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On August 28 2013 20:32 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 20:28 ETisME wrote:On August 28 2013 16:18 Insoleet wrote:
I dont think TvZ is imbalanced. The 3 bases push of korean terrans is stupidly strong, yes, but its a matter of time before zergs figure it out.
Just look at Scarlett who lost only 3-2 to Bomber. If jaedong got destroyed 4-0 by Polt & Bomber, its mostly because ... he is terrible at ZvT.
This push has a huge weakness : there is no 4th OC. There cant be one.
So, zergs playing with mass muta are having a good winrate against terran. No hive, just mass mutalisks. Because mass muta can beat small groups of marines (15-20 marines) easily and cost-effectively, and they can kill OC very fast, they are the best answer to the never-ending push of the 3CC 4M build.
Jaedong lost against this build because he tried to go to hive while building a huge amount of mutalisks. But you cant.. It's not like WoL, Hive is not the answer anymore, mass muta then hive is way better. Scarlett didn't win those games anymore than Bomber throwing them away. 1 game Bomber completely gave up on harassing or doing timings. another Bomber had a huge lead after that hellion run bys and failing in his follow up pushes quite horribly. And the no 4th OC is wrong, I clearly remember Ryung vs Nestea game, Ryung had a 4th. Or just go back to Scarlett vs Bomber, bomber had a 4th OC morphing at 19 mins or game 3, bomber build a 4th in base or game number 4, bomber build 2 CCs at the same time while getting 15 marines at one cycle. game 5? also a 4th Runby with hellions and killing 15 drones is actually not what you say. Its no huge advantage. Its a good economical kill, but barely an advantage. You give up your complete map control and map vision that is already hard to maintain and easy to lose, creepspread especially against Scarlett is important to keep in place which he couldn't. Also killing economy only matters if you can follow it up with a push which he couldn't for at least a couple of minutes that are enough to give the Zerg time needed to be back into place. So wrong read on your part. Thats one reason Terrans stopped doing it btw.
Personally I would say that the goal to achieve when attacking a third Zerg base isnt so much the Drones but rather limiting the larvae production by actually killing the hatchery or at least the Queen. Thats the same as eliminating a third of the Barracks and other production facilities a Terran has ... which is a lot. Due to the light nature of the larvae and the area attack of the Hellions they are even good at killing them (but not the Cocoons).
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Blame Blizzard that Terran has no viable playstyle but biomine 
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On August 29 2013 14:24 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 13:44 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 29 2013 13:27 Rabiator wrote:On August 29 2013 10:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 21:32 Lock0n wrote:
I played a TvZ where the Zerg just crushed my 12 minute push with banelings, then he rushed straight into mass ultra. The next engagement we were both maxed, and his ultras just killed my MMMM army in around 5secs, and I had lost twice as much army value as him, and he just strolled into my bases and won the game. Ultra are just the most ridiculously cost efficient unit in the game.
Zerg says MMMM with perfect splitting and flawless macro is easy to play? I say turtling as Zerg then making mass ultra and A moving is easier, and much harder to stop than MMMM.
T macro is the easiest by far. Though the micro vs Z can be difficult. I would love it if you could post the replay though, so we don't only get your side of the story. Why do you think that Terran macro is so much easier? Sure you have the MULE to get a big chunk of minerals, but that is made up by having to build a large amount of production building AND addons. Getting the right timing for that and the correct distribution off Reactors and Tech labs isnt that trivial as people think it is. Once that is done the game becomes easier for the Terran since his options to change up the stuff he produces are extremely limited. So yeah, once the macro is set up its really easy, but getting there isnt trivial ... and thats why I am saying that Zerg need to attack the production facilities over any resource gathering bases. Because it really isnt difficult to get that going. I know T macro is easy because I played a little bit of T a while back and I kept my resources low basically always with minimal queuing. T is the only race that lets you queue units and slack a little in your main buildings macro ability. You dont have to be 100% exact with your mules, you dont have to start units right as your old units finish (you can start many of them before the old ones finish). You dont have any other option to "getting more units" than queueing ... well you could build more Barracks, but if you already know you cant support them on a regular basis that is pointless. Zerg and Protoss both have "burst production" which they can save/stockpile until their supply drops below 200 and Terran doesnt ... so building an excess of production slots makes sense for Zerg and Protoss but not really for Terrans. There is a "natural maximum" of income you have from SCVs plus a fluctuating burst income from MULEs, but the production is steady at a constant speed. Personally I would say the stockpiled production is a big advantage for the other two races, because they can use it relatively easily.
