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On August 28 2013 12:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 12:04 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans. I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z. http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=allAbove is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT. I didnt sort by race matchup. Just overall. Sorting by race matchup can yield interesting results because they would be classified as say a zerg sniper and go against all of the hard zergs and get a lower winrate (but yields a higher aligulac rating, because they gained more for a win and lost fewer for a loss. See: Roro who is at a 23% winrate but is #16. #17 wont necessarily have a lower than 23% winrate). Also, I believe that the default sort includes both WoL and HotS (unsure). Your 65% is his game winrate for HotS + WoL he is 59% for HotS (for games, he is 67% in matches which is what I was going by). I am just saying that statistically, the top rated terrans beat top rated zergs. Not necessarily an indication of balance though, just addressing NarutO's idea that there arent many top terrans with very high winrates when in reality most every high rated terran is doing very well vs zerg.
I will potentially be called out again as 'fixing' statistics into my favor, but I dare to say that you took a look at the simple winrate, without even bothering checking the matches. Ofcourse every Korean Terran that playes a ton of games outside of Korea is going to have a good winrate. Check out TaeJa ... count how many maps he won vs PHOG. Who the PHOG? (pun intended) The same can be done with nearly every other Terran. LucifroN / Happy I do not even consider high-level Terrans and I think it can be savely assumed they won't keep their winrates in Korea.
On the other hand, the Zergs you named or a lot of them mostly play in Korea. So... if you compare statistics, you better compare adjusting them or taking a proper look. While there are still Terrans win a 'better' winrate, they are nowhere near where you put them. MMA / Dream I already pointed out. You can check the others yourself, I checked it on my phone and I am not going to bother to do it again, you can either call me out to be biased now or believe me that the winrates are drastically different TvZ vs Korean and TvZ vs non-Korean
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On August 28 2013 14:16 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 00:31 NarutO wrote:
I didn't even read about your marine/stalker stuff, sorry to say. Every player that says that Terran is a lot easier on the lower-levels should simply try playing Terran. While minehits can be devastating, minehits on pro level are devastating because they are often times controlled / focused. Mines are volatile and unreliable, they don't magically connect to the biggest baneling clumb.
On a lower-level with proper macro, I dare to say that the fights generally favor Zerg, while macro overall generally does favor Terran. Muta/Ling/Bane is very mechanically demanding especially with injects and as lots of Zergs don't like to get a macrohatch, they bank minerals because they cannot support it. So problems are completely different from the problems SoulKey has.
I made suggestions about changing mines, yet you keep saying I am biased. I am not, I simply disagree that the mines to increase Terrans winrate on any level by a large margin, because I don't see it happening. You must have been away for a looooonnnng time because I explained it a lot of times, but I guess I can do it again for you. Oh and before you rant or whine again ... its NOT about balance ... its about DESIGN. Lets start with the FACTS: - Stalkers and Marines have roughly the same dps. - The Stalker model is much bigger than the Marine model. - The game allows for "maximized unit stacking" in an easy to use and automatic fashion. Take all of these things together and you have a "Marine clump" which has roughly 2-3 times the DPS PER AREA of a clump of Stalkers. This should tell everyone with basic math skills that the Marines will win a "straight up everyone stands still" fight every time ... and this is the reason why Forcefield and Blink HAVE TO exist. You basically must have good Forcefield and Blink skills to fight against Marines. Now at low numbers (3 Marines vs 1 Stalker) the problem does not exist, because the Stalker can kite the Marines and use his shield regeneration! Only at larger numbers (30 Marines vs 10 Stalkers) does the imbalance surface ... basically when the "critical number of Marines" has been reached, where you can kill a Stalker without any chance to react to it, move the injured Stalker away and use shield regen. This is the easy example to show why "unlimited unit selection" and "perfectly tight and forced unit stacking" are causing balance problems in the game and should be changed. Limited unit selection and forced unit spreading simply put a cap on the "dps per area" and that is a good/necessary thing. Lower "army dps per area" means less incoming dps to the defender and this gives the defender the time to actually micro stuff AND it forces the attacker to try to maximize his dps through micro. Two more opportunities for good players to be separated from the bad players compared to the "auto maximized dps" we have now which gives the defender no chance for micro. There simply is no point for "Roach burrow micro" and the Blink micro is necessary to survive instead of an optional skill gimmick which shows great skill.
