I don't think you are understanding my point. His army strength is not related to how ghost vs HT interaction goes. What I meant with upgrade is the necessary upgrades for the HTs and ghost micro to occur. 3 3 3 toss won't be able to stop viking scan one shot obs.
Even if protoss was the aggressor (due to getting a stronger deathball faster than terran's), it would not help terran scan and sniping obs. I am not using that game as an example how a toss can be beat by terran purely by sniping obs, I am using it to show the case how difficult it is for toss to have an answer against cloak ghost when the terran snipe obs.
The momentum of the deathball posturing will all favor terran as soon as terran sniped the obs while toss doesn't not have the mean to stop obs getting one shot'd
This is why I said even if toss has 5K banked, as soon as as the obs get sniped, he cannot but to lose the army posturing and has to wait till he has another obs.
You can point out all the difference between all the games but one thing won't change, given am army of 10 Vikings bio ghost against that ht colossus gateway death ball, scan will always mean obs will get one shot by Vikings and lead to HTs having a more difficult time against cloak ghost.
Of cause if you bring in tempest, then the game would be different, arguably you can still one shot obs and the tempest would be less useful but that is just another issue because we see tempest in tvp almost as often as we see hellbats.
October 17 2013 04:10 plogamer wrote: How to win TvP according to ETisME: scan and kill obs, cloak ghosts and... Protoss pulls back behind a couple of retreat storms. Oh okay.
Jesus Christ, I am saying that part of engagement does favor terran and toss has little to none counter play for this other than building excessive amount of obs I even explicitly said the interaction for all HTs ghost obs scan viking are independent from upgrades and army strength.
On October 17 2013 03:58 ETisME wrote: I don't think you are understanding my point. His army strength is not related to how ghost vs HT interaction goes. What I meant with upgrade is the necessary upgrades for the HTs and ghost micro to occur. 3 3 3 toss won't be able to stop viking scan one shot obs.
Even if protoss was the aggressor (due to getting a stronger deathball faster than terran's), it would not help terran scan and sniping obs. I am not using that game as an example how a toss can be beat by terran purely by sniping obs, I am using it to show the case how difficult it is for toss to have an answer against cloak ghost when the terran snipe obs.
The momentum of the deathball posturing will all favor terran as soon as terran sniped the obs while toss doesn't not have the mean to stop obs getting one shot'd
This is why I said even if toss has 5K banked, as soon as as the obs get sniped, he cannot but to lose the army posturing and has to wait till he has another obs.
You can point out all the difference between all the games but one thing won't change, given am army of 10 Vikings bio ghost against that ht colossus gateway death ball, scan will always mean obs will get one shot by Vikings and lead to HTs having a more difficult time against cloak ghost.
Of cause if you bring in tempest, then the game would be different, arguably you can still one shot obs and the tempest would be less useful but that is just another issue because we see tempest in tvp almost as often as we see hellbats.
I have already answered that:
On October 17 2013 02:05 TheDwf wrote: Who cares if sniping Observers is "easier than to defend it" when lategame TvP is massively in Protoss' favor anyway? Not to mention Protoss can simply follow their Colossi with 2-3 Observer(s) to have detection in the fight, or build a Stargate and one Oracle to cast Revelation if they want to know the position of Terran's army.
I have no idea why you're discussing this particular point; Protoss has absolutely zero trouble stomping Terran in lategame, and most of the time engagements have actually little to do with the way Protoss wins (= killing Terran's economy with the constant harass), so Observer sniping is barely relevant.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot the possibility to build Cannon outposts in key paths/areas of the map to provide detection.
Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
The entirety of SC2 is not a metagame shift when Terran's get stomped by Protoss late game. I don't ever recall a time when a Terran player willingly goes into the late game against a Protoss unless it was like Polt/Taeja vs some random foreigner
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
He's talking about how Banshees/Mines *Needs* detection or toss dies as opposed to terrans dont *need* detection against Mothership/Obs, only DTs which are "all in."
October 17 2013 04:10 plogamer wrote: How to win TvP according to ETisME: scan and kill obs, cloak ghosts and... Protoss pulls back behind a couple of retreat storms. Oh okay.
Jesus Christ, I am saying that part of engagement does favor terran and toss has little to none counter play for this other than building excessive amount of obs I even explicitly said the interaction for all HTs ghost obs scan viking are independent from upgrades and army strength.
But all you see is "how to win tvp?" wtf???