you are also forgetting the cost efficient unit that it is building.
sure zerg can remax into maxed faster, but the unit composition isn't as cost efficient, just look at how long it takes to build ultras/broodlords or even banelings. Same as protoss, are you going to max out with just 2 to 3 colossus, everything else gateway units (hts that have no energy?)
you had been complaining way too much about mass economy, mass production stuff, completely forgetting about what kind of units you are remaxing and the time it takes
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On August 29 2013 14:34 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 20:32 NarutO wrote:On August 28 2013 20:28 ETisME wrote:On August 28 2013 16:18 Insoleet wrote:
I dont think TvZ is imbalanced. The 3 bases push of korean terrans is stupidly strong, yes, but its a matter of time before zergs figure it out.
Just look at Scarlett who lost only 3-2 to Bomber. If jaedong got destroyed 4-0 by Polt & Bomber, its mostly because ... he is terrible at ZvT.
This push has a huge weakness : there is no 4th OC. There cant be one.
So, zergs playing with mass muta are having a good winrate against terran. No hive, just mass mutalisks. Because mass muta can beat small groups of marines (15-20 marines) easily and cost-effectively, and they can kill OC very fast, they are the best answer to the never-ending push of the 3CC 4M build.
Jaedong lost against this build because he tried to go to hive while building a huge amount of mutalisks. But you cant.. It's not like WoL, Hive is not the answer anymore, mass muta then hive is way better. Scarlett didn't win those games anymore than Bomber throwing them away. 1 game Bomber completely gave up on harassing or doing timings. another Bomber had a huge lead after that hellion run bys and failing in his follow up pushes quite horribly. And the no 4th OC is wrong, I clearly remember Ryung vs Nestea game, Ryung had a 4th. Or just go back to Scarlett vs Bomber, bomber had a 4th OC morphing at 19 mins or game 3, bomber build a 4th in base or game number 4, bomber build 2 CCs at the same time while getting 15 marines at one cycle. game 5? also a 4th Runby with hellions and killing 15 drones is actually not what you say. Its no huge advantage. Its a good economical kill, but barely an advantage. You give up your complete map control and map vision that is already hard to maintain and easy to lose, creepspread especially against Scarlett is important to keep in place which he couldn't. Also killing economy only matters if you can follow it up with a push which he couldn't for at least a couple of minutes that are enough to give the Zerg time needed to be back into place. So wrong read on your part. Thats one reason Terrans stopped doing it btw. Personally I would say that the goal to achieve when attacking a third Zerg base isnt so much the Drones but rather limiting the larvae production by actually killing the hatchery or at least the Queen. Thats the same as eliminating a third of the Barracks and other production facilities a Terran has ... which is a lot. Due to the light nature of the larvae and the area attack of the Hellions they are even good at killing them (but not the Cocoons).
Has nothing to do with what we just talked about
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On August 29 2013 14:40 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 14:34 Rabiator wrote:On August 28 2013 20:32 NarutO wrote:On August 28 2013 20:28 ETisME wrote:On August 28 2013 16:18 Insoleet wrote:
I dont think TvZ is imbalanced. The 3 bases push of korean terrans is stupidly strong, yes, but its a matter of time before zergs figure it out.
Just look at Scarlett who lost only 3-2 to Bomber. If jaedong got destroyed 4-0 by Polt & Bomber, its mostly because ... he is terrible at ZvT.
This push has a huge weakness : there is no 4th OC. There cant be one.
