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i have to say it, i had 4-5 months pause of gaming because of the widow mines, it is so frustrating for me.. i know that it is just my opinion but i had to say it.. i know how easy it was to play BW or WoL.. when i was a C+ in bw there was no chance D rank player would beat me, or silver in WoL.. but now, it is enough to be a terran.. i mean, i can beat that bo with roaches because terrans on my level aren't as skilled as i am in most of the situations... BUT, if they are then my roach push will be denied and in mid/late game mines + drops will beat me hard... i had 27-12 win ratio last season and 2-5 these season against terrans so it's not like i'm losing every game but from games i've lost i can see what is bothering me
ok, just to give an answers.. like you can see it, mines are frustrating in every situatio - harass, pushing, defending... terrans just have no reason to split their army because one shot of 3-4 wm destroyes so much.. you can watch out, you can split your army etc. but on platinum level no one can do that (they wouldn't be max platinum if they could)... if wm would be more expensive then it would be harder to get them and if you would lose them it would mean something...
protoss is imbalanced, ofcourse, it si too obvious.. protoss can do a cannon rush (cheese) and make an exp you can't break, it can do an all in from two bases, so strong all in that players like JD or soulkey can't do a shit to it.. and protoss can repeat everything from game to game, you can tell what will happen but it can't help you much.. and in first 10 minutes protoss has just too many openings because protoss can make an exp easier than terrans or zergs so income is abnormal for them in first 10 minutes and they can deviate.. it's not absurd, just watch progamers and there will be no need for any citation.. game is imbalanced in toss favour.. terrans have harder time against protoss on highest level, i have to admit it, it is sad to watch tvp.. maru against dear was so sad to watch because maru was more skilled and better player... so sad
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
platinum level
protoss is imbalanced
Why does it matter to you what jaedong or soulkey does?
maru against dear was so sad to watch because maru was more skilled and better player... so sad
And how are you supposed to decide that, as a weak player? Dear is one of the best players in the world.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On November 14 2013 04:47 purgerinho wrote:
i have to say it, i had 4-5 months pause of gaming because of the widow mines, it is so frustrating for me.. i know that it is just my opinion but i had to say it.. i know how easy it was to play BW or WoL.. when i was a C+ in bw there was no chance D rank player would beat me, or silver in WoL.. but now, it is enough to be a terran.. i mean, i can beat that bo with roaches because terrans on my level aren't as skilled as i am in most of the situations... BUT, if they are then my roach push will be denied and in mid/late game mines + drops will beat me hard... i had 27-12 win ratio last season and 2-5 these season against terrans so it's not like i'm losing every game but from games i've lost i can see what is bothering me
ok, just to give an answers.. like you can see it, mines are frustrating in every situatio - harass, pushing, defending... terrans just have no reason to split their army because one shot of 3-4 wm destroyes so much.. you can watch out, you can split your army etc. but on platinum level no one can do that (they wouldn't be max platinum if they could)... if wm would be more expensive then it would be harder to get them and if you would lose them it would mean something...
protoss is imbalanced, ofcourse, it si too obvious.. protoss can do a cannon rush (cheese) and make an exp you can't break, it can do an all in from two bases, so strong all in that players like JD or soulkey can't do a shit to it.. and protoss can repeat everything from game to game, you can tell what will happen but it can't help you much.. and in first 10 minutes protoss has just too many openings because protoss can make an exp easier than terrans or zergs so income is abnormal for them in first 10 minutes and they can deviate.. it's not absurd, just watch progamers and there will be no need for any citation.. game is imbalanced in toss favour.. terrans have harder time against protoss on highest level, i have to admit it, it is sad to watch tvp.. maru against dear was so sad to watch because maru was more skilled and better player... so sad
terrans are stomped by good engagement sense and decent multitasking. Aka by being better player.
Protoss is tricky, but balanced.
/thread.