They are beyond reason. Even seeing it happen countless times in the hayday of gom tvt with the imbalanced emp can't convince them.
PvT lategame is entirely binary. Kill the splash and win. Don't kill the splash and it'll be closer. Let's not forget the joy that is hellbats either.
Toss winning in lategame is a matter of toss choosing their time to match their relative tech difference. I think half the hate is that terran players go from map control and bossing toss around to dancing about and being forced into engagements. I'd say I don't know how we could forget that lovely beach map and blanket emps but mind these are TL terran players. Bet you we'll see an argument that the scv health nerf has ruined pro careers.
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
The entirety of SC2 is not a metagame shift when Terran's get stomped by Protoss late game. I don't ever recall a time when a Terran player willingly goes into the late game against a Protoss unless it was like Polt/Taeja vs some random foreigner
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
Its mostly because when two armies are posturing. Whether HTs get emp'd or terran bio got time warp plus storm are usually the deciding factor of who wins in that engagement.
The rest of the dps trading are all about getting the right amount of units and positioning. But the engagement heavily swing in one side if nice storm or nice emp are landed.
In this sense, toss not having a reliable way to deal with cloak ghost just don't seem right for me.
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Sounds like 2 different races have 2 different ways to detect to me.
And different needs too. What I don't understand is why terran is given a much stronger detection (ghost emp/scan) when toss is more concern about cloak units. (while I can understand why vision is more important than toss)
The top level TvP is all about ghost and HT control and this is why Taeja is good at tvp. I don't understand why they would leave a lack of counter play for something as fundermental important as this.
Should this be balanced by the overall toss army being stronger than terran bio?
If it's just me then that's ok.
It doesn't make sense to me when you say that Toss is more concerned about cloaked units. I don't really know what you're trying to get across with that. Unless you're implying that things like dark templars are not really a big deal to Terran's in the late game, they can be just as deadly as cloaked ghosts if you're not properly prepared (or you don't pay attention), similar to how if you're not properly prepared (don't have obs) or don't pay attention (let obs get sniped)
Its mostly because when two armies are posturing. Whether HTs get emp'd or terran bio got time warp plus storm are usually the deciding factor of who wins in that engagement.
The rest of the dps trading are all about getting the right amount of units and positioning. But the engagement heavily swing in one side if nice storm or nice emp are landed.
In this sense, toss not having a reliable way to deal with cloak ghost just don't seem right for me.
I don't get this argument. Can you give me a sizeable number of games where this was actually a problem (not the cloaked ghosts hitting something, but the Protoss actually losing because of it - otherwise it's the same as a DT taking a swing). I only remember games where it didn't really matter, like Hack versus Naniwa on Whirlwind.
Considering that P does have Oracles that are immune to the same problem (revelation cannot be sniped away), storm ignores cloak and ghosts have limited energy so retreating is a viable tactic, I don't see why we are talking about this.
It sounds like the juxtaposition between terrans having mules and P having chrono. One gets probes faster, the other gets an additional better harvester.
On October 17 2013 04:56 ETisME wrote: Your reason is who cares when tvp is p favored which I am not arguing against. But this isn't a good argument because lategame toss stomping terran is a metagame shift while I am arguing for the fundermental design issue for lack of a "reliable" detection unit.
Using your example, provide detection over key area by building cannons means that they don't do as well while posturing against each other.
If the metagame shift back to terran dominating in mid game and toss managed to get into late game against Terran, the lack of reliable detection will always put toss in a worse position.
The only reason why you aren't thinking about this problem is only because we rarely get to this point where the problem is more apparent since the metagame is heavily favoring toss with its greedy and quick tech play killing terran before terran able to get an equally if not stronger deathball, the ghost marauder viking medivac ball.
How toss is wining the game is another seperate issue.
Protoss having a much better lategame than Terran has absolutely nothing to do with "metagame shifts," it's the consequence of the absurd functioning of Warpgate and the fact Protoss has stronger armies with superior supply-efficiency. This is also like the 5th time you completely ignore the simple method I mentioned, i. e. using Observers in Move command behind Colossi to give detection.
Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
On October 17 2013 06:22 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
On October 17 2013 06:22 JustPassingBy wrote: Quick question from a low level player? Is it even possible to snipe every obs of the protoss? I mean if he has a few obs mingling with his collossi, how can you click on it?
I recall that players like MorroW were/are constructing super armies in TvP, is this not a thing anymore? Sacking SCVs and getting mass orbital/and building marauder/ghost/viking only and focusing on muscling through multiple protoss warp-ins.