So, zergs playing with mass muta are having a good winrate against terran. No hive, just mass mutalisks. Because mass muta can beat small groups of marines (15-20 marines) easily and cost-effectively, and they can kill OC very fast, they are the best answer to the never-ending push of the 3CC 4M build.
Jaedong lost against this build because he tried to go to hive while building a huge amount of mutalisks. But you cant.. It's not like WoL, Hive is not the answer anymore, mass muta then hive is way better. Scarlett didn't win those games anymore than Bomber throwing them away. 1 game Bomber completely gave up on harassing or doing timings. another Bomber had a huge lead after that hellion run bys and failing in his follow up pushes quite horribly. And the no 4th OC is wrong, I clearly remember Ryung vs Nestea game, Ryung had a 4th. Or just go back to Scarlett vs Bomber, bomber had a 4th OC morphing at 19 mins or game 3, bomber build a 4th in base or game number 4, bomber build 2 CCs at the same time while getting 15 marines at one cycle. game 5? also a 4th Runby with hellions and killing 15 drones is actually not what you say. Its no huge advantage. Its a good economical kill, but barely an advantage. You give up your complete map control and map vision that is already hard to maintain and easy to lose, creepspread especially against Scarlett is important to keep in place which he couldn't. Also killing economy only matters if you can follow it up with a push which he couldn't for at least a couple of minutes that are enough to give the Zerg time needed to be back into place. So wrong read on your part. Thats one reason Terrans stopped doing it btw. Personally I would say that the goal to achieve when attacking a third Zerg base isnt so much the Drones but rather limiting the larvae production by actually killing the hatchery or at least the Queen. Thats the same as eliminating a third of the Barracks and other production facilities a Terran has ... which is a lot. Due to the light nature of the larvae and the area attack of the Hellions they are even good at killing them (but not the Cocoons). Has nothing to do with what we just talked about
It only supports your point that attacking a third with 15 Hellions to kill the Drones isnt that great ...
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...? Read again I suggest
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On August 28 2013 20:28 Terence Chill wrote:
just make OCs unliftable like PFs. i never understood why terrans have the advantage of moving all over the map when mined out their main/natural. if only CCs are liftable it will slow terrans down a bit and take away their overly greedyness.
also it will make them thinking about positioning and defending runbys not only by lifting the base, pull workers to another base and wait for the army to arrive.
This would be golden. Then zerglings could actually do something against OCs. Killing the SCVs really doesn't cut it.
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On August 29 2013 15:24 hearters wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 20:28 Terence Chill wrote:
just make OCs unliftable like PFs. i never understood why terrans have the advantage of moving all over the map when mined out their main/natural. if only CCs are liftable it will slow terrans down a bit and take away their overly greedyness.
also it will make them thinking about positioning and defending runbys not only by lifting the base, pull workers to another base and wait for the army to arrive. This would be golden. Then zerglings could actually do something against OCs. Killing the SCVs really doesn't cut it.
You complain about asymmetric design now ? How about giving terran the ability to tech switch with one extra building?
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On August 29 2013 14:38 NarutO wrote:Blame Blizzard that Terran has no viable playstyle but biomine
sadly Z also only has 1 playstyle vs biomine and since biomine > ling bane muta...yeah GG 
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On August 29 2013 15:30 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 15:24 hearters wrote:On August 28 2013 20:28 Terence Chill wrote:
just make OCs unliftable like PFs. i never understood why terrans have the advantage of moving all over the map when mined out their main/natural. if only CCs are liftable it will slow terrans down a bit and take away their overly greedyness.
also it will make them thinking about positioning and defending runbys not only by lifting the base, pull workers to another base and wait for the army to arrive. This would be golden. Then zerglings could actually do something against OCs. Killing the SCVs really doesn't cut it. You complain about asymmetric design now ? How about giving terran the ability to tech switch with one extra building?
think you're confusing me with someone else
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On August 29 2013 12:35 epiphanes wrote:
WoL was a stellar achievement, and was very well-balanced in the end and a pleasure to watch. But now, they've had to introduce new units. They've actually removed some of the new units like Warhounds, etc., they took away Thors and put them back in but no one uses them, and this horribly exposes Blizzard. Hype up an expansion with new units, only to remove them? Completely bail out on the single-player campaign and turn it into some broken, easy cakewalk? When have we ever seen this before?
