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On December 02 2013 16:29 hansonslee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 13:28 Chaggi wrote:On December 02 2013 13:05 vthree wrote:On December 02 2013 12:44 Salient wrote:On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something? They won't change the MSC. It fixed PvP and made PvZ bearable to watch (not FFE vs. 3 hatch every game). Professional Terrans do fine against both the MSC and late game Protoss. Drops are still viable with Turbo-Medevacs. And Viking/Ghost can beat a deathball. You can punish a turtling player by out-expoing him and overwhelming him with mass production. Professional Protoss players do fine vs drops. And if the terran doesn't get damage done with drops, he is behind due to upgrades and AoE from Protoss. Saying that won't change the MSC with certainty is BS. Professional zergs were dealing with mines perfectly fine as well and they changed that. And if you as a protoss are using the nexus cannon to turtle, then you are doing something wrong. The nexus cannon drops in effectiveness as the game progresses as armies get bigger and stronger. The issue with the cannon is it allows the protoss to play a tech/eco 'greedy' style. Once their tech kicks it, they will come fight you, they aren't turtling. It is similar to the issue with BL/infestor. Infestor only got strong because of Queens. The Queens buff made it so the zerg could go heavy eco with minimal army. So they get those first 6 infestors out a lot earlier. And they take advantage of that timing. And I agree, once terran gets ghosts, vikings, 3/3 out. They can trade very evenly with the protoss deathball. The problem is the timing. With terrans having to slow down their early eco due to aggressive builds from Protoss being so good (oracle, blink all-ins, etc), there is a big timing where protoss has their 3/3 and their dual AoEs out before terran has their counters ready. What's funny is that the WM nerf was supposed to promote tank use. WHERE'S THE TANKS DAVID KIM Give the meta time to develop. I remember when people were pissed about the overseer upgrade buff, thinking that it would not make much of a difference. Now, it does make somewhat of a difference and easier for the mutalisks to snipe the WM. If you are thinking about games like Life vs TaeJa, I think it's Life's fault for having inadequate creep spread. If you don't have good creep spread, then well, the MMMMM will outmaneuver your ling/banelings, and your banelings won't connect. Also, if you have been watching the IEM games, mech from Mvp has shown some pretty cool games! If mech doesn't work out, then Blizzard will introduce another minor buff for them. Right now, it's best to take their time and prevent the GGlord/Winfestor era.
I don't think the tank buff was responsible for MVP winning with mech, much more the upgrades merge and really top notched strategies used by MVP.
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On December 02 2013 16:29 hansonslee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 13:28 Chaggi wrote:On December 02 2013 13:05 vthree wrote:On December 02 2013 12:44 Salient wrote:On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something? They won't change the MSC. It fixed PvP and made PvZ bearable to watch (not FFE vs. 3 hatch every game). Professional Terrans do fine against both the MSC and late game Protoss. Drops are still viable with Turbo-Medevacs. And Viking/Ghost can beat a deathball. You can punish a turtling player by out-expoing him and overwhelming him with mass production. Professional Protoss players do fine vs drops. And if the terran doesn't get damage done with drops, he is behind due to upgrades and AoE from Protoss. Saying that won't change the MSC with certainty is BS. Professional zergs were dealing with mines perfectly fine as well and they changed that. And if you as a protoss are using the nexus cannon to turtle, then you are doing something wrong. The nexus cannon drops in effectiveness as the game progresses as armies get bigger and stronger. The issue with the cannon is it allows the protoss to play a tech/eco 'greedy' style. Once their tech kicks it, they will come fight you, they aren't turtling. It is similar to the issue with BL/infestor. Infestor only got strong because of Queens. The Queens buff made it so the zerg could go heavy eco with minimal army. So they get those first 6 infestors out a lot earlier. And they take advantage of that timing. And I agree, once terran gets ghosts, vikings, 3/3 out. They can trade very evenly with the protoss deathball. The problem is the timing. With terrans having to slow down their early eco due to aggressive builds from Protoss being so good (oracle, blink all-ins, etc), there is a big timing where protoss has their 3/3 and their dual AoEs out before terran has their counters ready. What's funny is that the WM nerf was supposed to promote tank use. WHERE'S THE TANKS DAVID KIM Give the meta time to develop. I remember when people were pissed about the overseer upgrade buff, thinking that it would not make much of a difference. Now, it does make somewhat of a difference and easier for the mutalisks to snipe the WM. If you are thinking about games like Life vs TaeJa, I think it's Life's fault for having inadequate creep spread. If you don't have good creep spread, then well, the MMMMM will outmaneuver your ling/banelings, and your banelings won't connect. Also, if you have been watching the IEM games, mech from Mvp has shown some pretty cool games! If mech doesn't work out, then Blizzard will introduce another minor buff for them. Right now, it's best to take their time and prevent the GGlord/Winfestor era.
