• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:35
CEST 14:35
KST 21:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202533RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 939 users

Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 733

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 731 732 733 734 735 1266 Next
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-28 09:53:54
August 28 2013 09:47 GMT
#14641
On August 28 2013 18:43 aZealot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 18:33 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 18:13 aZealot wrote:
It never works? WOL was full of pros figuring out stuff (e.g. Protoss players figuring out the Stephano style Roach max) and the same in HOTS. The only thing is that given the packed tournament schedule, it actually works against players finding out solutions to problems and also experimenting with new strategies and styles (there is no time for "play" or for just "empty" time where ideas at the bottom of your brain bubble up to the surface when you are doing something else). As there is so much reason to win, there is a strong incentive to stick with successful builds or even just recycle old successful builds.


Full of pros figuring out? and you provide a less known strategy with short success history in EU/NA. Grats, you proved me very wrong. Don't you think pros, who train at least 10 hours a day for 6 months, couldn't have found better solution if it already existed? In fact 4M got even stronger the more pros learn how to utilize it.


Nope, just pointing out your hyperbole. "Never" is a strong word to use. You were obviously wrong.

As to the pros, that remains to be seen. I didn't know there was an expected timer on finding solutions. Is 4M imbalanced? Maybe. Is it badly imbalanced? I don't know. If Zergs need to suffer for another 3 - 6 months to make sure that Blizzard need to do more than give a slight overseer speed buff, so be it is my view. Doing nothing is in principle the right thing to do.


So you think leaving broodlord/infestors as it is until the Hots was wise thing to do. Do you even imagine how many terrans retired and lost prize money?
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-28 10:04:46
August 28 2013 10:03 GMT
#14642
On August 28 2013 18:47 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 18:43 aZealot wrote:
On August 28 2013 18:33 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 18:13 aZealot wrote:
It never works? WOL was full of pros figuring out stuff (e.g. Protoss players figuring out the Stephano style Roach max) and the same in HOTS. The only thing is that given the packed tournament schedule, it actually works against players finding out solutions to problems and also experimenting with new strategies and styles (there is no time for "play" or for just "empty" time where ideas at the bottom of your brain bubble up to the surface when you are doing something else). As there is so much reason to win, there is a strong incentive to stick with successful builds or even just recycle old successful builds.


Full of pros figuring out? and you provide a less known strategy with short success history in EU/NA. Grats, you proved me very wrong. Don't you think pros, who train at least 10 hours a day for 6 months, couldn't have found better solution if it already existed? In fact 4M got even stronger the more pros learn how to utilize it.


Nope, just pointing out your hyperbole. "Never" is a strong word to use. You were obviously wrong.

As to the pros, that remains to be seen. I didn't know there was an expected timer on finding solutions. Is 4M imbalanced? Maybe. Is it badly imbalanced? I don't know. If Zergs need to suffer for another 3 - 6 months to make sure that Blizzard need to do more than give a slight overseer speed buff, so be it is my view. Doing nothing is in principle the right thing to do.


So you think leaving broodlord/infestors as it is until the Hots was wise thing to do. Do you even imagine how many terrans retired and lost prize money?


It's ironic you bring that up because, arguably, the dominance of BL/Infestor was an unintended consequence of two Zerg buffs (OL speed buff and Queen buff). But, yeah. Looking back, leaving WOL alone (if that was the intention of the balance team - they may have decided to leave it with HOTS on the horizon) with mass BL/Infestor was the right thing to do. I'd rather Blizzard follow what, to me, are good principles (patch rarely and carefully) and get it wrong occasionally rather than follow the wrong principles (patch often and quickly) and get it wrong most of the time.