D E S I G N A T E D BALANCE T H R E AD
Don't make the mistake to think its about DESIGN just because DESIGNATED has the word in it. If you want to talk about the flaws of Starcraft 2 and discuss design, go make a blog, host your own topic but don't try to talk about design when its about balance here, thank you!
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On August 28 2013 14:54 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 12:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:04 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans. I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z. http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=allAbove is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT. I didnt sort by race matchup. Just overall. Sorting by race matchup can yield interesting results because they would be classified as say a zerg sniper and go against all of the hard zergs and get a lower winrate (but yields a higher aligulac rating, because they gained more for a win and lost fewer for a loss. See: Roro who is at a 23% winrate but is #16. #17 wont necessarily have a lower than 23% winrate). Also, I believe that the default sort includes both WoL and HotS (unsure). Your 65% is his game winrate for HotS + WoL he is 59% for HotS (for games, he is 67% in matches which is what I was going by). I am just saying that statistically, the top rated terrans beat top rated zergs. Not necessarily an indication of balance though, just addressing NarutO's idea that there arent many top terrans with very high winrates when in reality most every high rated terran is doing very well vs zerg. I will potentially be called out again as 'fixing' statistics into my favor, but I dare to say that you took a look at the simple winrate, without even bothering checking the matches. Ofcourse every Korean Terran that playes a ton of games outside of Korea is going to have a good winrate. Check out TaeJa ... count how many maps he won vs PHOG. Who the PHOG? (pun intended) The same can be done with nearly every other Terran. LucifroN / Happy I do not even consider high-level Terrans and I think it can be savely assumed they won't keep their winrates in Korea. On the other hand, the Zergs you named or a lot of them mostly play in Korea. So... if you compare statistics, you better compare adjusting them or taking a proper look. While there are still Terrans win a 'better' winrate, they are nowhere near where you put them. MMA / Dream I already pointed out. You can check the others yourself, I checked it on my phone and I am not going to bother to do it again, you can either call me out to be biased now or believe me that the winrates are drastically different TvZ vs Korean and TvZ vs non-Korean
There aren't enough matches to filter out so many people. But still, just looking at a few of the top T's on aligulac outside of innovation
vs korean Z
taeja 73% (I dont see phog anywhere on his list, phog has only played against polt twice, no other terran more than once though)
MMA 71%
Lucifron is lower at 43%, but he has beaten hyun in matches 3 times (and lost to him 3 times). Hyun is one of the highest rated ZvT players and you dont even consider Lucifron to be a high level terran, yet he was able to beat him 3 times.
Polt is still 67% and hes going to college
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Major said that tvz was a little bit imbalanced for t.
I dunno if I agree with him, I strongly think that while zerg is currently struggling once hive timings are figured out things will probably even out.
Guess we'll see.
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I dont think TvZ is imbalanced. The 3 bases push of korean terrans is stupidly strong, yes, but its a matter of time before zergs figure it out.
Just look at Scarlett who lost only 3-2 to Bomber. If jaedong got destroyed 4-0 by Polt & Bomber, its mostly because ... he is terrible at ZvT.
This push has a huge weakness : there is no 4th OC. There cant be one.
So, zergs playing with mass muta are having a good winrate against terran. No hive, just mass mutalisks. Because mass muta can beat small groups of marines (15-20 marines) easily and cost-effectively, and they can kill OC very fast, they are the best answer to the never-ending push of the 3CC 4M build.