Thing is though, the mines provide/fill the anti-baneling role much better than tanks-even post nerf.
Tanks were never designed to kill clumps of small units. They are designed for high alpha damage and range-aka, anti armor (The operate under the impression that you have bursted down threats before they close). Which means they need staggered position, often a wall or shield in front of them, or a terrain advantage. Bio units don't really perform well in that roll (those poor tanks get left behind when you're splitting- the horror!)
Even in wol, tanks began to become obsolete as the game wore on, they were phased out as both players added tech, upgrades, and production (especially when zerg tech units came out). They became too immobile and too costly to deal with.
The mine is the perfect addition to bio comps. It is nimble, expendable, and can be reactored. It requires no upgrades.
Also, the tank buff is really, really underwhelming. Factoring in pathing and random delay, the chance of hitting a clump of melee ranged units an additional time (like a bane clump) is rather low. In fact-hitting most units an additional time before they complete a firing cycle (in the case of ranged units) is low. Considering that this buff was to "help the tank against its counters", it seems hardly the right move (immortals, archons, zealots, even collosi will still most likely get the same amount of shits off on a tank group as they would before).
The tank deserves an alpha damage buff.
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On December 02 2013 16:30 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 16:29 hansonslee wrote:On December 02 2013 13:28 Chaggi wrote:On December 02 2013 13:05 vthree wrote:On December 02 2013 12:44 Salient wrote:On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something? They won't change the MSC. It fixed PvP and made PvZ bearable to watch (not FFE vs. 3 hatch every game). Professional Terrans do fine against both the MSC and late game Protoss. Drops are still viable with Turbo-Medevacs. And Viking/Ghost can beat a deathball. You can punish a turtling player by out-expoing him and overwhelming him with mass production. Professional Protoss players do fine vs drops. And if the terran doesn't get damage done with drops, he is behind due to upgrades and AoE from Protoss. Saying that won't change the MSC with certainty is BS. Professional zergs were dealing with mines perfectly fine as well and they changed that. And if you as a protoss are using the nexus cannon to turtle, then you are doing something wrong. The nexus cannon drops in effectiveness as the game progresses as armies get bigger and stronger. The issue with the cannon is it allows the protoss to play a tech/eco 'greedy' style. Once their tech kicks it, they will come fight you, they aren't turtling. It is similar to the issue with BL/infestor. Infestor only got strong because of Queens. The Queens buff made it so the zerg could go heavy eco with minimal army. So they get those first 6 infestors out a lot earlier. And they take advantage of that timing. And I agree, once terran gets ghosts, vikings, 3/3 out. They can trade very evenly with the protoss deathball. The problem is the timing. With terrans having to slow down their early eco due to aggressive builds from Protoss being so good (oracle, blink all-ins, etc), there is a big timing where protoss has their 3/3 and their dual AoEs out before terran has their counters ready. What's funny is that the WM nerf was supposed to promote tank use. WHERE'S THE TANKS DAVID KIM Give the meta time to develop. I remember when people were pissed about the overseer upgrade buff, thinking that it would not make much of a difference. Now, it does make somewhat of a difference and easier for the mutalisks to snipe the WM. If you are thinking about games like Life vs TaeJa, I think it's Life's fault for having inadequate creep spread. If you don't have good creep spread, then well, the MMMMM will outmaneuver your ling/banelings, and your banelings won't connect. Also, if you have been watching the IEM games, mech from Mvp has shown some pretty cool games! If mech doesn't work out, then Blizzard will introduce another minor buff for them. Right now, it's best to take their time and prevent the GGlord/Winfestor era. I don't think the tank buff was responsible for MVP winning with mech, much more the upgrades merge and really top notched strategies used by MVP.