And, hey, I am a Protoss player. I know the pain of BL/Infestor. But, even then, towards the end of WOL you saw Protoss players refining solutions to the problem. And not just MS and Archon toilet (especially once Zerg players learned to split their BL and/or spammed IT to stop Archons getting into the toilet) but use of Templar and Carrier play, WP harass, Zealot runbys, DT backstabs etc which abused the immobility of BL/Infestor. Sure, on some maps (e.g. Daybreak) you'd lose once Zerg got to their "I win" composition. But, the fact was that Protoss players were developing their play against that dominant composition. I don't know if they would have been successful, as HOTS interfered, but it was interesting to see the process.
KT best KT ~ 2014
Bazik
Profile Joined September 2010
Portugal104 Posts
August 28 2013 10:11 GMT
#14643
They only lost the tournaments, the money was never theyr, anyway, off topic... The problem right now doesn't really seem to be the win rates( as a spectator ) it seems to be how simple and easy terran has it in terms of strategy, they build the same units all game and cheap units to boot, it makes them easier to play and less risky because they can play very scrappy/low eco games, not only that one of their main units (widow mine) as the added advantages of coming early in the game, being a very strong defensive unit(has AOE + invisible) not only that the unit that allows T being agressive is the first unit they get, which attacks both ground and air, has a very good attack rate, has huge growth potential since it has good attack speed making it a very powerful unit when having a upgrade advantage, all this coupled with the fact their cheap in minerals and free in gas allows them to get the upgrades soon making it very viable.

The reason i talked about all this is pretty simple, this strategy 4m is too simple to execute having a very stable and start, mid and late game, making it a bit too good. If this all units/upgrades involved in the build remain with same costs/upgrade time/build time this build will allways remain relevant, and since its so easy to get too it just makes the player never want to leave it making the games very stale for spectators.

My 2cents.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-28 10:16:08
August 28 2013 10:14 GMT
#14644
On August 28 2013 19:11 Bazik wrote:
They only lost the tournaments, the money was never theyr, anyway, off topic... The problem right now doesn't really seem to be the win rates( as a spectator ) it seems to be how simple and easy terran has it in terms of strategy, they build the same units all game and cheap units to boot, it makes them easier to play and less risky because they can play very scrappy/low eco games, not only that one of their main units (widow mine) as the added advantages of coming early in the game, being a very strong defensive unit(has AOE + invisible) not only that the unit that allows T being agressive is the first unit they get, which attacks both ground and air, has a very good attack rate, has huge growth potential since it has good attack speed making it a very powerful unit when having a upgrade advantage, all this coupled with the fact their cheap in minerals and free in gas allows them to get the upgrades soon making it very viable.

The reason i talked about all this is pretty simple, this strategy 4m is too simple to execute having a very stable and start, mid and late game, making it a bit too good. If this all units/upgrades involved in the build remain with same costs/upgrade time/build time this build will allways remain relevant, and since its so easy to get too it just makes the player never want to leave it making the games very stale for spectators.

My 2cents.


Too simple to execute = imbalanced
So do you want to say it is imbalanced?
Bazik
Profile Joined September 2010
Portugal104 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-28 10:34:44
August 28 2013 10:20 GMT
#14645
I mean to say it needs to have more risk involved. It's too safe right now.

Ok, instead of pointing only the problem i'll try and ellaborate on 2 possible solutions.

1st is the simple increase costs, making the build costing a little bit more to get/maintain might solve the problem. It has the added benefit of making it more skill based, if ur good with ur micro then u don't need to replace as many units hence not needing has much money.

2nd is the one that i don't like and was the one used in WoL, buff something to solve the problem. Examples that ppl might not remember that were needed and had awsome results was the removal of the high templar upgrade(kaydaran crystal or something) that gave them extra energy after building, the1 range added to roachs where they started being able to attack behind a forcefield this are a couple that i think were awsome for the game. Then you have the controversial ones, like giving the infestor AOE damage (at the start of WoL fungal didn't do dmg and instead lasted longer). Another one was when terran started needing a supply depot before rax. Remember GSL 2 when many of the TvZ where basically 5m games where the terran did a marine/SCV all in and the zerg either held and won or instantly loose.

saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
August 28 2013 10:29 GMT
#14646
On August 28 2013 19:03 aZealot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 18:47 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 18:43 aZealot wrote:
On August 28 2013 18:33 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 18:13 aZealot wrote:
It never works? WOL was full of pros figuring out stuff (e.g. Protoss players figuring out the Stephano style Roach max) and the same in HOTS. The only thing is that given the packed tournament schedule, it actually works against players finding out solutions to problems and also experimenting with new strategies and styles (there is no time for "play" or for just "empty" time where ideas at the bottom of your brain bubble up to the surface when you are doing something else). As there is so much reason to win, there is a strong incentive to stick with successful builds or even just recycle old successful builds.


