Timewarp. Forcing a Photon Overcharge is doing damage in itself by wasting MSC energy -- especially if you can force it and escape with no or few losses.
Yeah, there is an opportunity cost, but the problem is that Terrans have very difficult time utilizing their mid game multi-prong aggression. Primarily, we see a lot of Protoss players becoming extremely defensive to the point that they can develop their late-game composition, which is something that a lot of Terran players do NOT want.
Even with the opportunity cost, it's not that big of a sacrifice. You still have one more charge of photon overcharge to use on another nexus to prolong the defense. You won't need recall on a defensive position, and you still can use time warp, assuming that you store up a lot of energy, which is not very hard for a passive Protoss player (unless it is a PvP).
The cooldown I suggested is only meant to reduce the abuse of the photon overcharge and provide a timing window for other races to counterattack and do a good amount of damage.
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On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately.
It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game.
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On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game.
Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something?
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On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game.
It's a really tricky problem when you think about it. It all starts with warp gate.
Toss has warp gate and blink, so stalkers being as good as dragoons would be OP. Therefore they get a health and damage nerf while costing the same.
However, with weaker stalkers, Protoss needs a way to defend all-ins. So Protoss gets sentries and forcefields.
But because the protoss army is strongest in a big clump, pushing out becomes all-in.
So Protoss gets Mothership Core, which has recall and nexus cannon to stop all-ins. However, this makes Protoss all-ins very risk free.
It's a huge tangled web that goes back to warp gate and blink being introduced, there's no simple easy fix.
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United States876 Posts
On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something?
They won't change the MSC. It fixed PvP and made PvZ bearable to watch (not FFE vs. 3 hatch every game). Professional Terrans do fine against both the MSC and late game Protoss. Drops are still viable with Turbo-Medevacs. And Viking/Ghost can beat a deathball. You can punish a turtling player by out-expoing him and overwhelming him with mass production.
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On December 02 2013 12:44 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something? They won't change the MSC. It fixed PvP and made PvZ bearable to watch (not FFE vs. 3 hatch every game). Professional Terrans do fine against both the MSC and late game Protoss. Drops are still viable with Turbo-Medevacs. And Viking/Ghost can beat a deathball. You can punish a turtling player by out-expoing him and overwhelming him with mass production.
Professional Protoss players do fine vs drops. And if the terran doesn't get damage done with drops, he is behind due to upgrades and AoE from Protoss. Saying that won't change the MSC with certainty is BS. Professional zergs were dealing with mines perfectly fine as well and they changed that.
And if you as a protoss are using the nexus cannon to turtle, then you are doing something wrong. The nexus cannon drops in effectiveness as the game progresses as armies get bigger and stronger. The issue with the cannon is it allows the protoss to play a tech/eco 'greedy' style. Once their tech kicks it, they will come fight you, they aren't turtling. It is similar to the issue with BL/infestor. Infestor only got strong because of Queens. The Queens buff made it so the zerg could go heavy eco with minimal army. So they get those first 6 infestors out a lot earlier. And they take advantage of that timing.
And I agree, once terran gets ghosts, vikings, 3/3 out. They can trade very evenly with the protoss deathball. The problem is the timing. With terrans having to slow down their early eco due to aggressive builds from Protoss being so good (oracle, blink all-ins, etc), there is a big timing where protoss has their 3/3 and their dual AoEs out before terran has their counters ready.
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God I hate storm. I just played a game where I forced a toss to stay on 2 bases while I took 4, and he just stormed his way to victory. I was clearly the superior player, his macro was atrocious. I move in for the killing blow (which is damn near impossible on toss bc even if you beat his army you have to have enough troops left over to be able to kill a planetary nexus) but he has 5 ht, 1 collosus and maybe like 15 zealots and just rofl stomps me. I had even pulled scvs because he had dts in my mineral lines so I just tried using them to soak damage. How is a spell that does 80 fucking damage for 75 energy balanced? They need to nerf that so hard. Drop it to like 50 damage or something ffs. I mean come on lets be real here..seeker missiles also cost 75 energy but take 5 seconds before they even launch. And then they have a smaller splash radius and less damage to boot. So fucking pathetic.
