On October 17 2013 06:54 Qwyn wrote: I recall that players like MorroW were/are constructing super armies in TvP, is this not a thing anymore? sacking SCVs and getting mass orbital/and building marauder/ghost/viking only and focusing on muscling through multiple protoss warp-ins.
Of course I can only remember, it's probably rare to get to such a position as a Terran. I feel for you bros T_T.
Why don't we see more players go up to 90 or so drones? I recall seeing Suppy and crew analyze a game with Roro (Roro vs. Sorry? - HERE, at 1:23) where he went up to 90 (My ideal number would be 22+22+22+16 = 82) drones which allowed him to constantly maintain 200/200 without the massive decrease of mineral income most zergs have in the lategame (in particular referencing DRG vs. Innovation, where he had 2000 gas banked every game but no minerals, and was hovering at 150-160 supply for most of the game). Roro didn't even micro and just overwhelmed his opponent
It seems like a mineral focus would be so much stronger and being able to use that buffer and not float so much gas such a boon. I would just LOVE to see mass hatch style (with that amount of drones you can support 7 hatches!) style play and going toe to toe with the Terran. At least I've been playing with that as my late game aim and it's very entertaining.
Purposefully playing towards lategame TvP became rarer as Protoss got the Tempest and learnt to master some techniques (Zealots/DTs Prism harass, multi-layer Templar defence, Cannons outposts, hiding Templars on the map, Tempests transitions, etc.) to establish their dominance in this phase; as a result, the Terran generally gets killed before reaching mass Ghosts/Vikings, or is left slowly starving while Protoss slowly destroys his army.
Going up to 85-90 drones is common in ZvT.
Hmm, I guess I just don't see a mineral focus, then ^^. Just seems like a lot of players have a focus on getting a large muta ball and taking all their gas geysers, - whereas a style like DRG's but with 10 more drones (he only puts 6 on his 4th! -still takes his geysers which leads to such a gas/mineral imbalance) would give him so much more staying power. This is such a common imbalance, too! An overwhelming swarm style like Roro's with the micro potential of DRG seems like such a power play, any thoughts on why it's not seen?
If you have seen mass lair tech behind 4 base mineral saturation/6 geyser gas without a heavy, heavy muta focus (just enough to stop drops/snipe CCs - 20 I think? That still allows you to get 156 lings out on the field) that is centered around a ling/bane power play, do you have any references to recent games? I mean you don't have to but I think it's a bit under-explored. It does allow you to support 7 hatch ling production which is so, so powerful for floods in the midgame where you would otherwise not have enough larva.
You also are more easily able to get a 14:00/15:00 hive without fear of a mineral/gas imbalance and can sneak in those 3/3 upgrades.
I'm super afraid of TvP, lol, seems ridiculous and I have no useful suggestions to make regarding balance. Props to you Terran bros.
On October 17 2013 06:54 Qwyn wrote: I recall that players like MorroW were/are constructing super armies in TvP, is this not a thing anymore? sacking SCVs and getting mass orbital/and building marauder/ghost/viking only and focusing on muscling through multiple protoss warp-ins.
Of course I can only remember, it's probably rare to get to such a position as a Terran. I feel for you bros T_T.
Why don't we see more players go up to 90 or so drones? I recall seeing Suppy and crew analyze a game with Roro (Roro vs. Sorry? - HERE, at 1:23) where he went up to 90 (My ideal number would be 22+22+22+16 = 82) drones which allowed him to constantly maintain 200/200 without the massive decrease of mineral income most zergs have in the lategame (in particular referencing DRG vs. Innovation, where he had 2000 gas banked every game but no minerals, and was hovering at 150-160 supply for most of the game). Roro didn't even micro and just overwhelmed his opponent
It seems like a mineral focus would be so much stronger and being able to use that buffer and not float so much gas such a boon. I would just LOVE to see mass hatch style (with that amount of drones you can support 7 hatches!) style play and going toe to toe with the Terran. At least I've been playing with that as my late game aim and it's very entertaining.
Purposefully playing towards lategame TvP became rarer as Protoss got the Tempest and learnt to master some techniques (Zealots/DTs Prism harass, multi-layer Templar defence, Cannons outposts, hiding Templars on the map, Tempests transitions, etc.) to establish their dominance in this phase; as a result, the Terran generally gets killed before reaching mass Ghosts/Vikings, or is left slowly starving while Protoss slowly destroys his army.
Going up to 85-90 drones is common in ZvT.
Hmm, I guess I just don't see a mineral focus, then ^^. Just seems like a lot of players have a focus on getting a large muta ball and taking all their gas geysers, - whereas a style like DRG's but with 10 more drones (he only puts 6 on his 4th! -still takes his geysers which leads to such a gas/mineral imbalance) would give him so much more staying power. This is such a common imbalance, too! An overwhelming swarm style like Roro's with the micro potential of DRG seems like such a power play, any thoughts on why it's not seen?
If you have seen mass lair tech behind 4 base mineral saturation/6 geyser gas without a heavy, heavy muta focus (just enough to stop drops/snipe CCs - 20 I think? That still allows you to get 156 lings out on the field) that is centered around a ling/bane power play, do you have any references to recent games? I mean you don't have to but I think it's a bit under-explored. It does allow you to support 7 hatch ling production which is so, so powerful for floods in the midgame where you would otherwise not have enough larva.
You also are more easily able to get a 14:00/15:00 hive without fear of a mineral/gas imbalance and can sneak in those 3/3 upgrades.
I'm super afraid of TvP, lol, seems ridiculous and I have no useful suggestions to make regarding balance. Props to you Terran bros.