Full of pros figuring out? and you provide a less known strategy with short success history in EU/NA. Grats, you proved me very wrong. Don't you think pros, who train at least 10 hours a day for 6 months, couldn't have found better solution if it already existed? In fact 4M got even stronger the more pros learn how to utilize it.


Nope, just pointing out your hyperbole. "Never" is a strong word to use. You were obviously wrong.

As to the pros, that remains to be seen. I didn't know there was an expected timer on finding solutions. Is 4M imbalanced? Maybe. Is it badly imbalanced? I don't know. If Zergs need to suffer for another 3 - 6 months to make sure that Blizzard need to do more than give a slight overseer speed buff, so be it is my view. Doing nothing is in principle the right thing to do.


So you think leaving broodlord/infestors as it is until the Hots was wise thing to do. Do you even imagine how many terrans retired and lost prize money?


It's ironic you bring that up because, arguably, the dominance of BL/Infestor was an unintended consequence of two Zerg buffs (OL speed buff and Queen buff). But, yeah. Looking back, leaving WOL alone (if that was the intention of the balance team - they may have decided to leave it with HOTS on the horizon) with mass BL/Infestor was the right thing to do. I'd rather Blizzard follow what, to me, are good principles (patch rarely and carefully) and get it wrong occasionally rather than follow the wrong principles (patch often and quickly) and get it wrong most of the time.

And, hey, I am a Protoss player. I know the pain of BL/Infestor. But, even then, towards the end of WOL you saw Protoss players refining solutions to the problem. And not just MS and Archon toilet (especially once Zerg players learned to split their BL and/or spammed IT to stop Archons getting into the toilet) but use of Templar and Carrier play, WP harass, Zealot runbys, DT backstabs etc which abused the immobility of BL/Infestor. Sure, on some maps (e.g. Daybreak) you'd lose once Zerg got to their "I win" composition. But, the fact was that Protoss players were developing their play against that dominant composition. I don't know if they would have been successful, as HOTS interfered, but it was interesting to see the process.


Well, not to be offensive, but you have a terrible viewpoint on this matter. First of all, sc2 was literally dying in the end of WoL, mostly because how stale it become. It makes game boring for spectators and for players. Secondly eventhough it was "getting figured out", I attribute it to zergs getting over-confident and not caring to micro their armies or patchzergs not managing to do basic micro, BL/Infestor still stayed strong in the right hands.
Lets look to other games:
LoL patches the game frequently and do major reworks of champions, eventhough the game doesn't look imbalanced. I think its partly because they want the game to be more dynamic and strategies being less stale. And In order to keep long-term players heated.
Dota 2. Eventhough, valve don't patch the game frequently, they still try to buff underused heroes and nerf overused ones. They too don't want the game to be stale.
See, both games don't wait to be getting figured out. They act. And to this day, we see it sworking since both games are popular. If Blizzard will use same approach I don't really think that they will make harsh changes which will turn the game upside down. But if they made ravens, carriers, nydus more viable, wouldn't you like it? or making TvZ more diverse than 4M vs everything?
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
August 28 2013 10:36 GMT
#14647
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
August 28 2013 10:51 GMT
#14648
On August 28 2013 16:18 Insoleet wrote:
I dont think TvZ is imbalanced. The 3 bases push of korean terrans is stupidly strong, yes, but its a matter of time before zergs figure it out.

Just look at Scarlett who lost only 3-2 to Bomber. If jaedong got destroyed 4-0 by Polt & Bomber, its mostly because ... he is terrible at ZvT.

This push has a huge weakness : there is no 4th OC. There cant be one.

So, zergs playing with mass muta are having a good winrate against terran. No hive, just mass mutalisks. Because mass muta can beat small groups of marines (15-20 marines) easily and cost-effectively, and they can kill OC very fast, they are the best answer to the never-ending push of the 3CC 4M build.

Thank you.
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
August 28 2013 10:54 GMT
#14649
On August 28 2013 19:36 NarutO wrote:
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.