And yes, give terran options T_T
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On November 14 2013 04:53 Cyro wrote:Why does it matter to you what jaedong or soulkey does? Show nested quote +maru against dear was so sad to watch because maru was more skilled and better player... so sad And how are you supposed to decide that, as a weak player? Dear is one of the best players in the world.
hahah, this is like saying someone that can't play football doesn't understand the game or that such a person shouldn't care if ref makes a mistake that will ruin the game, cmon :D or saying that messi knows more about football than some sport journalist just because he plays and sport journalist maybe never played at competetive level.. etc, etc, etc
and of course dear is one of the best, as sos is but current state of the game helps them, like hellbats helped terrans, or infestors helped zergs... protoss can push you and recall (there is a less risk), protoss has the strongest defence so it is easier to defend any rush/cheese, protoss has strongest units and it can be at 200/200 2/2 with only two bases in 10-12 minutes and it is scary... it is not normal for a game that one race can all in at almost same way for three years already..
this is a balance thread so i said my frustrations in it and thoughts about protoss at highest level.. i think widow mines are imbalanced and too hard to counter and that is it.. it gives a chance to weaker players to stay compete with better players - at lower level beacuse there is less timing attacks, less micro or macro etc. on the other hand, protoss at platinum level is easy to break because at that level people can't micro/macro and make timing attacks.. protoss and zerg players just don't have an unit that will "play" for them as terran do 
my opinion is that terran can get widow mines too fast for small amount of mineral/gas.. infestors were imba but to get them you needed time, tech and a lot of gas
you can agree or not, i just wanted to share my frustrations about widow mines and to say something about balance - that is not exist with protoss we have right now
edit: wcs tournaments are the best answer, we all can see amount of protoss, terran or zerg... it is not one time thing, it happens for 6-8 months already
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So you play Zerg, and your general conclusion is that:
a) Terran is just too good. Widow mines are just too frustrating, too good, too low risk. They play for you, and are clearly a skill-less unit!
b) Protoss is totally OP. All the Protoss players who are beating non-Protoss players are probably only doing it because of imbalance. For instance, <list of racial strengths of the Protoss race>!
Regarding your Protoss complaints, the state of TvP is very much in question right now, but it seems a little too soon to draw any big conclusions. That's at least an interesting conversation to have, although broad statements like "Protoss is too good because they have good units" are pretty worthless. The big units Terrans are having a problem with are the core units like colossi, HTs, and archons – all of which have been in the game virtually unchanged since WoL. If your complaints are PvZ, I hadn't heard there was a big problem there, but I don't keep track of the matchup so maybe you're right for all I know.
Regarding your Terran complaints – congratulations! You've identified your problem matchup! In early 2011 TvZ was my problem matchup, because it seemed like Zerg always had map control, could all-in at any moment without any warning, and never had to engage my army until it would clearly be favorable for them. Then I studied the matchup, identified timings where the Zerg would virtually always be passive, and timings where an all-in could occur, and improved my marine splitting micro. Soon my TvZ was pretty strong. Currently my problem matchup is TvP.
I know it feels good to blame your problems on balance, but I swear to you your frustrations in the matchup are meaningless for overall balance. At the time I was struggling TvZ, Terrans in general were doing quite well. The last time TvP was my big problem matchup was during the so-called "Sad Zealot" period, when Protoss as a whole were despairing about the PvT matchup. Widow mines are a fairly difficult-to-use unit, so you're not really correct to assume lower-level Terrans are significantly helped by their apparent lack of micro potential. True in the battle you don't have to do much with them, but positioning widow mines involves some fairly unintuitive strategy, and it's fairly difficult to control your army such that it won't get murdered by your own mines.
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i know it is about me, i said it is on lower level but if you were watching TLO against HeroMarine then you saw widow mines in one hit (six of them) kille 24 supply of TLO... There is no unit that could do that and with time to make and especially price, they are ust too good and can (and are) make a difference...
i would be better if i could practice more, of course, i was diamond when i had no jopb for 5 months but now i can play for 5-10 hours per week but when there is some tournament as WCS, DH, HSC or GSL, then i will spend my time to watch a game, not to play it. So, biggest problem is in me but i can see that terrans have no reason to split their army as before when mines can do a "job for them".
It would be great to see precentage of 2 base all ins wins in PvZ so we could make a conclusion about PvZ. Only numbers I can see now are race numbers in tournaments - mostly protoss, hardly any zergs
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A pack of high templars, a couple infestors, or a pack of banelings can also have an absolutely devastating effect in a flash. Terrans still have every reason to split their army, which is why high level Terrans always do – in fact, before widow mines they only had to split to avoid baneling splash, but now they also split to prevent a few lings closing with their army and then destroying them with the mine's splash.