In my knowledge mass mutas (~30) is now the rule, I don't remember any super ling-heavy style; it would probably strain too much the Zerg player mechanically while being less efficient than huge flocks of mutas (which can kill lots of things "freely," unlike Zerglings which are more "wasteful" as a unit). The minerals/gas imbalance in TvZ generally comes from the constant trades (lings/banes die, mutas survive, and you cannot make more mutas below a certain amount of ground units) and/or drops slowly crippling Zerg's economy.
On October 17 2013 06:54 Qwyn wrote: I recall that players like MorroW were/are constructing super armies in TvP, is this not a thing anymore? sacking SCVs and getting mass orbital/and building marauder/ghost/viking only and focusing on muscling through multiple protoss warp-ins.
Of course I can only remember, it's probably rare to get to such a position as a Terran. I feel for you bros T_T.
Why don't we see more players go up to 90 or so drones? I recall seeing Suppy and crew analyze a game with Roro (Roro vs. Sorry? - HERE, at 1:23) where he went up to 90 (My ideal number would be 22+22+22+16 = 82) drones which allowed him to constantly maintain 200/200 without the massive decrease of mineral income most zergs have in the lategame (in particular referencing DRG vs. Innovation, where he had 2000 gas banked every game but no minerals, and was hovering at 150-160 supply for most of the game). Roro didn't even micro and just overwhelmed his opponent
It seems like a mineral focus would be so much stronger and being able to use that buffer and not float so much gas such a boon. I would just LOVE to see mass hatch style (with that amount of drones you can support 7 hatches!) style play and going toe to toe with the Terran. At least I've been playing with that as my late game aim and it's very entertaining.
Purposefully playing towards lategame TvP became rarer as Protoss got the Tempest and learnt to master some techniques (Zealots/DTs Prism harass, multi-layer Templar defence, Cannons outposts, hiding Templars on the map, Tempests transitions, etc.) to establish their dominance in this phase; as a result, the Terran generally gets killed before reaching mass Ghosts/Vikings, or is left slowly starving while Protoss slowly destroys his army.
Going up to 85-90 drones is common in ZvT.
Hmm, I guess I just don't see a mineral focus, then ^^. Just seems like a lot of players have a focus on getting a large muta ball and taking all their gas geysers, - whereas a style like DRG's but with 10 more drones (he only puts 6 on his 4th! -still takes his geysers which leads to such a gas/mineral imbalance) would give him so much more staying power. This is such a common imbalance, too! An overwhelming swarm style like Roro's with the micro potential of DRG seems like such a power play, any thoughts on why it's not seen?
If you have seen mass lair tech behind 4 base mineral saturation/6 geyser gas without a heavy, heavy muta focus (just enough to stop drops/snipe CCs - 20 I think? That still allows you to get 156 lings out on the field) that is centered around a ling/bane power play, do you have any references to recent games? I mean you don't have to but I think it's a bit under-explored. It does allow you to support 7 hatch ling production which is so, so powerful for floods in the midgame where you would otherwise not have enough larva.
You also are more easily able to get a 14:00/15:00 hive without fear of a mineral/gas imbalance and can sneak in those 3/3 upgrades.
I'm super afraid of TvP, lol, seems ridiculous and I have no useful suggestions to make regarding balance. Props to you Terran bros.
In my knowledge mass mutas (~30) is now the rule, I don't remember any super ling-heavy style; it would probably strain too much the Zerg player mechanically while being less efficient than huge flocks of mutas (which can kill lots of things "freely," unlike Zerglings which are more "wasteful" as a unit). The minerals/gas imbalance in TvZ generally comes from the constant trades (lings/banes die, mutas survive, and you cannot make more mutas below a certain amount of ground units) and/or drops slowly crippling Zerg's economy.
Disappointing, just anything to see that buffer bumped up a bit would be nice. I'll keep exploring and having fun on my own, though ^^.
Seems like within the restraints of the same set of units there would be alternative styles of use/play. Seeing Life style aggression at a one minute later stage in the game off of a power play might take a bit more skill to be sure, but it's "oh-so satisfying." Is a good way to develop micro skills on ladder ^^.
--
Just proposing a look at how Zergs manage their economy rather than a balance change ^^ - goal of keeping that muta flock alive is important (30~ is the goal , keke) but past that point it's a constant reflood of banelings and what I'm seeing is a buffer point at around 150 supply. Instead of collecting a bank of 2000+ tied up gas which can't really be used (holding it until the end of the game!) just proposing questions - why take those gas when the real restraint in the later game is minerals? with one more inject round and clean drone management you can saturate a 4th and support two more hatcheries. You get the muta flock up and then focus on maintaining your ling/bane buffer ("below a certain point you can't make mutas because you need your ground units").
Obviously this is time dependent, in the late/late game base count is reduced ^^. Terran players have their eyes on a 3 base infrastructure parade push, just looking at Zerg econ management ^^.
Thanks for your responses they're authoritative and insightful.
On October 17 2013 06:22 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
Individually
Eh, sorry that video is blocked where I live, can you explain in words how to click on an obs that hides "in" a collossus? :-/
On October 17 2013 06:22 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
Eh, sorry that video is blocked where I live, can you explain in words how to click on an obs that hides "in" a collossus? :-/
It's a reference to a BW video where BoxeR used medics to "optic flare" the observer stack of a Protoss going carrier (they were all stacked up and hidden underneath carrier sprites and following them much like an observer would follow collosi).
What he's saying is you just do it. The observers will lag behind collosi during movement and you just have to muscle up the micro to snipe them down ^^. Difficult? Yes. Rawwrr!
On October 17 2013 07:59 Qwyn wrote: [ Difficult? Yes. Rawwrr!
Yes, this is a common problem with only one solution.
You just need to go MMM (marine, marauder, micro) against it!
I'm just restating what he displayed and was implying! I think that the observer snipe is only one of the huge problem areas of TvP for Terran players and I don't even know where to start ^^.
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
Its mostly because when two armies are posturing. Whether HTs get emp'd or terran bio got time warp plus storm are usually the deciding factor of who wins in that engagement.