Jaedong lost against this build because he tried to go to hive while building a huge amount of mutalisks. But you cant.. It's not like WoL, Hive is not the answer anymore, mass muta then hive is way better.
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Hmm, Just played a TvT which went to late game, 6 base vs 6 base on belshire.
Both of us ended up with viking bc raven compositions but then my opponent goes pure widow mine and with the drilling claws upgrade it completely rapes my entire army as my bcs are far to slow to escape and unlike tempests they have insufficient range to able to abuse open sky areas to pick them off. In hind site i did not try and use pds to soak up the wm shots but does anyone know if pds even work on wm?
I think wm needs to be reworked so splash damage only affects bio units. That way it retains its early game and mid game uses but does not end up being a unit that can be used to rape even tier 3 armies.
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On August 28 2013 16:18 Insoleet wrote:
I dont think TvZ is imbalanced. The 3 bases push of korean terrans is stupidly strong, yes, but its a matter of time before zergs figure it out.
Just look at Scarlett who lost only 3-2 to Bomber. If jaedong got destroyed 4-0 by Polt & Bomber, its mostly because ... he is terrible at ZvT.
This push has a huge weakness : there is no 4th OC. There cant be one.
So, zergs playing with mass muta are having a good winrate against terran. No hive, just mass mutalisks. Because mass muta can beat small groups of marines (15-20 marines) easily and cost-effectively, and they can kill OC very fast, they are the best answer to the never-ending push of the 3CC 4M build.
Jaedong lost against this build because he tried to go to hive while building a huge amount of mutalisks. But you cant.. It's not like WoL, Hive is not the answer anymore, mass muta then hive is way better.
Bomber's TvZ is not his strong suit. Not to take anything away from Scarlett, she played fantastic. Also, the push can get a 4th OC, it usually comes after either 2-2 or 3-3 (or a good sized victory against Z army). Once 3-3 finishes and the 4th OC is up things tend to spiral a bit out of control moneywise (more minerals from 4th base + more mules, and not spending 600minerals on upgrades leading into more bases and production - this is really why 3-3 is dangerous)
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MMA is 67% vs Korean Zerg (18-9)
Dream is 65% vs Korean Zerg (17-9)
TaeJa is 62% vs Korean Zerg (18-11)
Polt is 61% vs Korean Zerg (27-17)
SuperNoVa is 59% vs Korean Zerg (19-13)
Maru is 59% vs Korean Zerg (22-15)
MKP is 57% vs Korean Zerg (16-12)
YoDa is 50% vs Korean Zerg (11-11)
MVP is 47% vs Korean Zerg (9-10)
LucifroN is 40% vs Korean Zerg (10-15)
And now look at INnoVation
INnoVation is 79% vs Korean Zerg (53-14)
Flash is 75% vs Korean Zerg (24-8)
Not only is it untrue that any top level Korean Terran comes close to INnoVation and Flash, but its also untrue that they have arbitary high winrates vs Zerg.
SoO is 79% vs Korean Terran (11-3)
Life is 68% vs Korean Terran (36-17)
CoCa is 67% vs Korean Terran (8-4)
Curious is 64% vs Korean Terran (16-9)
Hyun is 57% vs Korean Terran (51-38)
Scarlett is 57% vs Korean Terran (21-16)
+ Show Spoiler +Small note here, I did include HER statistics vs Koreans, yet in the statistics of the Koreans, she is not included.