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On December 02 2013 13:05 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 12:44 Salient wrote:On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something? They won't change the MSC. It fixed PvP and made PvZ bearable to watch (not FFE vs. 3 hatch every game). Professional Terrans do fine against both the MSC and late game Protoss. Drops are still viable with Turbo-Medevacs. And Viking/Ghost can beat a deathball. You can punish a turtling player by out-expoing him and overwhelming him with mass production. Professional Protoss players do fine vs drops. And if the terran doesn't get damage done with drops, he is behind due to upgrades and AoE from Protoss. Saying that won't change the MSC with certainty is BS. Professional zergs were dealing with mines perfectly fine as well and they changed that. And if you as a protoss are using the nexus cannon to turtle, then you are doing something wrong. The nexus cannon drops in effectiveness as the game progresses as armies get bigger and stronger. The issue with the cannon is it allows the protoss to play a tech/eco 'greedy' style. Once their tech kicks it, they will come fight you, they aren't turtling. It is similar to the issue with BL/infestor. Infestor only got strong because of Queens. The Queens buff made it so the zerg could go heavy eco with minimal army. So they get those first 6 infestors out a lot earlier. And they take advantage of that timing. And I agree, once terran gets ghosts, vikings, 3/3 out. They can trade very evenly with the protoss deathball. The problem is the timing. With terrans having to slow down their early eco due to aggressive builds from Protoss being so good (oracle, blink all-ins, etc), there is a big timing where protoss has their 3/3 and their dual AoEs out before terran has their counters ready.
What's funny is that the WM nerf was supposed to promote tank use.
WHERE'S THE TANKS DAVID KIM
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I think where arguments about the mothership-core have more merit is when it pertains to mech tvp or blink stalkers. I feel there are definitely some early game issues in PVZ due to the mothershipcore, and how this unit has, at least for now, stunted early game options for terran. Reaper First and mass marines every time is very predictable and easy for Protoss to meta, this is not the case for Terran.
Mothership Core scout allows protoss on most maps to know what build terran is going before terran knows what build protoss is going, thus why 99% of matches in diamond/masters/GM are reaper first, you are essentially eternally forced to go reaper first to equalize when it comes to scouting.
1 mothership core and 2 stalkers will shut down various mech openings too especially early tanks, requiring lots of marines no matter what. The issue in this scenario is that mothership core negates defender's advantage/ high-ground advantage for terrans when going early tanks, hence why terrans -when going mech, don't open as mech. WoL of all things did allow for early tanks on high ground.
Blink + The Mothership Core causes a lot of issues that were not present in WoL with blink all ins, or 2 base blink. Terrans had the opportunity to delay blink by sniping the obs, or a hallucinated phoenix had a time limit. The mothership with more health than an observer and Time Warp guarantees blink allins to work to some extent, whether or not the location you blinked on to was a good choice. You can't stop the blink in from happening, you can only prepare for when the stalkers actually enter your base. With Time Warp you can have your stalkers escape, even if you made a mistake strategically and blinked in a wrong location, you can erase it by slowing the terrans army and escaping. This is very difficult to deal with counter/problem solve since with zerg all ins and terran all ins, if you make a critical mistake the game is over, but Time Warp blurs this concept, allowing the blink all in to continue for quite some time. If first you don't succeed, try try again.
The Mothership Core in Beta use to be locked to a nexus, but free to warp between nexus(did not require energy), could still recall units on the field if I remember correctly, photon charge too. Then they allowed the Mothership Core to move freely to help with map control I think, for PvZ, as well as scouting. Then a week before Beta was over they made hallucination not require research for better scouting which the Mothership core made it redundant or the sentry made the mothership core free-move redundant. They also changed Siege Tanks to not require researching Siege Mode to help defend in early game, but the mothership core at that point negated high ground advantage/ defenders advantage when going Siege Tanks.
I'm not sure what changes should be made though, if any. Making time warp require research may make the biggest difference, to cull some of the strength of the protoss all-ins.