The rest of the dps trading are all about getting the right amount of units and positioning. But the engagement heavily swing in one side if nice storm or nice emp are landed.
In this sense, toss not having a reliable way to deal with cloak ghost just don't seem right for me.
I don't get this argument. Can you give me a sizeable number of games where this was actually a problem (not the cloaked ghosts hitting something, but the Protoss actually losing because of it - otherwise it's the same as a DT taking a swing). I only remember games where it didn't really matter, like Hack versus Naniwa on Whirlwind.
Considering that P does have Oracles that are immune to the same problem (revelation cannot be sniped away), storm ignores cloak and ghosts have limited energy so retreating is a viable tactic, I don't see why we are talking about this.
It sounds like the juxtaposition between terrans having mules and P having chrono. One gets probes faster, the other gets an additional better harvester.
The thing is, nowadays they rarely get to that stage because Terran either kill the toss before the toss third started mining (scv pull usually) or just the toss roll over terran with the super fast third economy.
But there were quite a few in WoL, in fact I thought this topic was brought up before. I do recall several GSL games where we saw cloak ghosts sniping colossus even after the terran bio were eliminated and there were some left over army for toss and toss just doesn't have any way to deal with it since you need the robo to be producing colossus. I think one had gumiho? and another had creator? damn the memories from year ago lol
And yes, I did state that retreating storm is one way to retreat but most often it comes with a price of losing several HTs and/or archons because they lag behind when they retreat and bio is way more mobile. you have nothing to deal with cloak ghost until the obs are out
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
Its mostly because when two armies are posturing. Whether HTs get emp'd or terran bio got time warp plus storm are usually the deciding factor of who wins in that engagement.
The rest of the dps trading are all about getting the right amount of units and positioning. But the engagement heavily swing in one side if nice storm or nice emp are landed.
In this sense, toss not having a reliable way to deal with cloak ghost just don't seem right for me.
I don't get this argument. Can you give me a sizeable number of games where this was actually a problem (not the cloaked ghosts hitting something, but the Protoss actually losing because of it - otherwise it's the same as a DT taking a swing). I only remember games where it didn't really matter, like Hack versus Naniwa on Whirlwind.
Considering that P does have Oracles that are immune to the same problem (revelation cannot be sniped away), storm ignores cloak and ghosts have limited energy so retreating is a viable tactic, I don't see why we are talking about this.
It sounds like the juxtaposition between terrans having mules and P having chrono. One gets probes faster, the other gets an additional better harvester.
The thing is, nowadays they rarely get to that stage because Terran either kill the toss before the toss third started mining (scv pull usually) or just the toss roll over terran with the super fast third economy.
But there were quite a few in WoL, in fact I thought this topic was brought up before. I do recall several GSL games where we saw cloak ghosts sniping colossus even after the terran bio were eliminated and there were some left over army for toss and toss just doesn't have any way to deal with it since you need the robo to be producing colossus. I think one had gumiho? and another had creator? damn the memories from year ago lol
And yes, I did state that retreating storm is one way to retreat but most often it comes with a price of losing several HTs and/or archons because they lag behind when they retreat and bio is way more mobile. you have nothing to deal with cloak ghost until the obs are out
I don't quite understand the problem. The dynamic seems like it's a standard pendulum of counters. Protoss starts out the game with stronger units usually, because gateway units generally beat unupgraded marines. Then Terran gets some upgrades and medivacs, and he has the advantage so Protoss stays home and plays defensive. Protoss then has to get either HT or colossi to gain the advantage back, which he has until Terran has ghosts or vikings, respectively. Then the Protoss gets HT or colossi, whichever he didn't get before; and Terran has to respond by getting whichever counter he didn't get before. At this stage Terran should have an advantage. Protoss's next step is to get Tempests, giving him the advantage again. And it's not really clear what Terran's next step is after that, since so few games have been played to that point.
But what about that is a problem? Pendulum of counters is a pretty standard RTS design, and it works pretty well.
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
Its mostly because when two armies are posturing. Whether HTs get emp'd or terran bio got time warp plus storm are usually the deciding factor of who wins in that engagement.
The rest of the dps trading are all about getting the right amount of units and positioning. But the engagement heavily swing in one side if nice storm or nice emp are landed.
In this sense, toss not having a reliable way to deal with cloak ghost just don't seem right for me.
I don't get this argument. Can you give me a sizeable number of games where this was actually a problem (not the cloaked ghosts hitting something, but the Protoss actually losing because of it - otherwise it's the same as a DT taking a swing). I only remember games where it didn't really matter, like Hack versus Naniwa on Whirlwind.
Considering that P does have Oracles that are immune to the same problem (revelation cannot be sniped away), storm ignores cloak and ghosts have limited energy so retreating is a viable tactic, I don't see why we are talking about this.
It sounds like the juxtaposition between terrans having mules and P having chrono. One gets probes faster, the other gets an additional better harvester.
The thing is, nowadays they rarely get to that stage because Terran either kill the toss before the toss third started mining (scv pull usually) or just the toss roll over terran with the super fast third economy.
But there were quite a few in WoL, in fact I thought this topic was brought up before. I do recall several GSL games where we saw cloak ghosts sniping colossus even after the terran bio were eliminated and there were some left over army for toss and toss just doesn't have any way to deal with it since you need the robo to be producing colossus. I think one had gumiho? and another had creator? damn the memories from year ago lol
And yes, I did state that retreating storm is one way to retreat but most often it comes with a price of losing several HTs and/or archons because they lag behind when they retreat and bio is way more mobile. you have nothing to deal with cloak ghost until the obs are out
I don't quite understand the problem. The dynamic seems like it's a standard pendulum of counters. Protoss starts out the game with stronger units usually, because gateway units generally beat unupgraded marines. Then Terran gets some upgrades and medivacs, and he has the advantage so Protoss stays home and plays defensive. Protoss then has to get either HT or colossi to gain the advantage back, which he has until Terran has ghosts or vikings, respectively. Then the Protoss gets HT or colossi, whichever he didn't get before; and Terran has to respond by getting whichever counter he didn't get before. At this stage Terran should have an advantage. Protoss's next step is to get Tempests, giving him the advantage again. And it's not really clear what Terran's next step is after that, since so few games have been played to that point.