TLO vs HeroMarine was a sad match to watch, because TLO is a better player than that, but he did not give a good performance. Post-patch, he was hoping that widow mine pushes would no longer be so dominant and he wouldn't have to go heavy ling/bling/muta. I don't know which game you're referring to, but in at least one game he actually tried to skip spire entirely and go straight to hive. He was trying to hold bio+mine with speedlings and slow banelings, without muta support, which any top zerg can tell you is not a recipe for success.
Race numbers in tournaments aren't very useful because they are both subject to a lot of variance, and totally inconclusive as to where the problem is. If there's a lot of Protoss, is it because PvZ is imbalanced? Or because TvP is imbalanced? Or because a couple top Terrans and top Zergs were off their game in the Ro32? Or because all the good Terrans and Zergs got matched against each other in the brackets while the Protoss all rolled easy Terrans and Zergs?
I don't know why you put "job for them" in quotation marks. Is that a quote from someone?
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Russian Federation36 Posts
so you're saying tvz is pretty balanced, when zerg needs to constantly produce units from all larva and all money he gets from 4 bases (if 3 he will loose) without a chance to go up to hive tech, when terran has an endless rally to the zergs base with ability to drop and needs only to build armory to gain superior advantage in cost efficienty. ok, as you say, this matchup is balanced
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I never said that. I only said that the races performed equally well in the WCS. That doesn't say anything about other levels of play, match-ups, etc. IUf anyone would have the suitable data for this I'd be happy to analyse it.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On November 16 2013 19:48 sickless wrote:
so you're saying tvz is pretty balanced, when zerg needs to constantly produce units from all larva and all money he gets from 4 bases (if 3 he will loose) without a chance to go up to hive tech, when terran has an endless rally to the zergs base with ability to drop and needs only to build armory to gain superior advantage in cost efficienty. ok, as you say, this matchup is balanced
You forgot the part where is zerg actually smashes the rally push, terran is suddenly in a trouble. Because you know, terran can't get 40 marines in 1 round.
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Russian Federation36 Posts
On November 16 2013 20:08 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 19:48 sickless wrote:
so you're saying tvz is pretty balanced, when zerg needs to constantly produce units from all larva and all money he gets from 4 bases (if 3 he will loose) without a chance to go up to hive tech, when terran has an endless rally to the zergs base with ability to drop and needs only to build armory to gain superior advantage in cost efficienty. ok, as you say, this matchup is balanced You forgot the part where is zerg actually smashes the rally push, terran is suddenly in a trouble. Because you know, terran can't get 40 marines in 1 round.
u can produce at least 20 marines with 4 base economy, the deficit of marines to zerglings is evened by splash damage of widow mines
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On November 16 2013 19:48 sickless wrote:
so you're saying tvz is pretty balanced, when zerg needs to constantly produce units from all larva and all money he gets from 4 bases (if 3 he will loose) without a chance to go up to hive tech, when terran has an endless rally to the zergs base with ability to drop and needs only to build armory to gain superior advantage in cost efficienty. ok, as you say, this matchup is balanced
Because terran do not use all his production facilities and do not use all the money he gets from 3 bases (if he can't take a fourth he will lose)? and if he lets zerg breath 3 sec he then has to run from bases to bases to defend against mutas?
Get real, it is as hard for zerg as it is for terran, and the WM nerf is not helping (even though I think it's good for diversity)
edit : 20 marines at a time? get real man, or play terran at least for a few games....
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On November 16 2013 22:59 VieuxSinge wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2013 19:48 sickless wrote:
so you're saying tvz is pretty balanced, when zerg needs to constantly produce units from all larva and all money he gets from 4 bases (if 3 he will loose) without a chance to go up to hive tech, when terran has an endless rally to the zergs base with ability to drop and needs only to build armory to gain superior advantage in cost efficienty. ok, as you say, this matchup is balanced Because terran do not use all his production facilities and do not use all the money he gets from 3 bases (if he can't take a fourth he will lose)? and if he lets zerg breath 3 sec he then has to run from bases to bases to defend against mutas? Get real, it is as hard for zerg as it is for terran, and the WM nerf is not helping (even though I think it's good for diversity) edit : 20 marines at a time? get real man, or play terran at least for a few games....
define "at a time"...
Since Terran and Zerg production cycles are radically different through injects (and the whole larva vs queue mechanic in general) "at a time" means very different things for Terran and Zerg.