Why?
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
August 28 2013 10:57 GMT
#14650
On August 28 2013 19:54 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 19:36 NarutO wrote:
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.

Why?


A Moba has 10-30 heros which even with the best balance design team in the world will never be able to be perfectly balanced in every single situation (same goes for fighting games). An RTS will have 1-4 races and although is still hard to balance, it's much easier. The issue comes in where balance then takes away variety in play and tunnels people to do certain things (for example SC2 where the entire Terran race is designed around Bio and it means every other option pales in comparison) and balance forces certain things (e.g. broodlord infestor or something like Magneto/Storm/Senti in MvC2 where they were by far the most powerful combo in the game).
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
August 28 2013 10:58 GMT
#14651
On August 28 2013 19:54 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 19:36 NarutO wrote:
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.

Why?


5 players to coordinate with each other. Various hero combinations yet only a few are played on the highest level. Only one map. Starcraft has various maps, 3 different races, various playstyles and unit combinations. You have so many variables that don't exist in MobAs. While there are other things in MobA you have to take into account, I dare to say there are less or less vital points.

So yeah... really uncomparable :/
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
August 28 2013 11:02 GMT
#14652
On August 28 2013 18:47 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 18:43 aZealot wrote:
On August 28 2013 18:33 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 18:13 aZealot wrote:
It never works? WOL was full of pros figuring out stuff (e.g. Protoss players figuring out the Stephano style Roach max) and the same in HOTS. The only thing is that given the packed tournament schedule, it actually works against players finding out solutions to problems and also experimenting with new strategies and styles (there is no time for "play" or for just "empty" time where ideas at the bottom of your brain bubble up to the surface when you are doing something else). As there is so much reason to win, there is a strong incentive to stick with successful builds or even just recycle old successful builds.


Full of pros figuring out? and you provide a less known strategy with short success history in EU/NA. Grats, you proved me very wrong. Don't you think pros, who train at least 10 hours a day for 6 months, couldn't have found better solution if it already existed? In fact 4M got even stronger the more pros learn how to utilize it.


Nope, just pointing out your hyperbole. "Never" is a strong word to use. You were obviously wrong.

As to the pros, that remains to be seen. I didn't know there was an expected timer on finding solutions. Is 4M imbalanced? Maybe. Is it badly imbalanced? I don't know. If Zergs need to suffer for another 3 - 6 months to make sure that Blizzard need to do more than give a slight overseer speed buff, so be it is my view. Doing nothing is in principle the right thing to do.


So you think leaving broodlord/infestors as it is until the Hots was wise thing to do. Do you even imagine how many terrans retired and lost prize money?

How can you lose something that is not yours?
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-28 11:07:27
August 28 2013 11:05 GMT
#14653
On August 28 2013 19:57 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 19:54 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:36 NarutO wrote:
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.

Why?


A Moba has 10-30 heros which even with the best balance design team in the world will never be able to be perfectly balanced in every single situation (same goes for fighting games). An RTS will have 1-4 races and although is still hard to balance, it's much easier. The issue comes in where balance then takes away variety in play and tunnels people to do certain things (for example SC2 where the entire Terran race is designed around Bio and it means every other option pales in comparison) and balance forces certain things (e.g. broodlord infestor or something like Magneto/Storm/Senti in MvC2 where they were by far the most powerful combo in the game).

Actually you are thinking this waay. to simplistic You should not see it as just races but all the units as well. Not to mention you can create almost all units more then once making it yet another layer of complexity. So we got 3 races each with around 20 units that can be any number at the same time. Now have fun with all the different maps and some spells and different situations.
Balancing an RTS sounds like a complete nightmare.
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
August 28 2013 11:07 GMT
#14654
On August 28 2013 19:58 NarutO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 19:54 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:36 NarutO wrote:
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.

Why?


5 players to coordinate with each other. Various hero combinations yet only a few are played on the highest level. Only one map. Starcraft has various maps, 3 different races, various playstyles and unit combinations. You have so many variables that don't exist in MobAs. While there are other things in MobA you have to take into account, I dare to say there are less or less vital points.