But what about that is a problem? Pendulum of counters is a pretty standard RTS design, and it works pretty well.
because there is no counter play for the toss other than building more obs.
my thought process is: HT and Ghost micro are almost even in skill (hts can feedback a ghost to stop it using emp/cloak while ghost can snipe and emp etc) and just requires the player to have a better control, this observer getting one shot problem do make or break this dedicate balance. And the importance of landing a storm is just as important as landing an emp. Toss only relies on its splash to win an engagement, Terran relies on taking out and reducing the amount of the splash.
I see people keep bringing up tempest, but how is it suppose to really help to protect the obs when it gets one shot'd? If I were to take your tempest example further, ghost and HTs are still the key units in late game situation, storm is incredibly important to deal with vikings clump. while interaction like pdds and tempest shot is more one sided and there really don't have much counter play for the Toss again, this is a lot less important is much less compared to HTs and Ghosts because they are what make or break every engagements
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
Its mostly because when two armies are posturing. Whether HTs get emp'd or terran bio got time warp plus storm are usually the deciding factor of who wins in that engagement.
The rest of the dps trading are all about getting the right amount of units and positioning. But the engagement heavily swing in one side if nice storm or nice emp are landed.
In this sense, toss not having a reliable way to deal with cloak ghost just don't seem right for me.
I don't get this argument. Can you give me a sizeable number of games where this was actually a problem (not the cloaked ghosts hitting something, but the Protoss actually losing because of it - otherwise it's the same as a DT taking a swing). I only remember games where it didn't really matter, like Hack versus Naniwa on Whirlwind.
Considering that P does have Oracles that are immune to the same problem (revelation cannot be sniped away), storm ignores cloak and ghosts have limited energy so retreating is a viable tactic, I don't see why we are talking about this.
It sounds like the juxtaposition between terrans having mules and P having chrono. One gets probes faster, the other gets an additional better harvester.
The thing is, nowadays they rarely get to that stage because Terran either kill the toss before the toss third started mining (scv pull usually) or just the toss roll over terran with the super fast third economy.
But there were quite a few in WoL, in fact I thought this topic was brought up before. I do recall several GSL games where we saw cloak ghosts sniping colossus even after the terran bio were eliminated and there were some left over army for toss and toss just doesn't have any way to deal with it since you need the robo to be producing colossus. I think one had gumiho? and another had creator? damn the memories from year ago lol
And yes, I did state that retreating storm is one way to retreat but most often it comes with a price of losing several HTs and/or archons because they lag behind when they retreat and bio is way more mobile. you have nothing to deal with cloak ghost until the obs are out
I don't quite understand the problem. The dynamic seems like it's a standard pendulum of counters. Protoss starts out the game with stronger units usually, because gateway units generally beat unupgraded marines. Then Terran gets some upgrades and medivacs, and he has the advantage so Protoss stays home and plays defensive. Protoss then has to get either HT or colossi to gain the advantage back, which he has until Terran has ghosts or vikings, respectively. Then the Protoss gets HT or colossi, whichever he didn't get before; and Terran has to respond by getting whichever counter he didn't get before. At this stage Terran should have an advantage. Protoss's next step is to get Tempests, giving him the advantage again. And it's not really clear what Terran's next step is after that, since so few games have been played to that point.
But what about that is a problem? Pendulum of counters is a pretty standard RTS design, and it works pretty well.
because there is no counter play for the toss other than building more obs.
my thought process is: HT and Ghost micro are almost even in skill (hts can feedback a ghost to stop it using emp/cloak while ghost can snipe and emp etc) and just requires the player to have a better control, this observer getting one shot problem do make or break this dedicate balance. And the importance of landing a storm is just as important as landing an emp. Toss only relies on its splash to win an engagement, Terran relies on taking out and reducing the amount of the splash.
I see people keep bringing up tempest, but how is it suppose to really help to protect the obs when it gets one shot'd? If I were to take your tempest example further, ghost and HTs are still the key units in late game situation, storm is incredibly important to deal with vikings clump. while interaction like pdds and tempest shot is more one sided and there really don't have much counter play for the Toss again, this is a lot less important is much less compared to HTs and Ghosts because they are what make or break every engagements
TheDwf has offered plenty of other counter-plays besides just building more observers. Oracle, cannon waypoints, storm retreat if it gets sniped, keep the observer out of range of the vikings, etc. You can even do the trick where you keep one observer about half a screen behind your army, and then when they scan your other observer and move in with cloak ghosts, you can bring in the second one and kill all the vulnerable ghosts.
HT and ghost micro is fairly even, but the risk/reward is not. The ghosts are basically there to negate the HT's (and to a lesser extent sentries, but they're less important by this stage usually). So if two or three HT's still get to storm, the Terran probably loses the fight. So if you have 10 HT's and I have 10 ghosts, I still need to take out basically every HT or my army will get destroyed (maybe 1 or 2 can stay alive if I dodge the storms well). Storms and EMPs are not of equal importance, because storm will actually kill my army, while EMP will only kinda weaken most of your army; it's just the spell-casters that it fully negates. So ghosts have cloak, which enables them to get the advantage in the HT vs. ghost micro. Because if my ghost micro is jut kinda even with your HT micro I lose the fight in a landslide.