Jaedong is 54% vs Korean Terran (19-16)
Symbol is 53% vs Korean Terran (20-18)
SoulKey is at 50% vs Korean Terran (23-23)
+ Show Spoiler +Small note here, 5-10 vs INnoVation - most winning Terran vs Zerg player there is, without him its at 58%, not amazing, but I feel that was noteworthy.
viOlet is 50% vs Korean Terran (11-11)
DRG is 44% vs Korean Terran (12-15)
Filters are TvZ / ZvZ vs KOREAN in HEART OF THE SWARM and in MAPS. You put down statistics and winrates for MATCHES (bo3/bo5/bo7) which does make all maps won from Zerg in a bo3 / 5 / 7 not matter in your winrates, as it only sees the overall winner. The map wins cannot be ignored for determining balance. So overall, I wouldn't dare to say that
a) all top Terrans have good winrates vs Zerg
b) any Terran is remotely close to INnoVation and Flash
Yes, generally speaking the top Terrans seem to have a higher winrate compared to some Zergs, but it seems to be very volatile in the first place and additionally it seems like there are various factors that do influence those statistics. For example Maru getting SoulKey in the OSL I am pretty sure would have pushed winrates for Zerg as SoulKey would have won (I believe) and Symbol potentially would have gotten either another match up or potentailly INnoVaiton  haha.
Anyways, I hope you can understand my point. While I am all up for a change, simply putting to say Korean Terrans dominate and in a way its phrased here is just wrong.
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I prefer Match winrate because that is what counts in tournaments. People prepare for a BO3/5/7 so they may not prepare a fully solid build for a map they know they are weaker on (ie: Bomber sucks on whirlwind, so he may opt to prepare more for other maps). I know what you mean that flash/innovation are really good at TvZ, I never disputed that. But do you not think that Polt, MMA, or Taeja are getting much closer to Innovations level of TvZ biomine? Certainly closer to flash. I mean, innovation perfected it early, now other players are copying and catching up to his style.
PS: If you remove soulkey vs innovation, innovations winrate goes up too (to almost 83%)
You should not exclude innovation/flash in data because they are "outliers", remember everybody is improving and people will trend towards the best.
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I did not excluse them. I merely stated that they are the only Terrans that have 'sickening' (if you are Zerg) winrate. But that does happen and did happen in the way more balanced Broodwar. Savior ruled supreme against Terran when the maps and matchup seemed to be Terran favored, yet he smacked down everyone. (TLPD God of the Battlefield as reference)
We are talking about balance and when talking about balance, having all data is important. If there are 100 matches and Terran won all of them 4-3, you will simply ignore 300 map wins for Zerg making the Terran winrate 100% when in reality every match was nailbitingly close. I do agree that Terrans will get better and are getting better, but to ultimatively judge a player you would need to see a comparsion. Scarlett vs INnoVation for example, I do not believe she would stand much of a chance. On the other hand I do not believe TaeJa would stand a big chance in a boX vs SoulKey either.
so yes, as I said, I am all for changes and adjusting the game, yet I disagree that all Terrans are simply elevatored a level above they could potentailly play due to biomine. Someone here put it simply and said Terrans that don't even belong in masters are masters due to biomine, thats wrong and as long as that mindless-Terran bashing doesn't stop. I will stand the ground for Terran here. I made suggestions and I pointed out flaws in suggestions being made. Now I was simply putting down statistics and I will probably wait for someone to cherrypick why those statistics are not viable (not directed towards you).
so yes I think overall we share the same point of view besides those match/map winrates!