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On December 02 2013 13:28 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 13:05 vthree wrote:On December 02 2013 12:44 Salient wrote:On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something? They won't change the MSC. It fixed PvP and made PvZ bearable to watch (not FFE vs. 3 hatch every game). Professional Terrans do fine against both the MSC and late game Protoss. Drops are still viable with Turbo-Medevacs. And Viking/Ghost can beat a deathball. You can punish a turtling player by out-expoing him and overwhelming him with mass production. Professional Protoss players do fine vs drops. And if the terran doesn't get damage done with drops, he is behind due to upgrades and AoE from Protoss. Saying that won't change the MSC with certainty is BS. Professional zergs were dealing with mines perfectly fine as well and they changed that. And if you as a protoss are using the nexus cannon to turtle, then you are doing something wrong. The nexus cannon drops in effectiveness as the game progresses as armies get bigger and stronger. The issue with the cannon is it allows the protoss to play a tech/eco 'greedy' style. Once their tech kicks it, they will come fight you, they aren't turtling. It is similar to the issue with BL/infestor. Infestor only got strong because of Queens. The Queens buff made it so the zerg could go heavy eco with minimal army. So they get those first 6 infestors out a lot earlier. And they take advantage of that timing. And I agree, once terran gets ghosts, vikings, 3/3 out. They can trade very evenly with the protoss deathball. The problem is the timing. With terrans having to slow down their early eco due to aggressive builds from Protoss being so good (oracle, blink all-ins, etc), there is a big timing where protoss has their 3/3 and their dual AoEs out before terran has their counters ready. What's funny is that the WM nerf was supposed to promote tank use. WHERE'S THE TANKS DAVID KIM
The tanks are in TvT, where they were already very very good. Now they skew the use of bio forces vs mech. That whole idea just didn't work out.
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MSC shouldn't be able to move, as it was in the early beta. Just switching base or something. It make blink way too strong because the protoss doesn't need obs anymore. I also don't understand the Time Warp thing ? Why ? It is so strong against everything, it doesn't reward the player who micro more but make the army totally inmicroable, Force Fields were enough I think.
They could changes a lot of things to the MSC : Over charge cost 125 energy ? The unit starts with 0 ? Shorter radius for the time warp ? shorter radius for the OverCharge ? much sorter vision (14 is a joke) ?
So many changes that could balance the whole thing...
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I just wish I had some allins I could play. There's essentially only 1 build for TvP (with small opening variants), and 1-2 openings for TvZ. All the builds are macro builds. Why does terran have to play macro games, every game? Why can't we have even the tiniest bit of strategic diversity?
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On December 02 2013 14:51 Fission wrote:
I just wish I had some allins I could play. There's essentially only 1 build for TvP (with small opening variants), and 1-2 openings for TvZ. All the builds are macro builds. Why does terran have to play macro games, every game? Why can't we have even the tiniest bit of strategic diversity?
you can 11/11
Honestly I don't think your complaint is valid unless you're a GM+ player. Anything lower can do a lot of different builds that are weird and can work. Taeja showed a cool gas first build against sOs which was a 6 marine/1 mine drop w/ 2 hellions and outright killed him if sOs didn't respond properly. Same with TvZ, there's a variety of reaper openings, cc first, hellbat drops, blue flame hellion, banshees...
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[/QUOTE] What's funny is that the WM nerf was supposed to promote tank use.
WHERE'S THE TANKS DAVID KIM
The tanks are in TvT, where they were already very very good. Now they skew the use of bio forces vs mech. That whole idea just didn't work out.
[/QUOTE]
I really wish they added about +10 to the armored damage. It would help them better perform against a number of toss units when properly set up while having a smaller impact on the other matchups (only affecting how many direct hit it takes to kill an ultra).
I feel tanks just don't scale very well into the late game as opposed to other units. Thus, we sometimes see them perform inadequately in "protecting their protectors"-the mine and hellbat-when well positioned.
My quote button seems to be misworking! XD I'll fix.
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If MsC were to be nerfed, what do you guys think of a movement speed nerf? Say, to 1.4062, same as the Mothership. I know that isn't a direct response to what a lot of TvP complaints are, but think about it:
-nerfs blink stalker all-ins
-nerfs MsC harass early game
-makes MsC positioning in-battle more important
-forces Protoss to use time warps to retreat army without losing MsC
-makes it possible to punish an out-of-position MsC before it gets a photon overcharge off
I'd also be a fan of reducing the casting range of photon overcharge so the MsC has to stay closer to the nexus to use it. Both of these seem like just about the smallest changes you could make to the matchup, which is good.