Tempests aren't there to negate the obs snipe, although they do that pretty well, too. They're there to snipe off units in the Terran army, particularly ghosts and vikings. Of course the Protoss needs vision for that, so you can send out an obs and it might get sniped, but before it does you probably get to take out at least a viking or medivac, so you come out ahead, and if you really don't want to trade the obs you can get an oracle and use revelation. Then the Terran is forced to dash forward and engage, but you still have a colossus/HT/archon army which is much more powerful in a defensive position than an offensive one. So you throw down defensive storms, Terran can't approach, but he'll keep dying if he doesn't. Since you're in a defensive posture, you can easily keep your army within range of some cannons so obs snipe won't do so much anyway.
Tl;dr: 1. You have options besides building a million obs. 2. Ghosts have to defeat HTs convincingly, or else Terran loses the battle convincingly. Cloak helps them do that. 3. Tempests enable you force the Terran to engage. Storm is better defensively than offensively. Therefore Tempests make your storms much, much better.
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
Its mostly because when two armies are posturing. Whether HTs get emp'd or terran bio got time warp plus storm are usually the deciding factor of who wins in that engagement.
The rest of the dps trading are all about getting the right amount of units and positioning. But the engagement heavily swing in one side if nice storm or nice emp are landed.
In this sense, toss not having a reliable way to deal with cloak ghost just don't seem right for me.
I don't get this argument. Can you give me a sizeable number of games where this was actually a problem (not the cloaked ghosts hitting something, but the Protoss actually losing because of it - otherwise it's the same as a DT taking a swing). I only remember games where it didn't really matter, like Hack versus Naniwa on Whirlwind.
Considering that P does have Oracles that are immune to the same problem (revelation cannot be sniped away), storm ignores cloak and ghosts have limited energy so retreating is a viable tactic, I don't see why we are talking about this.
It sounds like the juxtaposition between terrans having mules and P having chrono. One gets probes faster, the other gets an additional better harvester.
The thing is, nowadays they rarely get to that stage because Terran either kill the toss before the toss third started mining (scv pull usually) or just the toss roll over terran with the super fast third economy.
But there were quite a few in WoL, in fact I thought this topic was brought up before. I do recall several GSL games where we saw cloak ghosts sniping colossus even after the terran bio were eliminated and there were some left over army for toss and toss just doesn't have any way to deal with it since you need the robo to be producing colossus. I think one had gumiho? and another had creator? damn the memories from year ago lol
And yes, I did state that retreating storm is one way to retreat but most often it comes with a price of losing several HTs and/or archons because they lag behind when they retreat and bio is way more mobile. you have nothing to deal with cloak ghost until the obs are out
I don't quite understand the problem. The dynamic seems like it's a standard pendulum of counters. Protoss starts out the game with stronger units usually, because gateway units generally beat unupgraded marines. Then Terran gets some upgrades and medivacs, and he has the advantage so Protoss stays home and plays defensive. Protoss then has to get either HT or colossi to gain the advantage back, which he has until Terran has ghosts or vikings, respectively. Then the Protoss gets HT or colossi, whichever he didn't get before; and Terran has to respond by getting whichever counter he didn't get before. At this stage Terran should have an advantage. Protoss's next step is to get Tempests, giving him the advantage again. And it's not really clear what Terran's next step is after that, since so few games have been played to that point.
But what about that is a problem? Pendulum of counters is a pretty standard RTS design, and it works pretty well.
because there is no counter play for the toss other than building more obs.
my thought process is: HT and Ghost micro are almost even in skill (hts can feedback a ghost to stop it using emp/cloak while ghost can snipe and emp etc) and just requires the player to have a better control, this observer getting one shot problem do make or break this dedicate balance. And the importance of landing a storm is just as important as landing an emp. Toss only relies on its splash to win an engagement, Terran relies on taking out and reducing the amount of the splash.
I see people keep bringing up tempest, but how is it suppose to really help to protect the obs when it gets one shot'd? If I were to take your tempest example further, ghost and HTs are still the key units in late game situation, storm is incredibly important to deal with vikings clump. while interaction like pdds and tempest shot is more one sided and there really don't have much counter play for the Toss again, this is a lot less important is much less compared to HTs and Ghosts because they are what make or break every engagements
TheDwf has offered plenty of other counter-plays besides just building more observers. Oracle, cannon waypoints, storm retreat if it gets sniped, keep the observer out of range of the vikings, etc. You can even do the trick where you keep one observer about half a screen behind your army, and then when they scan your other observer and move in with cloak ghosts, you can bring in the second one and kill all the vulnerable ghosts.
HT and ghost micro is fairly even, but the risk/reward is not. The ghosts are basically there to negate the HT's (and to a lesser extent sentries, but they're less important by this stage usually). So if two or three HT's still get to storm, the Terran probably loses the fight. So if you have 10 HT's and I have 10 ghosts, I still need to take out basically every HT or my army will get destroyed (maybe 1 or 2 can stay alive if I dodge the storms well). Storms and EMPs are not of equal importance, because storm will actually kill my army, while EMP will only kinda weaken most of your army; it's just the spell-casters that it fully negates. So ghosts have cloak, which enables them to get the advantage in the HT vs. ghost micro. Because if my ghost micro is jut kinda even with your HT micro I lose the fight in a landslide.
Tempests aren't there to negate the obs snipe, although they do that pretty well, too. They're there to snipe off units in the Terran army, particularly ghosts and vikings. Of course the Protoss needs vision for that, so you can send out an obs and it might get sniped, but before it does you probably get to take out at least a viking or medivac, so you come out ahead, and if you really don't want to trade the obs you can get an oracle and use revelation. Then the Terran is forced to dash forward and engage, but you still have a colossus/HT/archon army which is much more powerful in a defensive position than an offensive one. So you throw down defensive storms, Terran can't approach, but he'll keep dying if he doesn't. Since you're in a defensive posture, you can easily keep your army within range of some cannons so obs snipe won't do so much anyway.