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On August 28 2013 16:28 NarutO wrote:+ Show Spoiler +MMA is 67% vs Korean Zerg (18-9) Dream is 65% vs Korean Zerg (17-9) TaeJa is 62% vs Korean Zerg (18-11) Polt is 61% vs Korean Zerg (27-17) SuperNoVa is 59% vs Korean Zerg (19-13) Maru is 59% vs Korean Zerg (22-15) MKP is 57% vs Korean Zerg (16-12) YoDa is 50% vs Korean Zerg (11-11) MVP is 47% vs Korean Zerg (9-10) LucifroN is 40% vs Korean Zerg (10-15) And now look at INnoVation INnoVation is 79% vs Korean Zerg (53-14) Flash is 75% vs Korean Zerg (24-8) Not only is it untrue that any top level Korean Terran comes close to INnoVation and Flash, but its also untrue that they have arbitary high winrates vs Zerg. SoO is 79% vs Korean Terran (11-3) Life is 68% vs Korean Terran (36-17) CoCa is 67% vs Korean Terran (8-4) Curious is 64% vs Korean Terran (16-9) Hyun is 57% vs Korean Terran (51-38) Scarlett is 57% vs Korean Terran (21-16) + Show Spoiler +Small note here, I did include HER statistics vs Koreans, yet in the statistics of the Koreans, she is not included. Jaedong is 54% vs Korean Terran (19-16) Symbol is 53% vs Korean Terran (20-18) SoulKey is at 50% vs Korean Terran (23-23) + Show Spoiler +Small note here, 5-10 vs INnoVation - most winning Terran vs Zerg player there is, without him its at 58%, not amazing, but I feel that was noteworthy. viOlet is 50% vs Korean Terran (11-11) DRG is 44% vs Korean Terran (12-15) Filters are TvZ / ZvZ vs KOREAN in HEART OF THE SWARM and in MAPS. You put down statistics and winrates for MATCHES (bo3/bo5/bo7) which does make all maps won from Zerg in a bo3 / 5 / 7 not matter in your winrates, as it only sees the overall winner. The map wins cannot be ignored for determining balance. So overall, I wouldn't dare to say that a) all top Terrans have good winrates vs Zerg b) any Terran is remotely close to INnoVation and Flash Yes, generally speaking the top Terrans seem to have a higher winrate compared to some Zergs, but it seems to be very volatile in the first place and additionally it seems like there are various factors that do influence those statistics. For example Maru getting SoulKey in the OSL I am pretty sure would have pushed winrates for Zerg as SoulKey would have won (I believe) and Symbol potentially would have gotten either another match up or potentailly INnoVaiton haha. Anyways, I hope you can understand my point. While I am all up for a change, simply putting to say Korean Terrans dominate and in a way its phrased here is just wrong.
Statistics are big liars.
Its like champion Zac in League of Legends, he has terrible winrate, however, considered OP by many. And got nerfed several times. We should look into specific games and strategies. If highly skilled terran can utilize certain strategies which are difficult to counter, and rest of terrans can't do it, therefore restoring some balance in the matchup, that doesn't mean its balanced or 'okay'.
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I don't play the game anymore, and only watches the tournaments on weekends and this is what I observed/feel.
TVZ.
The hellbat nerfs actually benefitted Terran play since its inception. Terrans now don't rely on dropping hellbats. They just straight up 3 ball parade push. When playing with hellbat drops, Terrans had to invest in it. Not anymore, straight up MMMM to overrun Zerg. The games of Jaedong vs Polt or Jaedong vs Bomber or Innovation vs Soulkey, show that there is little zerg can do to beat a focused terran style to play 3 base parade push. Even when the Zerg is playing out of his skin. The only option seems to be roach bane all-in to catch Terran before the parade push starts. I think Zergs now feels the helplessness, just like during the Immortal-Sentry Soultrain. You know its coming, but you can't stop it. And its easier to execute than Immortal-Sentry, you need absurd micro skills like Parting.
TVP
Protoss are winning either by all-ining. Or Outplaying the terran (Rain) completely. When up against a good Terran who scouts out the aggression(by scanning) and putting down 2 bunkers, the all-ining protoss have no chance. Rain vs Taeja was closer than the 3-0 suggest and Taeja did play brilliantly, as did Rain.
Contrary, I do not think widow mines are the problem in TVZ. Its frustrating to watch games where 2 WM takes out 15 banes. But that is not the root of the problem I think. The problem is marines. A macro game is about resources, and marines are too cost effective. And with medivacs, their cost effectiveness skyrocket. Marines trade too well. And this is what the top terrans are doing. Forcing trades from start to finish. After every fight/trade, the terran gets a little ahead.