The plummeting intelligence level behind game design between WoL and HoTS it is shocking.
We need to focus not on the decisions ActiBlizzard makes, but on the people behind these products we consume. We need to judge their integrity and their competence. And we need to determine if its worth our time to continue consuming their products, even when we aren't satisfied -- because at that point we are only what they call "Blizzard fanbois".
I don't play much but I am, or was, an avid fan of watching Starcraft II streams & tournaments. The limitations on creativity and hearing the game announcers talk about every strategy and move as if its all some fragile, pre-meditated malady of a poker game makes Starcraft II no fun to watch anymore.
(I am no expert in game design and I do not play this game competitively. This is from a hardcore stream-watching consumer's point of view)
Ummm, were you paying attention to the last 6 months of WoL infestor broodlord? HotS is a VAST improvement. I'm not saying HotS is perfect. I think blinding cloud is broken all to shit. But I enjoyed the hell out of the season 2 finals compared to the last tournaments of WoL which were predictable and boring.
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On August 29 2013 15:55 hearters wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 15:30 painkilla wrote:On August 29 2013 15:24 hearters wrote:On August 28 2013 20:28 Terence Chill wrote:
just make OCs unliftable like PFs. i never understood why terrans have the advantage of moving all over the map when mined out their main/natural. if only CCs are liftable it will slow terrans down a bit and take away their overly greedyness.
also it will make them thinking about positioning and defending runbys not only by lifting the base, pull workers to another base and wait for the army to arrive. This would be golden. Then zerglings could actually do something against OCs. Killing the SCVs really doesn't cut it. You complain about asymmetric design now ? How about giving terran the ability to tech switch with one extra building? think you're confusing me with someone else
I don't think he is.
Can someone confirm that it is indeed 2013? And zergs are still whining about terran being able to lift buildings? Seriously?
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On August 29 2013 16:42 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 12:35 epiphanes wrote:
WoL was a stellar achievement, and was very well-balanced in the end and a pleasure to watch. But now, they've had to introduce new units. They've actually removed some of the new units like Warhounds, etc., they took away Thors and put them back in but no one uses them, and this horribly exposes Blizzard. Hype up an expansion with new units, only to remove them? Completely bail out on the single-player campaign and turn it into some broken, easy cakewalk? When have we ever seen this before?
The plummeting intelligence level behind game design between WoL and HoTS it is shocking.
We need to focus not on the decisions ActiBlizzard makes, but on the people behind these products we consume. We need to judge their integrity and their competence. And we need to determine if its worth our time to continue consuming their products, even when we aren't satisfied -- because at that point we are only what they call "Blizzard fanbois".
I don't play much but I am, or was, an avid fan of watching Starcraft II streams & tournaments. The limitations on creativity and hearing the game announcers talk about every strategy and move as if its all some fragile, pre-meditated malady of a poker game makes Starcraft II no fun to watch anymore.
(I am no expert in game design and I do not play this game competitively. This is from a hardcore stream-watching consumer's point of view) Ummm, were you paying attention to the last 6 months of WoL infestor broodlord? HotS is a VAST improvement. I'm not saying HotS is perfect. I think blinding cloud is broken all to shit. But I enjoyed the hell out of the season 2 finals compared to the last tournaments of WoL which were predictable and boring.
You can't satisfy everybody. Bio Mine vs LingBling waaaayyy better than Infestor Broodlord. I hope to see Ravens + Biomine vs infestor ultraling viper become the ultimate metagame.
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On August 29 2013 16:50 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 16:42 Kharnage wrote:On August 29 2013 12:35 epiphanes wrote:
WoL was a stellar achievement, and was very well-balanced in the end and a pleasure to watch. But now, they've had to introduce new units. They've actually removed some of the new units like Warhounds, etc., they took away Thors and put them back in but no one uses them, and this horribly exposes Blizzard. Hype up an expansion with new units, only to remove them? Completely bail out on the single-player campaign and turn it into some broken, easy cakewalk? When have we ever seen this before?