Tl;dr: 1. You have options besides building a million obs. 2. Ghosts have to defeat HTs convincingly, or else Terran loses the battle convincingly. Cloak helps them do that. 3. Tempests enable you force the Terran to engage. Storm is better defensively than offensively. Therefore Tempests make your storms much, much better.
Oracle - still an unreliable way to get detection when obs can get sniped right away, oracle will fall to one shot by vikings as well. cannon waypoints - this one is only possible when you are defending your base and not moving out. In WoL, it was popular for Terran do use nukes as a response. Storm retreat if it gets sniped - this is NOT a counter play, it is only a solution to avoid your whole army getting run over by the bio Keep the observer out of range of the vikings - of cause, you can have it all across on the other side of the screen to bring it back. But it won't be fast enough to pull back once the obs near the army is sniped and cloak ghost moving in. At best, it would just mean terran pull back the ghost and wait for another obs snipe.
Ghosts do defeat HTs evenly with snipe and emp, emp being an anti clump spell as well as a form of splash for terran bio. They are at equal importance because while storm does kill unit, you are going to get healed at a much quicker rate than protoss regenerate energy and shield. and protoss relies on their splash to kill terran bio while terran bio itself is the main dps. you taking out their ability to splash is already at even ground as landing a storm (not to mention you can't dodge emp onto your archons etcetc while you can split bio to migrate storm damage).
revelation doesn't reveal cloaked unit while envision just turn it into another observer basically.
On October 17 2013 05:01 Thieving Magpie wrote: [quote]
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
Its mostly because when two armies are posturing. Whether HTs get emp'd or terran bio got time warp plus storm are usually the deciding factor of who wins in that engagement.
The rest of the dps trading are all about getting the right amount of units and positioning. But the engagement heavily swing in one side if nice storm or nice emp are landed.
In this sense, toss not having a reliable way to deal with cloak ghost just don't seem right for me.
I don't get this argument. Can you give me a sizeable number of games where this was actually a problem (not the cloaked ghosts hitting something, but the Protoss actually losing because of it - otherwise it's the same as a DT taking a swing). I only remember games where it didn't really matter, like Hack versus Naniwa on Whirlwind.
Considering that P does have Oracles that are immune to the same problem (revelation cannot be sniped away), storm ignores cloak and ghosts have limited energy so retreating is a viable tactic, I don't see why we are talking about this.
It sounds like the juxtaposition between terrans having mules and P having chrono. One gets probes faster, the other gets an additional better harvester.
The thing is, nowadays they rarely get to that stage because Terran either kill the toss before the toss third started mining (scv pull usually) or just the toss roll over terran with the super fast third economy.
But there were quite a few in WoL, in fact I thought this topic was brought up before. I do recall several GSL games where we saw cloak ghosts sniping colossus even after the terran bio were eliminated and there were some left over army for toss and toss just doesn't have any way to deal with it since you need the robo to be producing colossus. I think one had gumiho? and another had creator? damn the memories from year ago lol
And yes, I did state that retreating storm is one way to retreat but most often it comes with a price of losing several HTs and/or archons because they lag behind when they retreat and bio is way more mobile. you have nothing to deal with cloak ghost until the obs are out
I don't quite understand the problem. The dynamic seems like it's a standard pendulum of counters. Protoss starts out the game with stronger units usually, because gateway units generally beat unupgraded marines. Then Terran gets some upgrades and medivacs, and he has the advantage so Protoss stays home and plays defensive. Protoss then has to get either HT or colossi to gain the advantage back, which he has until Terran has ghosts or vikings, respectively. Then the Protoss gets HT or colossi, whichever he didn't get before; and Terran has to respond by getting whichever counter he didn't get before. At this stage Terran should have an advantage. Protoss's next step is to get Tempests, giving him the advantage again. And it's not really clear what Terran's next step is after that, since so few games have been played to that point.
But what about that is a problem? Pendulum of counters is a pretty standard RTS design, and it works pretty well.
because there is no counter play for the toss other than building more obs.
my thought process is: HT and Ghost micro are almost even in skill (hts can feedback a ghost to stop it using emp/cloak while ghost can snipe and emp etc) and just requires the player to have a better control, this observer getting one shot problem do make or break this dedicate balance. And the importance of landing a storm is just as important as landing an emp. Toss only relies on its splash to win an engagement, Terran relies on taking out and reducing the amount of the splash.
I see people keep bringing up tempest, but how is it suppose to really help to protect the obs when it gets one shot'd? If I were to take your tempest example further, ghost and HTs are still the key units in late game situation, storm is incredibly important to deal with vikings clump. while interaction like pdds and tempest shot is more one sided and there really don't have much counter play for the Toss again, this is a lot less important is much less compared to HTs and Ghosts because they are what make or break every engagements
TheDwf has offered plenty of other counter-plays besides just building more observers. Oracle, cannon waypoints, storm retreat if it gets sniped, keep the observer out of range of the vikings, etc. You can even do the trick where you keep one observer about half a screen behind your army, and then when they scan your other observer and move in with cloak ghosts, you can bring in the second one and kill all the vulnerable ghosts.
HT and ghost micro is fairly even, but the risk/reward is not. The ghosts are basically there to negate the HT's (and to a lesser extent sentries, but they're less important by this stage usually). So if two or three HT's still get to storm, the Terran probably loses the fight. So if you have 10 HT's and I have 10 ghosts, I still need to take out basically every HT or my army will get destroyed (maybe 1 or 2 can stay alive if I dodge the storms well). Storms and EMPs are not of equal importance, because storm will actually kill my army, while EMP will only kinda weaken most of your army; it's just the spell-casters that it fully negates. So ghosts have cloak, which enables them to get the advantage in the HT vs. ghost micro. Because if my ghost micro is jut kinda even with your HT micro I lose the fight in a landslide.