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On December 02 2013 06:45 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 06:26 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 02 2013 06:17 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 02 2013 06:02 Big J wrote:On December 02 2013 04:40 ChristianS wrote:Okay seriously, in the same dictionary you linked, it includes: -the effort, loss, or sacrifice necessary to achieve or obtain something. The example sentence (again, from your dictionary entry) is: the government succeeded in diverting resources away from consumption at considerable cost to its political popularity.The government did not exchange political popularity dollars for reduced resource consumption at the free market price. The term "cost" refers to that which was lost to obtain something else. In the same way that if I get really drunk on a Thursday, show up to work three hours late the next day with a hangover, and get fired, I might reasonably say "my night of partying cost me my job." This is the same dictionary entry that informs the dictionary program that comes standard on Mac OSX, as well as that which is used by Google, if you care to search "cost definition." The term isn't what's important, anyway. The term "cost" is just a short-hand for "slows my economy curve by ____", so just substitute that in whenever you see someone talking about the cost of a scan – or anything else, for that matter. well, that is actually what it means. the government had a certain amount of political popularity dollars and they had to gave away a considerable amount of them to achieve their goal. The important part being that they had it before, but not anymore afterwards. and well, slows my economy curve by ___ is very simply not a "it costs ___". the one is talking about an income rate, the other about something you have to have. it comes back to my worker example. a worker costs 50minerals. the fact that it returns money over time does not mean that delaying building that worker raises its price by the amount it could have mined in the delay. it still only costs 50minerals. Lol some people just dont know when to quit. Way to cherry pick what information you choose to use, thats always a good basis for discussion T_T. And a worker costing 50 minerals regardless of when you build it does not in any way prove your point. If anything it does the opposite. Not building a worker doesnt raise its price true, but not MULE-ing doesnt raise the price of the next mule either. However both have a very real negative impact of your economy and therefore have a negative economic cost associated with them. You're confusing cost with expected output. A mule costs 50 energy with an expected output of X minerals over 90 seconds. An SCV costs 50 minerals, with an expected output of X minerals per minute. You plan based on output but you implement based on cost. I'm confusing nothing. I know from many games played as Terran that if you're not dropping mules then your economy falls far behind. You can keep trying to confuse the situation as much as you want, but a scan does cost the economy of a Terran. Energy means nothing on its own, therefore it is beyond useless to describe a cost based on its loss. The only way to accurately describe the real cost of using that energy is to compare the opportunity cost of its use for one thing versus the other. I'm one semester removed from my corporate finance class and two from my managerial accounting class, and one thing that was drilled into us was that future opportunity cost is viewed as a very real thing in the business world. Its how the stock market works, as well as all capital investments. I think if the people managing billion dollar companies view expected output as a cost of a decision, I will too. If you're so sure that using energy for scans instead of mules does not cost the Terran's economy, I think you should start playing games as Protoss without using energy to chronoboost probes. You're going to build the probes either way, right? You're going to get income from them regardless, right? So if thats true I guess you don't need to get that income any faster, because according to you, the slowing of the economy does not constitute a cost.
Then you need to be more aware of the fundamentals of business.
Overhead - Command Center
Direct Cost - 50 energy
Expected output - 180 minerals/minute
In business you predict based on expected output, but you implement based on direct cost, and you make those decisions relative to the overhead.
You normally expect 50 energy to produce 180 minerals/minute and hence calculate predictions based on that expectation as an axiom. But these are not truisms. A killed mule makes 0 minerals. A mule dropped to repair makes 0 minerals. A mule dropped to force splash damage in a tank line produces 0 minerals. etc....
The true output and the expected output of a mule does not equal each other. You normally expect Mules to produce minerals, but not all mule drops are specifically for minerals. This is why it is important to distinguish expected output from direct cost because the intent of the action varies in context to the circumstance serving as the impetus of the action.