In TVP. Gateway units trade even worse against marines. Feels like the protoss player is on a timer. So many games, they see the Medviac/Stim/2-2 timing coming and are helpless to defend against it. Struggle to get storm out in time, or enough collosus. For protoss timing push/all-in, all the Terran need to do is to spot it(scans?) put 2 bunkers down/ switch production from medivacs to Vikings(Terran already have the infrastructure up). It only gets trickier if its a templar switch, but its so common a switch, I find it crazy why some Terrans are caught unprepared.
As a pure spectator, I find ZVP, much more enjoyable to watch or TVT is great as well, Innovation vs Taeja comes to mind or Fantasy vs Flash game. TVP and TVZ games feels extremely stacked in favour of terran.
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As a pure spectator, I find ZVP, much more enjoyable to watch or TVT is great as well, Innovation vs Taeja comes to mind or Fantasy vs Flash game. TVP and TVZ games feels extremely stacked in favour of terran.
From your analysis I'd say that you are not really looking at who wins, but just at who attacks. Because you have filtered out the two back-and-forth matchups ZvP and TvT as enjoyable, while (in my opinion) TvP and TvZ aren't really broken in Terrans favor. It's just that - in macrogames - Terran is usually the attacker for a long, long time, while P/Z is the defender and thus it looks onesided, yet it isn't in terms of balance.
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From your post we can all tell you don't play the game so .. yeah, I will not really comment on it. Regarding saddaromma , obviously its you who beats down my effort and time I took with nearly a one-liner. I guarantee if statistics I put down would somehow look terrifying you would immediately jump and say 'BASED ON THOSE, TERRAN IS IMBA'.
Obviously not every loss or win is matter of balance, but if allins are viable to beat down Terran in the current metagame and work, Zergs do hold their chance to win. Ofcourse Blizzard wants all races to have equal chances to win at any given point, but things you want and things that happen are different. If there are basically 2 Terrans that can execute a strategy and consistenly win with it it does not need to be changed by Blizzard, but need to be given time. SoulKey got a lot closer in his last game and on the NewKirk game for example. And as I mentioned and you can see from the statistics, it doesn't seem like all the Terrans can simply copy the BUILD and be successful with it. It seems like INnoVation and Flash have something that the others don't have (near perfection in terms of mechanics). If Blizzard would listen to people like you, Broodwar would have gotten a patch every new map-change, hell they would have banned carriers after Katrina was introduced.
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On August 28 2013 17:44 NarutO wrote:
From your post we can all tell you don't play the game so .. yeah, I will not really comment on it. Regarding saddaromma , obviously its you who beats down my effort and time I took with nearly a one-liner. I guarantee if statistics I put down would somehow look terrifying you would immediately jump and say 'BASED ON THOSE, TERRAN IS IMBA'.
Obviously not every loss or win is matter of balance, but if allins are viable to beat down Terran in the current metagame and work, Zergs do hold their chance to win. Ofcourse Blizzard wants all races to have equal chances to win at any given point, but things you want and things that happen are different. If there are basically 2 Terrans that can execute a strategy and consistenly win with it it does not need to be changed by Blizzard, but need to be given time. SoulKey got a lot closer in his last game and on the NewKirk game for example. And as I mentioned and you can see from the statistics, it doesn't seem like all the Terrans can simply copy the BUILD and be successful with it. It seems like INnoVation and Flash have something that the others don't have (near perfection in terms of mechanics). If Blizzard would listen to people like you, Broodwar would have gotten a patch every new map-change, hell they would have banned carriers after Katrina was introduced.
Don't put words in my mouth.
I respect your efforts and I've stopped posting in this thread while ago, since there is no point arguing with you. You still keep on telling how godly Flash and Innovation are, disregarding the possibility TvZ might be imbalanced, even after DK admitted it. Its ok if you use some in-game situations to describe why you think this or that, but when you provide statistics I feel very much obliged to comment it. Because DK was heavily using statistics in WoL and it gave us broodlord/infestors - SC2 cancer.