Tempests aren't there to negate the obs snipe, although they do that pretty well, too. They're there to snipe off units in the Terran army, particularly ghosts and vikings. Of course the Protoss needs vision for that, so you can send out an obs and it might get sniped, but before it does you probably get to take out at least a viking or medivac, so you come out ahead, and if you really don't want to trade the obs you can get an oracle and use revelation. Then the Terran is forced to dash forward and engage, but you still have a colossus/HT/archon army which is much more powerful in a defensive position than an offensive one. So you throw down defensive storms, Terran can't approach, but he'll keep dying if he doesn't. Since you're in a defensive posture, you can easily keep your army within range of some cannons so obs snipe won't do so much anyway.
Tl;dr: 1. You have options besides building a million obs. 2. Ghosts have to defeat HTs convincingly, or else Terran loses the battle convincingly. Cloak helps them do that. 3. Tempests enable you force the Terran to engage. Storm is better defensively than offensively. Therefore Tempests make your storms much, much better.
Oracle - still an unreliable way to get detection when obs can get sniped right away, oracle will fall to one shot by vikings as well. cannon waypoints - this one is only possible when you are defending your base and not moving out. In WoL, it was popular for Terran do use nukes as a response. Storm retreat if it gets sniped - this is NOT a counter play, it is only a solution to avoid your whole army getting run over by the bio Keep the observer out of range of the vikings - of cause, you can have it all across on the other side of the screen to bring it back. But it won't be fast enough to pull back once the obs near the army is sniped and cloak ghost moving in. At best, it would just mean terran pull back the ghost and wait for another obs snipe.
Ghosts do defeat HTs evenly with snipe and emp, emp being an anti clump spell as well as a form of splash for terran bio. They are at equal importance because while storm does kill unit, you are going to get healed at a much quicker rate than protoss regenerate energy and shield. and protoss relies on their splash to kill terran bio while terran bio itself is the main dps. you taking out their ability to splash is already at even ground as landing a storm (not to mention you can't dodge emp onto your archons etcetc while you can split bio to migrate storm damage).
revelation doesn't reveal cloaked unit while envision just turn it into another observer basically.
If you have cannon waypoints and storm retreats, then even if you lose the obs you can just retreat until you have another one.
With oracle+envision you can move the oracle away from the vikings fast enough to keep it alive, and the vikings have to poke forward leaving them vulnerable. Oracles are much faster than vikings, so you should be able to keep it alive. You could also do this by researching observer speed, but that would be somewhat more difficult to manage.
Terran has to take a risk to snipe the obs – spend a scan, move vikings into a vulnerable position where storm/stalkers can hit them, then move cloaked ghosts forward where they would be hit by stalkers and colossi if they were visible. If he moves his ghosts forward into a vulnerable position and then you had another obs, his ghosts will die fairly quickly.
If you have colossi the vikings will probably shoot at them first. If you have multiple obs and Terran is spending his viking volleys focus firing obs rather than colossi, your colossi are doing a lot more damage than they would have.
If you land 3 storms on my army, my army is probably dead. If I land 3 EMPs on your army, your army is kind of annoyed. So if we both land 3 big AoE spells, you're miles ahead. That is why ghosts have to not just trade evenly with HTs; they have to destroy them.
You can dodge EMP into archons, it's just generally not worth the effort. Dodging storms is a matter of predicting where the storm will fall and then moving at the last moment. Yes storm is damage over time where EMP is instant, but storm is also instant cast while EMP is a projectile, if I recall correctly. Stim makes it a little easier to dodge for Terran, but you could still do it as Protoss; you're just probably better off spending your APM on storms or microing colossi or target-firing vikings with stalkers.
Lategame TvP is not T-favored now any more than it was in Wings of Liberty.
Imo sniping all observers as terran isn't as much as a terran strat, as it as something nice when the toss makes an error. Generally it is just that your army is whiped out, and you suddenly see all your ghosts are still alive, or you snipe an observer with vikings, because why not, and you see there isn't any other one left. But it is not often planned in advance: lets kill all observers and then kill him with ghosts.
Because you cannot plan on the protoss making a mistake. And from what I see generally it is the protoss making a mistake with all his nearby observers being ahead of his army. If he simply has multiple observers and not (all) ahead of his army it is going to cost you alot of your vikings (health) to snipe them. Miss one and you don't have enough vikings left to kill his colossi while he still has detection.
October 17 2013 04:10 plogamer wrote: How to win TvP according to ETisME: scan and kill obs, cloak ghosts and... Protoss pulls back behind a couple of retreat storms. Oh okay.
Jesus Christ, I am saying that part of engagement does favor terran and toss has little to none counter play for this other than building excessive amount of obs I even explicitly said the interaction for all HTs ghost obs scan viking are independent from upgrades and army strength.
But all you see is "how to win tvp?" wtf???
They are beyond reason. Even seeing it happen countless times in the hayday of gom tvt with the imbalanced emp can't convince them.
PvT lategame is entirely binary. Kill the splash and win. Don't kill the splash and it'll be closer. Let's not forget the joy that is hellbats either.
Toss winning in lategame is a matter of toss choosing their time to match their relative tech difference. I think half the hate is that terran players go from map control and bossing toss around to dancing about and being forced into engagements. I'd say I don't know how we could forget that lovely beach map and blanket emps but mind these are TL terran players. Bet you we'll see an argument that the scv health nerf has ruined pro careers.
Uh huh. No counter play? How about making extra obs and keeping back behind your army (obs build speed got buffed mind you). Cloak shimmer? Bring forth obs. Yeah protoss is balanced at top level - but obs micro is hardly top level play - and as stated by many here, is often a mistake from Protoss that Terran can't rely on.