So yeah... really uncomparable :/


I don't think any of what you said supports your claim. I could say both sc2 and moba are video-games for mass esports, so they can use similar balancing approach.
- Phantom Lancer is too popular and making game unfun? nerf it. Timbersaw never used? buff it.
- Helbats are too popular and unfun? nerf it. Nydus is never used? buff it. Buff raven as well. And maybe we see something else than 4m vs muta/bane.

Whats wrong with this approach?
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
August 28 2013 11:10 GMT
#14655
On August 28 2013 20:07 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 19:58 NarutO wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:54 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:36 NarutO wrote:
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.

Why?


5 players to coordinate with each other. Various hero combinations yet only a few are played on the highest level. Only one map. Starcraft has various maps, 3 different races, various playstyles and unit combinations. You have so many variables that don't exist in MobAs. While there are other things in MobA you have to take into account, I dare to say there are less or less vital points.

So yeah... really uncomparable :/


I don't think any of what you said supports your claim. I could say both sc2 and moba are video-games for mass esports, so they can use similar balancing approach.
- Phantom Lancer is too popular and making game unfun? nerf it. Timbersaw never used? buff it.
- Helbats are too popular and unfun? nerf it. Nydus is never used? buff it. Buff raven as well. And maybe we see something else than 4m vs muta/bane.

Whats wrong with this approach?


A fun game can be balanced and a balanced game can be fun, but fun doesn't equal balance.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
August 28 2013 11:12 GMT
#14656
On August 28 2013 20:10 NarutO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 20:07 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:58 NarutO wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:54 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:36 NarutO wrote:
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.

Why?


5 players to coordinate with each other. Various hero combinations yet only a few are played on the highest level. Only one map. Starcraft has various maps, 3 different races, various playstyles and unit combinations. You have so many variables that don't exist in MobAs. While there are other things in MobA you have to take into account, I dare to say there are less or less vital points.

So yeah... really uncomparable :/


I don't think any of what you said supports your claim. I could say both sc2 and moba are video-games for mass esports, so they can use similar balancing approach.
- Phantom Lancer is too popular and making game unfun? nerf it. Timbersaw never used? buff it.
- Helbats are too popular and unfun? nerf it. Nydus is never used? buff it. Buff raven as well. And maybe we see something else than 4m vs muta/bane.

Whats wrong with this approach?


A fun game can be balanced and a balanced game can be fun, but fun doesn't equal balance.


Balance the game to be more fun. Thats what we need to do.
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
August 28 2013 11:15 GMT
#14657
On August 28 2013 20:12 saddaromma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 20:10 NarutO wrote:
On August 28 2013 20:07 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:58 NarutO wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:54 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:36 NarutO wrote:
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.

Why?


5 players to coordinate with each other. Various hero combinations yet only a few are played on the highest level. Only one map. Starcraft has various maps, 3 different races, various playstyles and unit combinations. You have so many variables that don't exist in MobAs. While there are other things in MobA you have to take into account, I dare to say there are less or less vital points.

So yeah... really uncomparable :/


I don't think any of what you said supports your claim. I could say both sc2 and moba are video-games for mass esports, so they can use similar balancing approach.
- Phantom Lancer is too popular and making game unfun? nerf it. Timbersaw never used? buff it.
- Helbats are too popular and unfun? nerf it. Nydus is never used? buff it. Buff raven as well. And maybe we see something else than 4m vs muta/bane.

Whats wrong with this approach?


A fun game can be balanced and a balanced game can be fun, but fun doesn't equal balance.


Balance the game to be more fun. Thats what we need to do.


Not really, no.
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
August 28 2013 11:19 GMT
#14658
On August 28 2013 20:15 NarutO wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 28 2013 20:12 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 20:10 NarutO wrote:
On August 28 2013 20:07 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:58 NarutO wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:54 saddaromma wrote:
On August 28 2013 19:36 NarutO wrote:
You cannot compare MobA to RTS in terms of balance, really you can't.

Why?


5 players to coordinate with each other. Various hero combinations yet only a few are played on the highest level. Only one map. Starcraft has various maps, 3 different races, various playstyles and unit combinations. You have so many variables that don't exist in MobAs. While there are other things in MobA you have to take into account, I dare to say there are less or less vital points.