Yeah, combined upgrades ftw! I don't think that's the *only* reason he won, but it certainty did help!
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On December 02 2013 16:40 nomufftotuff wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 16:29 hansonslee wrote:On December 02 2013 13:28 Chaggi wrote:On December 02 2013 13:05 vthree wrote:On December 02 2013 12:44 Salient wrote:On December 02 2013 12:22 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 02 2013 12:16 Iron_ wrote:On December 02 2013 07:34 hansonslee wrote:
I don't know if this unit has been talked to death, but one unit that needs some working is the Mothership Core.
First, I will state why it is necessary. In WoL, we have seen how a lot of Protoss players lose games because of their deathball being out of position, and unlike other zerg and terran compositions, they are relatively immobile. Also, Protoss has been a victim of a lot of early cheeses, so it's imperative for the Protoss to be able to withstand the early aggression.
Now, I will talk about why Blizzard might need to look at it in the future.
The photon overcharge has discouraged a lot of mid-game aggression for the Terran players, which is why TvP has been considered to be a challenge lately. I think it would be nice, if there was a cooldown mechanic. Like if one photon overcharge has been used, then you can harass the other base. In other words, this would promote Protoss players to be more frugal with their photon overcharges.
I really hope that Blizzard considers the mothership core and how it has theoretically placed Protoss on a bit too comfortable of a position lately. It certainly has been talked to death between Terran players, but I hope it continues to get more notice. The nexus cannon just needs to get out of the game. Cooldowns, costs, etc make no difference because it doesn't address the issue with the cannon. The cannon is not a problem at 15-20 minutes (it's annoying, but that isn't the real issue). The issue is that the protoss can do any number of cheese/pressure openings without any risk. This is the issue. The only change to the cannon that could really help this problem is to somehow make it not available until the mid game. Maybe they should make it an upgrade on the cyber core? Maybe like 100/100 and 90 seconds or something? They won't change the MSC. It fixed PvP and made PvZ bearable to watch (not FFE vs. 3 hatch every game). Professional Terrans do fine against both the MSC and late game Protoss. Drops are still viable with Turbo-Medevacs. And Viking/Ghost can beat a deathball. You can punish a turtling player by out-expoing him and overwhelming him with mass production. Professional Protoss players do fine vs drops. And if the terran doesn't get damage done with drops, he is behind due to upgrades and AoE from Protoss. Saying that won't change the MSC with certainty is BS. Professional zergs were dealing with mines perfectly fine as well and they changed that. And if you as a protoss are using the nexus cannon to turtle, then you are doing something wrong. The nexus cannon drops in effectiveness as the game progresses as armies get bigger and stronger. The issue with the cannon is it allows the protoss to play a tech/eco 'greedy' style. Once their tech kicks it, they will come fight you, they aren't turtling. It is similar to the issue with BL/infestor. Infestor only got strong because of Queens. The Queens buff made it so the zerg could go heavy eco with minimal army. So they get those first 6 infestors out a lot earlier. And they take advantage of that timing. And I agree, once terran gets ghosts, vikings, 3/3 out. They can trade very evenly with the protoss deathball. The problem is the timing. With terrans having to slow down their early eco due to aggressive builds from Protoss being so good (oracle, blink all-ins, etc), there is a big timing where protoss has their 3/3 and their dual AoEs out before terran has their counters ready. What's funny is that the WM nerf was supposed to promote tank use. WHERE'S THE TANKS DAVID KIM Give the meta time to develop. I remember when people were pissed about the overseer upgrade buff, thinking that it would not make much of a difference. Now, it does make somewhat of a difference and easier for the mutalisks to snipe the WM. If you are thinking about games like Life vs TaeJa, I think it's Life's fault for having inadequate creep spread. If you don't have good creep spread, then well, the MMMMM will outmaneuver your ling/banelings, and your banelings won't connect. Also, if you have been watching the IEM games, mech from Mvp has shown some pretty cool games! If mech doesn't work out, then Blizzard will introduce another minor buff for them. Right now, it's best to take their time and prevent the GGlord/Winfestor era. Thing is though, the mines provide/fill the anti-baneling role much better than tanks-even post nerf. Tanks were never designed to kill clumps of small units. They are designed for high alpha damage and range-aka, anti armor (The operate under the impression that you have bursted down threats before they close). Which means they need staggered position, often a wall or shield in front of them, or a terrain advantage. Bio units don't really perform well in that roll (those poor tanks get left behind when you're splitting- the horror!) Even in wol, tanks began to become obsolete as the game wore on, they were phased out as both players added tech, upgrades, and production (especially when zerg tech units came out). They became too immobile and too costly to deal with.The mine is the perfect addition to bio comps. It is nimble, expendable, and can be reactored. It requires no upgrades. Also, the tank buff is really, really underwhelming. Factoring in pathing and random delay, the chance of hitting a clump of melee ranged units an additional time (like a bane clump) is rather low. In fact-hitting most units an additional time before they complete a firing cycle (in the case of ranged units) is low. Considering that this buff was to "help the tank against its counters", it seems hardly the right move (immortals, archons, zealots, even collosi will still most likely get the same amount of shits off on a tank group as they would before). The tank deserves an alpha damage buff.