Please spare us the condescending "there is no reasoning" talk. Gtfo if you truly think that way. You're just wasting yours and everyone else's time then.
On October 17 2013 06:22 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
Eh, sorry that video is blocked where I live, can you explain in words how to click on an obs that hides "in" a collossus? :-/
It's a reference to a BW video where BoxeR used medics to "optic flare" the observer stack of a Protoss going carrier (they were all stacked up and hidden underneath carrier sprites and following them much like an observer would follow collosi).
What he's saying is you just do it. The observers will lag behind collosi during movement and you just have to muscle up the micro to snipe them down ^^. Difficult? Yes. Rawwrr!
Yes, I am aware that they will lag behind since they won't accelerate to top speed instantly. But they will only lag behind minimally and catch up soon, since their upgraded speed is much faster than the movement speed of the collosi (2.8125 vs 2.25). So I am seriously wondering how something like that is realistically possible. :-/
On October 17 2013 06:22 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
Eh, sorry that video is blocked where I live, can you explain in words how to click on an obs that hides "in" a collossus? :-/
It's a reference to a BW video where BoxeR used medics to "optic flare" the observer stack of a Protoss going carrier (they were all stacked up and hidden underneath carrier sprites and following them much like an observer would follow collosi).
What he's saying is you just do it. The observers will lag behind collosi during movement and you just have to muscle up the micro to snipe them down ^^. Difficult? Yes. Rawwrr!
Yes, I am aware that they will lag behind since they won't accelerate to top speed instantly. But they will only lag behind minimally and catch up soon, since their upgraded speed is much faster than the movement speed of the collosi (2.8125 vs 2.25). So I am seriously wondering how something like that is realistically possible. :-/
Whenever I've been in this situation as a Terran and I have a hard time spotting the observers, I use the mouse scroll zoom-in to help see the observers more easily. I guess I'm not sure if my opponents have been "hiding" their observers inside of the the collosi, though.
On October 17 2013 06:22 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
Eh, sorry that video is blocked where I live, can you explain in words how to click on an obs that hides "in" a collossus? :-/
It's a reference to a BW video where BoxeR used medics to "optic flare" the observer stack of a Protoss going carrier (they were all stacked up and hidden underneath carrier sprites and following them much like an observer would follow collosi).
What he's saying is you just do it. The observers will lag behind collosi during movement and you just have to muscle up the micro to snipe them down ^^. Difficult? Yes. Rawwrr!
Yes, I am aware that they will lag behind since they won't accelerate to top speed instantly. But they will only lag behind minimally and catch up soon, since their upgraded speed is much faster than the movement speed of the collosi (2.8125 vs 2.25). So I am seriously wondering how something like that is realistically possible. :-/
The point was that if Boxer can manage to individually select each medic, activate optical flare, and then click each observer for like 8 observers that are hiding behind carriers and each other (how many were there actually? It's hard to tell from the video), then you it's "realistically possible" to right-click one or two of them.
On October 17 2013 06:22 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
Eh, sorry that video is blocked where I live, can you explain in words how to click on an obs that hides "in" a collossus? :-/
It's a reference to a BW video where BoxeR used medics to "optic flare" the observer stack of a Protoss going carrier (they were all stacked up and hidden underneath carrier sprites and following them much like an observer would follow collosi).
What he's saying is you just do it. The observers will lag behind collosi during movement and you just have to muscle up the micro to snipe them down ^^. Difficult? Yes. Rawwrr!
Yes, I am aware that they will lag behind since they won't accelerate to top speed instantly. But they will only lag behind minimally and catch up soon, since their upgraded speed is much faster than the movement speed of the collosi (2.8125 vs 2.25). So I am seriously wondering how something like that is realistically possible. :-/
The point was that if Boxer can manage to individually select each medic, activate optical flare, and then click each observer for like 8 observers that are hiding behind carriers and each other (how many were there actually? It's hard to tell from the video), then you it's "realistically possible" to right-click one or two of them.
Ah right, the solution is be like Boxer. I don't think that sniping obs is that big of a problem but come on, that analogy is just silly to give to a low level player.
On October 17 2013 06:22 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
Eh, sorry that video is blocked where I live, can you explain in words how to click on an obs that hides "in" a collossus? :-/
It's a reference to a BW video where BoxeR used medics to "optic flare" the observer stack of a Protoss going carrier (they were all stacked up and hidden underneath carrier sprites and following them much like an observer would follow collosi).
What he's saying is you just do it. The observers will lag behind collosi during movement and you just have to muscle up the micro to snipe them down ^^. Difficult? Yes. Rawwrr!
Yes, I am aware that they will lag behind since they won't accelerate to top speed instantly. But they will only lag behind minimally and catch up soon, since their upgraded speed is much faster than the movement speed of the collosi (2.8125 vs 2.25). So I am seriously wondering how something like that is realistically possible. :-/
The point was that if Boxer can manage to individually select each medic, activate optical flare, and then click each observer for like 8 observers that are hiding behind carriers and each other (how many were there actually? It's hard to tell from the video), then you it's "realistically possible" to right-click one or two of them.
Ah right, the solution is be like Boxer. I don't think that sniping obs is that big of a problem but come on, that analogy is just silly to give to a low level player.
The point was to show how cool SCLegacy's Pimpest Plays was an AWESOME BW thing.
But, more specifically, a lot of the times the only way to do it is to do it.
For example, I like getting 6+ Orbitals in the late game, but instead of saccing workers I use heavy scans to scout and spot observers. Sure my money is low and I need to win one fight or die, but I don't have problems with Observers. I could also just as easily sac scvs and build a bigger army. I'll lose more troops due to the protoss player having an easier time landing storms and feedbacks.
Its a give and take because I am not a good player.
The answer he is looking for is you do it like Taeja does it, where you almost always see the shimmer then scan+target the obs.
EPT
