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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On October 01 2013 17:57 Glorfindel! wrote: Seems like Terran are doing worst and are getting nerfed? O.o nerfed and double buffed. PvT also changing into Ts direction while TvZ into Zs direction while PvZ into Ps direction. dont know where you get from T is doing worst after doing best for 6 months lol. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On October 01 2013 18:13 Decendos wrote: nerfed and double buffed. PvT also changing into Ts direction while TvZ into Zs direction while PvZ into Ps direction. dont know where you get from T is doing worst after doing best for 6 months lol. Dreamhack shifts it into Terrans favor, because Korean Terrans played against non-Koreans which mostly leads to utter domination. Korean statistics are better in terms of understanding, but as my discussion with chaosterran shows, those are merely statistics and for multiple reasons cannot be taken as super-serious balance discussion ground. | ||
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pmp10
3401 Posts
On October 01 2013 17:57 Glorfindel! wrote: Seems like Terran are doing worst and are getting nerfed? O.o To be fair - officially the patch is about unit variety. Nerfing terran is just a very desirable side-effect. | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On October 01 2013 18:13 Decendos wrote: nerfed and double buffed. PvT also changing into Ts direction while TvZ into Zs direction while PvZ into Ps direction. dont know where you get from T is doing worst after doing best for 6 months lol. Not sure if trolling or just stupid.. Lets say we reduce Carrier build time with 5 seconds and give Warp Prism +10 Shield HP. But we decrease Thermal Lance Range to 7 instead of 9. Protoss is obv. getting nerfed and not buffed in this scenario. Even though the "double buff" O.o Ask any Terran if they rather have the splash radius on the mines or a 10% speed-attack-buff for Tanks and I think you would get quite a one sided answer. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On October 01 2013 18:27 Glorfindel! wrote: Not sure if trolling or just stupid.. Lets say we reduce Carrier build time with 5 seconds and give Warp Prism +10 Shield HP. But we decrease Thermal Lance Range to 7 instead of 9. Protoss is obv. getting nerfed and not buffed in this scenario. Even though the "double buff" O.o Ask any Terran if they rather have the splash radius on the mines or a 10% speed-attack-buff for Tanks and I think you would get quite a one sided answer. you know...its called a test map and blizzard already increased the splash radius tested from 1,11 to 1,25 and if its too weak they will increase it more. its all about variety = make tanks viable and MMMM only less viable. if you dont get that its not me who is stupid. | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On October 01 2013 18:36 Decendos wrote: you know...its called a test map and blizzard already increased the splash radius tested from 1,11 to 1,25 and if its too weak they will increase it more. its all about variety = make tanks viable and MMMM only less viable. if you dont get that its not me who is stupid. I totally got what they intend to do. I am quite sure I said they are nerfing Terran, not that I did not understand what the patch is about? As the patch notes read right now I consider the patch to be a nerf for Terran since the given ups does not cover the downsides of a much smaller Mine-radius. (Current Splash Area is 9,6. - Nerfed Area 7,85) | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
If so (i cant do a ton of math right now) then it's only because zerglings are among the highest scaling units with upgrades in the game | ||
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TheBB
Switzerland5133 Posts
On October 01 2013 17:57 Glorfindel! wrote: Seems like Terran are doing worst and are getting nerfed? O.o You have to realise how that performance difference graph works. If a race is doing exceptionally well for a while, their rating anomaly will go up. Once the balance or metagame or whatever you call it then returns to normal, they will have higher ratings than they should have, which means that they will appear to underperform for a bit. This chart will make regression toward the mean look like imbalance in the other direction, which makes it a little difficult to interpret sometimes. Basically, there's evidence for significant metagame shift if the performance difference for a single race is sustained off-center for a long while (see Zerg, from mid 2012 up to HotS). | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On October 01 2013 18:56 Cyro wrote: If so (i cant do a ton of math right now) then it's only because zerglings are among the highest scaling units with upgrades in the game Adrenal Glands "increases Zergling attack speed by 18.6%", +1 attack commonly gives a 20% or 25% boost to damage. Keep in mind that damage is more meaningful than attack speed usually, since the first hit is free, so to say. Also keep in mind that adrenal glands improved zergling attack by 33% in brood war. I think the fact that many progamers forget about adrenal glands shows you that it's not that powerful. And of course if you use zerglings only for soaking damage then it's meaningless anyway. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 01 2013 19:34 Grumbels wrote: Adrenal Glands "increases Zergling attack speed by 18.6%", +1 attack commonly gives a 20% or 25% boost to damage. Keep in mind that damage is more meaningful than attack speed usually, since the first hit is free, so to say. Also keep in mind that adrenal glands improved zergling attack by 33% in brood war. I think the fact that many progamers forget about adrenal glands shows you that it's not that powerful. And of course if you use zerglings only for soaking damage then it's meaningless anyway. Yes, and most importantly adrenalin glands is a zergling only upgrade that costs as much as a "all melee" or "all flyers" or "all ground unit" upgrade. On top of it, the zergling is - in the only matchup where you usually play melee style - the least important unit of your (combat) composition. With ling/bling/ultra/muta you win or lose against terran depending on the baneling hits, ultralisk engagements and the amount of mutalisks you get. The zerglings job is for the most part just damage soaking, unit clean up and counterattacking. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On October 01 2013 19:34 Grumbels wrote: Adrenal Glands "increases Zergling attack speed by 18.6%", +1 attack commonly gives a 20% or 25% boost to damage. Keep in mind that damage is more meaningful than attack speed usually, since the first hit is free, so to say. Also keep in mind that adrenal glands improved zergling attack by 33% in brood war. I think the fact that many progamers forget about adrenal glands shows you that it's not that powerful. And of course if you use zerglings only for soaking damage then it's meaningless anyway. Pro zergs get adrenal glands all the time. They might not have back when all they built was broodlords, infestors and spines. But current meta in zvt if they have a hive for +3 upgrades they will also get adrenal glands. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On October 01 2013 19:56 Big J wrote: Yes, and most importantly adrenalin glands is a zergling only upgrade that costs as much as a "all melee" or "all flyers" or "all ground unit" upgrade. On top of it, the zergling is - in the only matchup where you usually play melee style - the least important unit of your (combat) composition. With ling/bling/ultra/muta you win or lose against terran depending on the baneling hits, ultralisk engagements and the amount of mutalisks you get. The zerglings job is for the most part just damage soaking, unit clean up and counterattacking. It would actually be nice if adrenal glands would give a +5 hp buff as well or something like that*, damage output in late game is so high that the low hp of the zergling is really detrimental. It reminds me of when Blizzard had to give archers in WC3 magic resistance because you could just use aoe spells to make them useless. *not a balance suggestion, but for LotV maybe | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On October 01 2013 19:34 Grumbels wrote: Oh no! A mere 18.6% attack speed increase for the already highest damage-dealer-per-cost unit in the game!Adrenal Glands "increases Zergling attack speed by 18.6%", +1 attack commonly gives a 20% or 25% boost to damage. Keep in mind that damage is more meaningful than attack speed usually, since the first hit is free, so to say. Also keep in mind that adrenal glands improved zergling attack by 33% in brood war. I think the fact that many progamers forget about adrenal glands shows you that it's not that powerful. And of course if you use zerglings only for soaking damage then it's meaningless anyway. Adrenal glands is a good upgrade. Pros using lings who forget to get the upgrade would absolutely be better off getting it. That 15-second Nexus snipe could have been done in 12.5s. It tips the zerglings vs. zealots dynamic thoroughly in Zerg's favor. There is literally no reason not to get it when you have the funds except for vague assertions of it not being "worth it". | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On October 01 2013 20:55 RampancyTW wrote: Oh no! A mere 18.6% attack speed increase for the already highest damage-dealer-per-cost unit in the game! Adrenal glands is a good upgrade. Pros using lings who forget to get the upgrade would absolutely be better off getting it. That 15-second Nexus snipe could have been done in 12.5s. It tips the zerglings vs. zealots dynamic thoroughly in Zerg's favor. There is literally no reason not to get it when you have the funds except for vague assertions of it not being "worth it". No need to be dramatic, I just said it was relatively weak, not that it was worthless. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On October 01 2013 20:55 RampancyTW wrote: Oh no! A mere 18.6% attack speed increase for the already highest damage-dealer-per-cost unit in the game! Adrenal glands is a good upgrade. Pros using lings who forget to get the upgrade would absolutely be better off getting it. That 15-second Nexus snipe could have been done in 12.5s. It tips the zerglings vs. zealots dynamic thoroughly in Zerg's favor. There is literally no reason not to get it when you have the funds except for vague assertions of it not being "worth it". Why did you put "worth it" in quotes? He didn't say it wasn't worth it. He said it wasn't that great for a 200/200 hive-level upgrade that only affects one unit. You're right that it's already the highest damage-dealer in the game. But why do late-game Zerg unit compositions have units other than Zerglings? Because Zerglings have weaknesses that make their damage output irrelevant. Adrenal glands upping the damage output is not what the Zergling needs to perform better. It's like someone playing Diablo 2 and building their entire character around damage output, and then getting a faster attack speed. It doesn't make them any better of a character. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 01 2013 20:17 Grumbels wrote: It would actually be nice if adrenal glands would give a +5 hp buff as well or something like that*, damage output in late game is so high that the low hp of the zergling is really detrimental. It reminds me of when Blizzard had to give archers in WC3 magic resistance because you could just use aoe spells to make them useless. *not a balance suggestion, but for LotV maybe I think it's more than fine. Having your start, mineralonly unit go to "4/3" is really potent on paper and strong in certain builds, like the old Stephano WoL TvZ Ultra/ling/infestor or the ultralisk/zergling builds in ZvP. Unlike something like tunneling claws or auto turret duration, this skill is one that actually makes sense if you play it in the right build or if the situation just allows you to spend the extra 200/200 (e.g. when you already have an advantage). It's just not something you build your strategy around (like baneling speed, stim, blink or upgrade builds in general), but nevertheless it can be very potent. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20345 Posts
On October 01 2013 19:34 Grumbels wrote: Adrenal Glands "increases Zergling attack speed by 18.6%", +1 attack commonly gives a 20% or 25% boost to damage. Keep in mind that damage is more meaningful than attack speed usually, since the first hit is free, so to say. Also keep in mind that adrenal glands improved zergling attack by 33% in brood war. I think the fact that many progamers forget about adrenal glands shows you that it's not that powerful. And of course if you use zerglings only for soaking damage then it's meaningless anyway. You have to consider the fact that damage increases are worth exponential amounts, not linear, especially when there is some kind of healing involved, like zerglings against marines+medivacs. Also; +1 attack commonly gives a 20% or 25% boost to damage. Zerglings do 5 damage, so upgrades are ~ +20% dmg, +16.7% dmg, + 14.2% dmg (one, two, three for attack upgrades over armor of your opponent) but if he has +3 armor, they effectively don't exist, so it's only an option for taking an edge while you can take an upgrade lead over your opponent. This is typically pretty difficult in current meta, because a lot of terrans religiously double up, and making the step past 2-2 can be trickier for the zerg than terranIf you consider your target is getting healed with a medivac and is equal upgrades, then: Without adrenal glands; 1 ling: 11.4dps, -9 for healing, 2.4 damage per second on target Without adrenal glands; 2 lings: 22.8dps, -9 for healing, 13.8 damage per second on target With adrenal glands; 1 ling; 13.6dps, -9 for healing, 4.6 damage per second on target With adrenal glands; 2 lings; 27.2fps, -0 for healing, 18.2 damage per second on target ^So it's quite significant and particularly relevant for such application, but relevant for everything, because a linear increase in damage is always worth an exponential amount, because the more damage you do early, the more enemy forces you remove, which prevents them from removing your DPS as fast etc; It's more of a pendulum that can swing violently in either direction than a tug of war. Every edge that you can get to push it over the right way is worth the world, that's why macro is king in sc2 1 ling hitting a marine under medivac realistically shouldn't do anything, but if you're engaging in larger numbers it's hard to get the surface area that melee units need to scale, the 13.8 vs 18.2 dps is quite eye opening i think | ||
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OneSpeed
Norway47 Posts
I've been around long time to notice this. Edit: Now my opinion about the end of this year, is that after the most likely Terran nerf to come (widow mine), Terran will face harder time than the times at the end of WoL. True or false, just wait and see. | ||
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frontline-
Bulgaria281 Posts
Also I'd like the get their input on the larva inject mechanic, because they probably think it's balanced. Rebuilding,producing and remaxing at a ridiculously fast rate is supposed to be balanced. What an absurd. Am I supposed to feel motivated to play against a race with an imbalanced mechanic? Should I feel like a hero who is about to die for a bigger cause? ..... | ||
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
On October 03 2013 17:20 OneSpeed wrote: This might be a biased opinion. But I think the playerbase of both Zerg and Protoss is so massively huge, that Terrans are underrepresented in every discussion, tournament, ladder, live shows. Everytime a Terran comes up with a defensive opinion about his race (which can be true or not), 10 other zerg or protoss throw themselves over him with counter opinions (which are not true or true) I've been around long time to notice this. Edit: Now my opinion about the end of this year, is that after the most likely Terran nerf to come (widow mine), Terran will face harder time than the times at the end of WoL. True or false, just wait and see. I've been a devout fan of SC2 since the original beta. Terran has always been the dominant race. At the top, top tier of skill, GSL Code S, the best Terrans will always beat their opponents of other races, especially TvP. TvZ is certainly more even, and in the "broodfestor" era it was almost Zerg-favoured, but Terran is still the most versatile, well-rounded race with the highest skill ceiling, and nothing Blizzard has done throughout the whole history of SC2 has changed that. | ||
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