Not really, rather the opposite. Many Terrans would go for 2-3factory bio/tank against Zerg since tanks are really good against banelings and efficient against infestors and zerglings (and roaches and hydras; also not really bad against ultras), especially in medium/high counts.
Not to mention that full out Mech with multiple factory tank was roughly as good as bio/tank.
Problem in both scenarios was when the Broodlords came out and the - necessary - tanks couldn't deal with the infestors as well, as those dealt with the vikings, marines, medivacs in combo with the BLs...
Though I can fully agree with the rest of your post. The tank buff was minor, and mines are just much better with bio since they
a) also deal with the buffed mutalisks
b) allow you to push with lesser armies, which means you push mutalisks home, and force the zerg to stay on lower tech
while tanks advantages are basically
a) better against roaches, hydras, infestors - units that you don't really need to counter much more than the bio already does (though it's definitely worth it to use some tanks against them); also ultras, though neither the mine nor the tanks is really good against them, so not really a good argument for building tanks
b) better in bigger battles - unless the opponent brings vipers, then you wish you had mines instead.
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Even in WoL after the queen buff, marine tank pushes were reduced to 2-2 timing push to do significant damage to zerg before hive tech units come out. Usually it would mean killing the 4th base of zerg and reducing gas income and then transition to anti infestor-broodlord army and ditching tanks completely. You would rarely see that sC vs. Nestea style pushes anymore.
In Hots, with the introduction of faster and more durable mutas, tanks become even worse than in WoL.
1. Hots mutas make it easier to fly around the marine - tank army and snipe individual tanks until zerg can attack into the tank line.
2. Marine - tank army makes it impossible to retreat so in case of counter attack, terran would be forced to base trade in most cases
3. Marine - tank army pushes are way slower than bio + mine pushes which means there will be less engagements in the game and zerg will spend less gas on rebuilding banelings which then means faster hive tech and faster 3-3 upgrades.
So if the true reason of WM nerf was not balance issue but rather a play style issue, I don't see how tanks could ever be viable without reducing the strength of Hots mutas.
Great zergs like Life can do magic with mutas and buy almost infinite amounts of time to get back into the game even when they are behind. And that is against mobile bio+wm+medivac army. Good example was the game between Taeja and Life on Yeonsu where Life had decent chances until he blew up his mutas to mine trap. This problem would be even more pronounced if terran would play less mobile marine-tank.
So only chance of diversity in the matchup is if terran can play both bio+mine and mech with equal chances of winning. Since I believe bio+mine is still superior, it will probably remain the preferred choice in the matchup, which means that WM nerf basically accomplished nothing.
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So only chance of diversity in the matchup is if terran can play both bio+mine and mech with equal chances of winning. Since I believe bio+mine is still superior, it will probably remain the preferred choice in the matchup, which means that WM nerf basically accomplished nothing.
The full extent of the mech/air upgrade merger is still yet to be discovered, please bear with my fellow terrans to work out new strong timings! I am looking forward to heavily upgraded banshees vs immortals and vikings vs vipers. Will double armory be standard in tvt??