The plummeting intelligence level behind game design between WoL and HoTS it is shocking.
We need to focus not on the decisions ActiBlizzard makes, but on the people behind these products we consume. We need to judge their integrity and their competence. And we need to determine if its worth our time to continue consuming their products, even when we aren't satisfied -- because at that point we are only what they call "Blizzard fanbois".
I don't play much but I am, or was, an avid fan of watching Starcraft II streams & tournaments. The limitations on creativity and hearing the game announcers talk about every strategy and move as if its all some fragile, pre-meditated malady of a poker game makes Starcraft II no fun to watch anymore.
(I am no expert in game design and I do not play this game competitively. This is from a hardcore stream-watching consumer's point of view) Ummm, were you paying attention to the last 6 months of WoL infestor broodlord? HotS is a VAST improvement. I'm not saying HotS is perfect. I think blinding cloud is broken all to shit. But I enjoyed the hell out of the season 2 finals compared to the last tournaments of WoL which were predictable and boring. You can't satisfy everybody. Bio Mine vs LingBling waaaayyy better than Infestor Broodlord. I hope to see Ravens + Biomine vs infestor ultraling viper become the ultimate metagame.
Bio mine vs Mutaling is utterly boring to watch. The game of who makes first mistake, then its suddenly over. I'm completely disgusted how DK thinks 'starcraft should be' - everything needs to run around fast and die quickly, or the game is dull. He has no idea and no right to make this game, and ruined everything, everything sc community was building all these years. Today is really sad sad day in sc2's history. good bye Jangbi :'(
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On August 29 2013 16:42 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 12:35 epiphanes wrote:
WoL was a stellar achievement, and was very well-balanced in the end and a pleasure to watch. But now, they've had to introduce new units. They've actually removed some of the new units like Warhounds, etc., they took away Thors and put them back in but no one uses them, and this horribly exposes Blizzard. Hype up an expansion with new units, only to remove them? Completely bail out on the single-player campaign and turn it into some broken, easy cakewalk? When have we ever seen this before?
The plummeting intelligence level behind game design between WoL and HoTS it is shocking.
We need to focus not on the decisions ActiBlizzard makes, but on the people behind these products we consume. We need to judge their integrity and their competence. And we need to determine if its worth our time to continue consuming their products, even when we aren't satisfied -- because at that point we are only what they call "Blizzard fanbois".
I don't play much but I am, or was, an avid fan of watching Starcraft II streams & tournaments. The limitations on creativity and hearing the game announcers talk about every strategy and move as if its all some fragile, pre-meditated malady of a poker game makes Starcraft II no fun to watch anymore.
(I am no expert in game design and I do not play this game competitively. This is from a hardcore stream-watching consumer's point of view) Ummm, were you paying attention to the last 6 months of WoL infestor broodlord? HotS is a VAST improvement. I'm not saying HotS is perfect. I think blinding cloud is broken all to shit. But I enjoyed the hell out of the season 2 finals compared to the last tournaments of WoL which were predictable and boring.
I agree it is more entertaining than infestor/bl, but I do want at least a LITTLE variety. I liked it better pre-hellbat nerf.
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On August 28 2013 12:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 12:04 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans. I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z. http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=allAbove is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT. I didnt sort by race matchup. Just overall. Sorting by race matchup can yield interesting results because they would be classified as say a zerg sniper and go against all of the hard zergs and get a lower winrate (but yields a higher aligulac rating, because they gained more for a win and lost fewer for a loss. See: Roro who is at a 23% winrate but is #16. #17 wont necessarily have a lower than 23% winrate). Also, I believe that the default sort includes both WoL and HotS (unsure). Your 65% is his game winrate for HotS + WoL he is 59% for HotS (for games, he is 67% in matches which is what I was going by). I am just saying that statistically, the top rated terrans beat top rated zergs. Not necessarily an indication of balance though, just addressing NarutO's idea that there arent many top terrans with very high winrates when in reality most every high rated terran is doing very well vs zerg.