So yeah... really uncomparable :/


I don't think any of what you said supports your claim. I could say both sc2 and moba are video-games for mass esports, so they can use similar balancing approach.
- Phantom Lancer is too popular and making game unfun? nerf it. Timbersaw never used? buff it.
- Helbats are too popular and unfun? nerf it. Nydus is never used? buff it. Buff raven as well. And maybe we see something else than 4m vs muta/bane.

Whats wrong with this approach?


A fun game can be balanced and a balanced game can be fun, but fun doesn't equal balance.


Balance the game to be more fun. Thats what we need to do.


Not really, no.

Oh yes. Or otherwise we'd have only one race.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
August 28 2013 11:28 GMT
#14659
On August 28 2013 16:18 Insoleet wrote:
I dont think TvZ is imbalanced. The 3 bases push of korean terrans is stupidly strong, yes, but its a matter of time before zergs figure it out.

Just look at Scarlett who lost only 3-2 to Bomber. If jaedong got destroyed 4-0 by Polt & Bomber, its mostly because ... he is terrible at ZvT.

This push has a huge weakness : there is no 4th OC. There cant be one.

So, zergs playing with mass muta are having a good winrate against terran. No hive, just mass mutalisks. Because mass muta can beat small groups of marines (15-20 marines) easily and cost-effectively, and they can kill OC very fast, they are the best answer to the never-ending push of the 3CC 4M build.

Jaedong lost against this build because he tried to go to hive while building a huge amount of mutalisks. But you cant.. It's not like WoL, Hive is not the answer anymore, mass muta then hive is way better.

Scarlett didn't win those games anymore than Bomber throwing them away.
1 game Bomber completely gave up on harassing or doing timings.
another Bomber had a huge lead after that hellion run bys and failing in his follow up pushes quite horribly.

And the no 4th OC is wrong, I clearly remember Ryung vs Nestea game, Ryung had a 4th.
Or just go back to Scarlett vs Bomber, bomber had a 4th OC morphing at 19 mins or game 3, bomber build a 4th in base or game number 4, bomber build 2 CCs at the same time while getting 15 marines at one cycle. game 5? also a 4th
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
Terence Chill
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany112 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-08-28 11:30:38
August 28 2013 11:28 GMT
#14660
just make OCs unliftable like PFs. i never understood why terrans have the advantage of moving all over the map when mined out their main/natural. if only CCs are liftable it will slow terrans down a bit and take away their overly greedyness.
also it will make them thinking about positioning and defending runbys not only by lifting the base, pull workers to another base and wait for the army to arrive.
Prev 1 731 732 733 734 735 1266 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Esports World Cup
10:00
2025 - Day 2
Clem vs SolarLIVE!
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
EWC_Arena6470
ComeBackTV 1990
TaKeTV 441
Hui .440
3DClanTV 273
Rex179
CranKy Ducklings148
EnkiAlexander 131
mcanning104
Reynor101
UpATreeSC47
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena6470
Hui .440
Rex 179
mcanning 104
Reynor 101
UpATreeSC 47
StarCraft: Brood War
Nal_rA 5225
Bisu 2059
Barracks 1937
Flash 963
Jaedong 887
BeSt 598
Stork 480
EffOrt 478
Mini 443
ggaemo 378
[ Show more ]
ToSsGirL 377
Soma 253
Last 227
Hyun 183
Soulkey 165
ZerO 145
Snow 133
Dewaltoss 111
Rush 104
JulyZerg 69
soO 57
TY 51
zelot 46
Sacsri 40
Sea.KH 34
sorry 32
sas.Sziky 31
scan(afreeca) 22
Sharp 20
Icarus 19
Movie 18
ivOry 8
Yoon 7
Bale 6
Terrorterran 6
Britney 0
Dota 2
XcaliburYe335
420jenkins132
Counter-Strike
x6flipin637
sgares393
allub132
edward51
Super Smash Bros
Westballz34
Other Games
singsing1869
B2W.Neo1636
crisheroes360
hiko345
oskar252
SortOf163
Fuzer 135
ArmadaUGS47
ZerO(Twitch)14
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH307
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV485
League of Legends
• Nemesis2045
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
21h 26m
TBD vs Zoun
TBD vs SHIN
TBD vs ShoWTimE
TBD vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 22h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.