The mine nerf did make the mines seem a little less random, and triggering mines to friendly-fire is a lot less powerful now. Seeing taeja winning with the pre-patch MMMM, and MVP winning with mech made me very optimistic about the tvz matchup.
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Hey guys, what do you do to counter mass blink stalker? I'm not saying OP - I literally don't know what the answer to it is. I try mass speedling, but that doesn't work too well against a bunch of stalkers, and on maps like Daybreak where the 3rd is pretty choked, roaches don't do so well either. Hydras?
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On December 02 2013 19:30 Grovbolle wrote:http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/New numbers are out: PvT (55.05%) 812 games PvZ (49.72%) 1265 games TvZ (48.63%) 769 games Whine initiated.
The PvT numbers among the not top top terrans most be really bad then because I thought the numbers would be more even because the usual terran masterminds were still somehow doing OK. But thats just the impression I had, I've hardly watched those 812 games :o. Interesting numbers...
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On December 02 2013 19:30 Grovbolle wrote:http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/New numbers are out: PvT (55.05%) 812 games PvZ (49.72%) 1265 games TvZ (48.63%) 769 games Whine initiated.
Must admit that the terran performance chart is pretty funny 
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On December 02 2013 19:30 Grovbolle wrote:http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/New numbers are out: PvT (55.05%) 812 games PvZ (49.72%) 1265 games TvZ (48.63%) 769 games Whine initiated.
Zerg is back. Someone wake Stephano from hibernation!
Just kidding, the numbers look pretty much balanced around Blizzard's +5/-5 criteria.
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On December 02 2013 19:30 chairmobile wrote:
Hey guys, what do you do to counter mass blink stalker? I'm not saying OP - I literally don't know what the answer to it is. I try mass speedling, but that doesn't work too well against a bunch of stalkers, and on maps like Daybreak where the 3rd is pretty choked, roaches don't do so well either. Hydras?
Fungal Growth prevents blink micro and enables your roaches and lings to quickly dispatch of the stalkers.
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On December 02 2013 19:59 BobMcJohnson wrote:Must admit that the terran performance chart is pretty funny
Let's just add it for reference then:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/StrX5VQ.png)
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On December 02 2013 21:15 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 19:59 BobMcJohnson wrote:On December 02 2013 19:30 Grovbolle wrote:http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/New numbers are out: PvT (55.05%) 812 games PvZ (49.72%) 1265 games TvZ (48.63%) 769 games Whine initiated. Must admit that the terran performance chart is pretty funny Let's just add it for reference then:
First big tournament was GSL in April. So it is basically 3-4 months of terran doing good, even too good and 4-5 months of terran on a slow and steady decline.
I can't help but think of this as WoL but with much smaller time frame where terran had big edge at the start but got weaker and weaker as the time went by.
I really hope the graph will stabilize at one point. Patches are so frequent that it is hard to say what is because of the balance and what is because of players needing adjustment to the metagame.
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Well, the unfortunate thing is that the last balance update included most of the tournament games to be played until after the holidays. There's only one major tournament left, and that's it.
So the stats we have now are basically all we have for months.
Edit: To add to that, the last major tournament: Asus ROG NorthCon will be very terran-favoured. There's MMA, Inno and Jjakji, the Z only have Life and JaeKong, and the Protoss is represented by the biggest disappointment: Stardust, and the above average San.
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It's not a good time to be a Terran player. Oh well, back to "innovating"
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On December 02 2013 22:30 Ghanburighan wrote:
Well, the unfortunate thing is that the last balance update included most of the tournament games to be played until after the holidays. There's only one major tournament left, and that's it.
So the stats we have now are basically all we have for months.
Edit: To add to that, the last major tournament: Asus ROG NorthCon will be very terran-favoured. There's MMA, Inno and Jjakji, the Z only have Life and JaeKong, and the Protoss is represented by the biggest disappointment: Stardust, and the above average San.
MMA and Jjakji don't even make it into the top5 of their race currently. (Maru, Taeja, INnoVation being the clear top3, and Bomber, Polt, Flash, Supernova are probably all better than those two).
Meanwhile Jaedong and Life are pretty easily in the top5 for Zerg and Dreamhack showed pretty clearly that Life has to be favored over INnoVation currently.
Also Scarlett has shown that she is clearly capable of beating any of those players.