Anyhow:
3base Terran produces (build/time dependend) 8-12 Marines per cycle which is 25seconds (with perfect macro).
Which means 19.2-28.8 marines per minute.
Similar calculations give you 2.9 Medivacs and 3 - 4.5mines per minute.
That's 28.1 - 40.7 supply.
3-4base Zerg produces (build dependend) 30-50larva per minute (with perfect macro) which can be spent (incomedependend) on Units/Workers(Buildings; significant in the case of Static D)/Overlords.
If you spend it on pure ling/bling that's 30-50supply.
+ Show Spoiler +mutas inflate it a little in terms of supply, but also cost more than you earn, so you can not spend all your larva if you invest heavily in mutas; e.g. 10mutas cost 1000/1000, so you are left with 40larva and ~600-800minerals assuming constant spending of all your income. So only 12to16*2=24to32 zerglings can be built then. So a supply of 32to36.
Of course all of that is pretty vague since it depends on how the game is being played. But in general those numbers just correspond very well, since both races do reach such setups very regularily.
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I have some Ideas affecting Protoss and Terran, those Ideas are interdependent.
Why did I have those Ideas ? Its the protoss deathball-mechanic: "defending until you get your perfect unit composition and destroy your enemy with one big push" - if Protoss already has his deathball, then the effort to win battles are unequally distributed. So first, how to bring more tactical aspects in using a Protoss deathball ?
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Nerf Colossi - decrease movement speed.
I think by decreasing movement speed, a Protoss player would consider how he positioning his colossi to keep them out of any danger because if you have to retread, your Colossi would always run behind your army. Maybe if Colossi are slower, in a "sieging - scenario" they wouldn't attack the whole time as well, only if they are in a save position. Comparable to tanks in early game - you don't want to loose them.
Side effect:
Maybe we would see some "Colossi into Warpprism" micro, just like Reaver/Shuttle - gameplay in broodwar.
2.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nerf Marauder - increase building time.
I think Marauders are too strong in early game. They defeat Stalkers/Roaches and tank Banelings easily. They Shoudln't be used like units you can throw away as terran. By increasing the building Time I think it will be harder for Terrans to push vs Protoss in early game. Furthermore, Reapers are pretty weak units, but you don't throw them away because time is money and they took a lot of time to build. I hope this effect would apply to marauders as well.
Side effect:
Terrans would make more use of bunkers in early game to keep marauders and marines (cause you wont have enough marauders to tank everything anymore) alive.
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Other things I think should be nerfed/changed but I don't have any idea yet:
Void Rays
- there are only 2 out of 7 airunits countering Void Rays (Terran Air is doomed)
- Protoss has only 1 unit countering Void Rays but Void Rays (I think Archons are way too expensive to consider them as counter)
- Terran has only 1 unit countering Void Rays
- Zerg has 2 units countering Void Rays
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On November 19 2013 06:40 Crackpot wrote:
I have some Ideas affecting Protoss and Terran, those Ideas are interdependent.
Why did I have those Ideas ? Its the protoss deathball-mechanic: "defending until you get your perfect unit composition and destroy your enemy with one big push" - if Protoss already has his deathball, then the effort to win battles are unequally distributed. So first, how to bring more tactical aspects in using a Protoss deathball ?
1.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nerf Colossi - decrease movement speed.
I think by decreasing movement speed, a Protoss player would consider how he positioning his colossi to keep them out of any danger because if you have to retread, your Colossi would always run behind your army. Maybe if Colossi are slower, in a "sieging - scenario" they wouldn't attack the whole time as well, only if they are in a save position. Comparable to tanks in early game - you don't want to loose them.
Side effect:
Maybe we would see some "Colossi into Warpprism" micro, just like Reaver/Shuttle - gameplay in broodwar.
2.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nerf Marauder - increase building time.
I think Marauders are too strong in early game. They defeat Stalkers/Roaches and tank Banelings easily. They Shoudln't be used like units you can throw away as terran. By increasing the building Time I think it will be harder for Terrans to push vs Protoss in early game. Furthermore, Reapers are pretty weak units, but you don't throw them away because time is money and they took a lot of time to build. I hope this effect would apply to marauders as well.
Side effect:
Terrans would make more use of bunkers in early game to keep marauders and marines (cause you wont have enough marauders to tank everything anymore) alive.