Of course I can only remember, it's probably rare to get to such a position as a Terran. I feel for you bros T_T.
Why don't we see more players go up to 90 or so drones? I recall seeing Suppy and crew analyze a game with Roro (Roro vs. Sorry? - HERE, at 1:23) where he went up to 90 (My ideal number would be 22+22+22+16 = 82) drones which allowed him to constantly maintain 200/200 without the massive decrease of mineral income most zergs have in the lategame (in particular referencing DRG vs. Innovation, where he had 2000 gas banked every game but no minerals, and was hovering at 150-160 supply for most of the game). Roro didn't even micro and just overwhelmed his opponent.
It seems like a mineral focus would be so much stronger and being able to use that buffer and not float so much gas such a boon. I would just LOVE to see mass hatch style (with that amount of drones you can support 7 hatches!) style play and going toe to toe with the Terran. At least I've been playing with that as my late game aim and it's very entertaining.
On October 17 2013 06:54 Qwyn wrote: I recall that players like MorroW were/are constructing super armies in TvP, is this not a thing anymore? sacking SCVs and getting mass orbital/and building marauder/ghost/viking only and focusing on muscling through multiple protoss warp-ins.
Of course I can only remember, it's probably rare to get to such a position as a Terran. I feel for you bros T_T.
Why don't we see more players go up to 90 or so drones? I recall seeing Suppy and crew analyze a game with Roro (Roro vs. Sorry? - HERE, at 1:23) where he went up to 90 (My ideal number would be 22+22+22+16 = 82) drones which allowed him to constantly maintain 200/200 without the massive decrease of mineral income most zergs have in the lategame (in particular referencing DRG vs. Innovation, where he had 2000 gas banked every game but no minerals, and was hovering at 150-160 supply for most of the game). Roro didn't even micro and just overwhelmed his opponent
It seems like a mineral focus would be so much stronger and being able to use that buffer and not float so much gas such a boon. I would just LOVE to see mass hatch style (with that amount of drones you can support 7 hatches!) style play and going toe to toe with the Terran. At least I've been playing with that as my late game aim and it's very entertaining.
Purposefully playing towards lategame TvP became rarer as Protoss got the Tempest and learnt to master some techniques (Zealots/DTs Prism harass, multi-layer Templar defence, Cannons outposts, hiding Templars on the map, Tempests transitions, etc.) to establish their dominance in this phase; as a result, the Terran generally gets killed before reaching mass Ghosts/Vikings, or is left slowly starving while Protoss slowly destroys his army.
On October 17 2013 06:54 Qwyn wrote: I recall that players like MorroW were/are constructing super armies in TvP, is this not a thing anymore? sacking SCVs and getting mass orbital/and building marauder/ghost/viking only and focusing on muscling through multiple protoss warp-ins.
Of course I can only remember, it's probably rare to get to such a position as a Terran. I feel for you bros T_T.
Why don't we see more players go up to 90 or so drones? I recall seeing Suppy and crew analyze a game with Roro (Roro vs. Sorry? - HERE, at 1:23) where he went up to 90 (My ideal number would be 22+22+22+16 = 82) drones which allowed him to constantly maintain 200/200 without the massive decrease of mineral income most zergs have in the lategame (in particular referencing DRG vs. Innovation, where he had 2000 gas banked every game but no minerals, and was hovering at 150-160 supply for most of the game). Roro didn't even micro and just overwhelmed his opponent
It seems like a mineral focus would be so much stronger and being able to use that buffer and not float so much gas such a boon. I would just LOVE to see mass hatch style (with that amount of drones you can support 7 hatches!) style play and going toe to toe with the Terran. At least I've been playing with that as my late game aim and it's very entertaining.
Purposefully playing towards lategame TvP became rarer as Protoss got the Tempest and learnt to master some techniques (Zealots/DTs Prism harass, multi-layer Templar defence, Cannons outposts, hiding Templars on the map, Tempests transitions, etc.) to establish their dominance in this phase; as a result, the Terran generally gets killed before reaching mass Ghosts/Vikings, or is left slowly starving while Protoss slowly destroys his army.
Going up to 85-90 drones is common in ZvT.
In the end its also just much more efficient to pull the scvs than to slowly whittle them down. Because if the choice is slowly sac probes for a strong army later--at the cost of facing a strong protoss army vs saccing all your scvs at once before Protoss finishes storm...
EPT