I really wouldn't call this tournament Terranfavored. The Protoss lineup falls off a little, but Zerg is represented by some of their best players.
And yeah, I'm pretty sure we will get some valueable content. There is also the Hot6 Cup (or whatever it is named) and aligulac stats are first and foremost based off smaller cups anyways. So if you trust in them, most of their sources will still be played out.
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On December 02 2013 19:59 Salient wrote:Zerg is back. Someone wake Stephano from hibernation! Just kidding, the numbers look pretty much balanced around Blizzard's +5/-5 criteria.
Not really. These numbers will eventually go towards 50-50 as well (just as blizzard's ladder stats), and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. The only thing that really strikes my eye is how underrepresented terran is on the tournament scene with much fewer games played. This once against signals that terran is hugely underrepresented at the competitive/pro level. There are roughly 50% less terran games than with the other races which signals a giant imbalance - similarly to what we see on the ladder.
It's really a shame that Blizzard doesn't have a proper system in place for interpreting results in a meaningufl way. With a proper stastistic, terran's adjusted w/r would likely be below 40%.
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On December 03 2013 01:51 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 22:30 Ghanburighan wrote:
Well, the unfortunate thing is that the last balance update included most of the tournament games to be played until after the holidays. There's only one major tournament left, and that's it.
So the stats we have now are basically all we have for months.
Edit: To add to that, the last major tournament: Asus ROG NorthCon will be very terran-favoured. There's MMA, Inno and Jjakji, the Z only have Life and JaeKong, and the Protoss is represented by the biggest disappointment: Stardust, and the above average San. MMA and Jjakji don't even make it into the top5 of their race currently. (Maru, Taeja, INnoVation being the clear top3, and Bomber, Polt, Flash, Supernova are probably all better than those two). Meanwhile Jaedong and Life are pretty easily in the top5 for Zerg and Dreamhack showed pretty clearly that Life has to be favored over INnoVation currently. Also Scarlett has shown that she is clearly capable of beating any of those players. I really wouldn't call this tournament Terranfavored. The Protoss lineup falls off a little, but Zerg is represented by some of their best players. And yeah, I'm pretty sure we will get some valuable content. There is also the Hot6 Cup (or whatever it is named) and aligulac stats are first and foremost based off smaller cups anyways. So if you trust in them, most of their sources will still be played out.
I don't think you can say:
a) Life>Inno because of 1 Bo3.
b) Jaedong > MMA/Jjakji, despite him doing badly in his last 2 tournaments, and because he recently lost to MMA 2-0
c) Scarlett is better than MMA and Jjakji. Scarlett is doing better now, but she recently lost to MMA. And, historically, she's out of their league.
I'm perfectly fine with saying that there are 3 strong TvZ players in the tournament: Life, Jaedong and Scarlett, though.
Still, my main point was that P is underrepresented, and it's really PvT where the bigger divide seems to lie. It's possible that Scarlett goes deep, but loses to some P, that P gets crushed by Inno because, well, it's Inno v second-rate P, and everyone will say balance is hunky-dory.
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On December 03 2013 01:56 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 19:59 Salient wrote:On December 02 2013 19:30 Grovbolle wrote:http://aligulac.com/reports/balance/New numbers are out: PvT (55.05%) 812 games PvZ (49.72%) 1265 games TvZ (48.63%) 769 games Whine initiated. Zerg is back. Someone wake Stephano from hibernation! Just kidding, the numbers look pretty much balanced around Blizzard's +5/-5 criteria. Not really. These numbers will eventually go towards 50-50 as well (just as blizzard's ladder stats), and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. The only thing that really strikes my eye is how underrepresented terran is on the tournament scene with much fewer games played. This once against signals that terran is hugely underrepresented at the competitive/pro level. There are roughly 50% less terran games than with the other races which signals a giant imbalance - similarly to what we see on the ladder. It's really a shame that Blizzard doesn't have a proper system in place for interpreting results in a meaningufl way. With a proper stastistic, terran's adjusted w/r would likely be below 40%.
Terran dominated WCS in 2013. Zerg was grossly underrepresented at Blizzcon due to overpowered Hellbats and to a much lesser extent widow mines. Let's see if the Terran dominance finally subsides in 2014.
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EPT