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Other things I think should be nerfed/changed but I don't have any idea yet:
Void Rays
- there are only 2 out of 7 airunits countering Void Rays (Terran Air is doomed)
- Protoss has only 1 unit countering Void Rays but Void Rays (I think Archons are way too expensive to consider them as counter)
- Terran has only 1 unit countering Void Rays
- Zerg has 2 units countering Void Rays
I'd ask what you are smoking but I think your name says it all LOL. None of these changes actually effect High Level / Top Tier Games in a good way. By increasing the building Time I think it will be harder for Terrans to push vs Protoss in early game. Have you played TvP? Mamma core kills aggression in the early game. This would just make protoss late game that much more powerful and hard to stop as a core unit would take longer to build Protoss can snowball otu of control that much easier....
Nerfing Colo Speed wouldn't make that much of a difference other than stopping some 3 Colo pushes and things of that nature in lower tier games....
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FYI after a week of play with the latest patch, there are now TWICE as many Protoss players in GM leagues across each server as there are Terrans: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race
I really think TvP is a completely broken match-up nowadays. Protoss has always been quite strong in the late game, but they now have innumerable all-ins in the early game that are extremely strong, even when scouted, and quite easy to execute. In addition, the mothership core provides such an extreme defensive advantage that there aren't many openings for Terrans early-game. Given the state of the game, I will never, ever, ever understand why Blizzard thought that oracle play needed a buff.
The solution, in my opinion, would be to retract the unnecessary oracle buff, and possibly nerf the starting energy of the mothership core. Admittedly, I'm not sure how this would affect other match-ups, but the Protoss defensive advantage in TvP is quite ridiculous. The fact that the new HOTS units for Terrans (mines and hellbats) have been nerfed into near-uselessness in the match-up doesn't help much either, because some of our only anti-economy early game options revolved around dropping those units in mineral lines.
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On November 19 2013 10:43 Courthead wrote:FYI after a week of play with the latest patch, there are now TWICE as many Protoss players in GM leagues across each server as there are Terrans: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/raceI really think TvP is a completely broken match-up nowadays. Protoss has always been quite strong in the late game, but they now have innumerable all-ins in the early game that are extremely strong, even when scouted, and quite easy to execute. In addition, the mothership core provides such an extreme defensive advantage that there aren't many openings for Terrans early-game. Given the state of the game, I will never, ever, ever understand why Blizzard thought that oracle play needed a buff. The solution, in my opinion, would be to retract the unnecessary oracle buff, and possibly nerf the starting energy of the mothership core. Admittedly, I'm not sure how this would affect other match-ups, but the Protoss defensive advantage in TvP is quite ridiculous. The fact that the new HOTS units for Terrans (mines and hellbats) have been nerfed into near-uselessness in the match-up doesn't help much either, because some of our only anti-economy early game options revolved around dropping those units in mineral lines.
Can we stop saying that mines are useless? Theres absolutely zero evidence for that.
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On November 19 2013 10:43 Courthead wrote:FYI after a week of play with the latest patch, there are now TWICE as many Protoss players in GM leagues across each server as there are Terrans: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/raceI really think TvP is a completely broken match-up nowadays. Protoss has always been quite strong in the late game, but they now have innumerable all-ins in the early game that are extremely strong, even when scouted, and quite easy to execute. In addition, the mothership core provides such an extreme defensive advantage that there aren't many openings for Terrans early-game. Given the state of the game, I will never, ever, ever understand why Blizzard thought that oracle play needed a buff. The solution, in my opinion, would be to retract the unnecessary oracle buff, and possibly nerf the starting energy of the mothership core. Admittedly, I'm not sure how this would affect other match-ups, but the Protoss defensive advantage in TvP is quite ridiculous. The fact that the new HOTS units for Terrans (mines and hellbats) have been nerfed into near-uselessness in the match-up doesn't help much either, because some of our only anti-economy early game options revolved around dropping those units in mineral lines.
Sorry, but bo1s with more than likely completely unknown opponents(barcodes) are not exactly a metric for balance. In fact, this is the first time I recall in SC2 history where anyone even attempted using these statistics.
Also, how does the effectiveness of the oracles harass make Protoss somehow safer?
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That's not the same as killing a Terran outright. That's starving him out............
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EPT