You're looking at ZvT rates from Zergs that you assign as "top".
If you want to look at good ZvT'ers, you have to include "snipers". They demonstrate a level of ZvT that is humanly possible, but excluded from your analysis because you dont include them as "top" Zergs.
Whatever the case, the ZvT top 15 and TvZ top 15 show such a stark constrast. Top 15 Zerg versus T is at 65% win-rate while top 15 Terran versus Z is at 58%.
This supports Narut0's view that it's only very few players who demonstrate dominating Terran versus Z.
Good players are going to be good and have insane win-rate. It's frankly unfair that all Terrans have to be nerfed against Z because a few players have insane win-rates against them - especially when there are Zergs with really good win-rate against Terrans but you brush them off as "snipers".
Fuck, same can be said about Innovation then. Currently, only his TvZ is unbeatable. His TvT was beaten by maru and his TvP was beaten by Rain. He should be considered more of a TvZ "sniper".
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On August 29 2013 10:11 TheRabidDeer wrote:
T macro is the easiest by far.
Nice joke. Try to execute a harass opening like Hellions/Banshee vs Z or a Marines/Mines/Medivacs pressure vs P while managing your buildings and add-ons; can't wait to see you floating 1k while microing your units, or lose all of them when you watch in your main to lift buildings. You can also try one of those "easy" parade pushes and see if you maintain the insanely demanding regularity of the macro production cycles over several minuts while staying on top of your micro.
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On August 29 2013 17:44 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 12:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:04 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans. I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z. http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=allAbove is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT. I didnt sort by race matchup. Just overall. Sorting by race matchup can yield interesting results because they would be classified as say a zerg sniper and go against all of the hard zergs and get a lower winrate (but yields a higher aligulac rating, because they gained more for a win and lost fewer for a loss. See: Roro who is at a 23% winrate but is #16. #17 wont necessarily have a lower than 23% winrate). Also, I believe that the default sort includes both WoL and HotS (unsure). Your 65% is his game winrate for HotS + WoL he is 59% for HotS (for games, he is 67% in matches which is what I was going by). I am just saying that statistically, the top rated terrans beat top rated zergs. Not necessarily an indication of balance though, just addressing NarutO's idea that there arent many top terrans with very high winrates when in reality most every high rated terran is doing very well vs zerg. You're looking at ZvT rates from Zergs that you assign as "top". If you want to look at good ZvT'ers, you have to include "snipers". They demonstrate a level of ZvT that is humanly possible, but excluded from your analysis because you dont include them as "top" Zergs. Whatever the case, the ZvT top 15 and TvZ top 15 show such a stark constrast. Top 15 Zerg versus T is at 65% win-rate while top 15 Terran versus Z is at 58%. This supports Narut0's view that it's only very few players who demonstrate dominating Terran versus Z. Good players are going to be good and have insane win-rate. It's frankly unfair that all Terrans have to be nerfed against Z because a few players have insane win-rates against them - especially when there are Zergs with really good win-rate against Terrans but you brush them off as "snipers". Fuck, same can be said about Innovation then. Currently, only his TvZ is amazing. His TvT was beaten by maru and his TvP was beaten by Rain. He should be considered more of a TvZ "sniper".
What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable.
What I'm trying to say is we shouldn't look into numbers. Better to discuss the game itself, take a particular game and analyze it to death.
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I feel like the terran require ridiculously more micro than protoss in the tvp matchup. There really isn't even any compensation or balance. If it's weak in one area, it should be strong in another to balance it out right?
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On August 29 2013 15:34 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 14:38 NarutO wrote:Blame Blizzard that Terran has no viable playstyle but biomine sadly Z also only has 1 playstyle vs biomine and since biomine > ling bane muta...yeah GG
Zerg also has roach/hydra which actually destroys biomine until you get spread out by drops.
I seriously think Roach/Hydra timing pushes will become a thing in TvZ soon.
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EPT