There are builds that are designed expecting X amount of mules cast over Y minutes. One could easily design a different build that requires X - Z mules over Y minutes instead. The differences between them are purely strategic and merely determines how greedy one build is compared to another.
For example, a 1rax FE that sends out a scout hits different timings than a 1rax FE without a scout.
One is considered playing more greedy than the other. The cost for scouting is 1 scv and not 40 minerals/minute over X minutes where X is the length of time the SCV is kept alive. The reason is because the direct cost is just 1 SCV. Whether or not 40 minerals/minute is more important than scouting information is a strategic choice. Much like the choice between scanning and muling is also a strategic choice.
The builds you prioritize and the play style you emphasize places strategic importance in mules over scouting information. That is merely a strategic preference. It makes sense. Mules allows you to keep pace when Protoss is ahead in workers, and when you both get to fully saturated bases you still emphasize mule drops to "get ahead" of the protoss. I too prefer that style of econ management. But just because you and I prefer employing that strategy does not mean that that strategy is the only one viable and that that strategy should be the only context we are allowed to see a Mule.
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On December 02 2013 13:28 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 13:05 vthree wrote:On December 02 2013 12:44 Salient wrote:On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something? They won't change the MSC. It fixed PvP and made PvZ bearable to watch (not FFE vs. 3 hatch every game). Professional Terrans do fine against both the MSC and late game Protoss. Drops are still viable with Turbo-Medevacs. And Viking/Ghost can beat a deathball. You can punish a turtling player by out-expoing him and overwhelming him with mass production. Professional Protoss players do fine vs drops. And if the terran doesn't get damage done with drops, he is behind due to upgrades and AoE from Protoss. Saying that won't change the MSC with certainty is BS. Professional zergs were dealing with mines perfectly fine as well and they changed that. And if you as a protoss are using the nexus cannon to turtle, then you are doing something wrong. The nexus cannon drops in effectiveness as the game progresses as armies get bigger and stronger. The issue with the cannon is it allows the protoss to play a tech/eco 'greedy' style. Once their tech kicks it, they will come fight you, they aren't turtling. It is similar to the issue with BL/infestor. Infestor only got strong because of Queens. The Queens buff made it so the zerg could go heavy eco with minimal army. So they get those first 6 infestors out a lot earlier. And they take advantage of that timing. And I agree, once terran gets ghosts, vikings, 3/3 out. They can trade very evenly with the protoss deathball. The problem is the timing. With terrans having to slow down their early eco due to aggressive builds from Protoss being so good (oracle, blink all-ins, etc), there is a big timing where protoss has their 3/3 and their dual AoEs out before terran has their counters ready. What's funny is that the WM nerf was supposed to promote tank use. WHERE'S THE TANKS DAVID KIM
Give the meta time to develop. I remember when people were pissed about the overseer upgrade buff, thinking that it would not make much of a difference. Now, it does make somewhat of a difference and easier for the mutalisks to snipe the WM. If you are thinking about games like Life vs TaeJa, I think it's Life's fault for having inadequate creep spread. If you don't have good creep spread, then well, the MMMMM will outmaneuver your ling/banelings, and your banelings won't connect. Also, if you have been watching the IEM games, mech from Mvp has shown some pretty cool games! If mech doesn't work out, then Blizzard will introduce another minor buff for them. Right now, it's best to take their time and prevent the GGlord/Winfestor era.
On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something?
Well, the early game part is understandable for the Protoss's POV, so I don't agree with your nerf. If you look at PvP, a lot of players do not have any form of defender's advantage. Also, in PvT, Terran cheeses were relatively common and killed off a lot of Protoss players.
I'm just saying that MSC is a bit too good during the mid-game. At the moment, Terrans cannot exercise any form of aggression against the Protoss. Thus, Terrans are focus on becoming greedy and build up their unit composition. However, the problem is that the Terrans have to sacrifice their greed, due to the harassment options (oracle/warp prism/Stalker blink all-ins) that the Protoss have.
Like I said, a slight nerf like a cooldown mechanic would give Terrans some more room and a timing window for harassment and prevent the Protoss from abusing their defensive options.
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EPT