And oh so never dying argument - give it some time, pros will figure it out. guess what, it never works.
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It never works? WOL was full of pros figuring out stuff (e.g. Protoss players figuring out the Stephano style Roach max) and the same in HOTS. The only thing is that given the packed tournament schedule, it actually works against players finding out solutions to problems and also experimenting with new strategies and styles (there is no time for "play" or for just "empty" time where ideas at the bottom of your brain bubble up to the surface when you are doing something else). As there is so much reason to win, there is a strong incentive to stick with successful builds or even just recycle old successful builds.
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I keep pointing it out because they are the two outstanding TvZ players it seems. You say its about Terran and Zerg , while what I provided shows that the Terrans are not or seemingly not on Flash and INnoVations level. I really fail to see how you cannot realize the different between 80% and 60% winrate in a match up. Did it never cross your mind that those are outstanding if they float above all others?
I did cross my mind that there is a problem in the match up, but I don't think its 10-15% change in the winrates we are talking about. Personally if biomine is advantageous I believe we are speaking about 3-4% (yes yes, made up but I can merely guess, so can you). All people act like the Terrans I stated have 65% winrate when they usually would have 50% at best. Let me tell you that good / outstanding players ALWAYS had outstanding winrates no matter the matchup. TvP is commonly known as problematic match up for Terran as well (or at least as many people would agree to that as to the Terran vs Zerg match up) yet INnoVation seems to have a high winrate there as well.
Against all odds Rain did slaughter Terrans in Wings of Liberty, being outstanding in his field, when generally speaking Terran was favored over Protoss or at least advantageous even though not by a huge margin. Now you smack down all my efforts based on what exactly? I made 'claims' or suggestions backed up by evidence, why I believe those are outstanding and I also made suggestions for changes regarding the match up yet all I can see from you is contra without contributing anyhting.
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On August 28 2013 18:13 aZealot wrote:
It never works? WOL was full of pros figuring out stuff (e.g. Protoss players figuring out the Stephano style Roach max) and the same in HOTS. The only thing is that given the packed tournament schedule, it actually works against players finding out solutions to problems and also experimenting with new strategies and styles (there is no time for "play" or for just "empty" time where ideas at the bottom of your brain bubble up to the surface when you are doing something else). As there is so much reason to win, there is a strong incentive to stick with successful builds or even just recycle old successful builds.
Full of pros figuring out? and you provide a less known strategy with short success history in EU/NA. Grats, you proved me very wrong. Don't you think pros, who train at least 10 hours a day for 6 months, couldn't have found better solution if it already existed? In fact 4M got even stronger the more pros learn how to utilize it.
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On August 28 2013 18:33 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 18:13 aZealot wrote:
It never works? WOL was full of pros figuring out stuff (e.g. Protoss players figuring out the Stephano style Roach max) and the same in HOTS. The only thing is that given the packed tournament schedule, it actually works against players finding out solutions to problems and also experimenting with new strategies and styles (there is no time for "play" or for just "empty" time where ideas at the bottom of your brain bubble up to the surface when you are doing something else). As there is so much reason to win, there is a strong incentive to stick with successful builds or even just recycle old successful builds. Full of pros figuring out? and you provide a less known strategy with short success history in EU/NA. Grats, you proved me very wrong. Don't you think pros, who train at least 10 hours a day for 6 months, couldn't have found better solution if it already existed? In fact 4M got even stronger the more pros learn how to utilize it.
Nope, just pointing out your hyperbole. "Never" is a strong word to use. You were obviously wrong.
As to the pros, that remains to be seen. I didn't know there was an expected timer on finding solutions. Is 4M imbalanced? Maybe. Is it badly imbalanced? I don't know. If Zergs need to suffer for another 3 - 6 months to make sure that Blizzard need to do more than give a slight overseer speed buff, so be it is my view. Doing nothing is in principle the right thing to do.
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On August 28 2013 18:16 NarutO wrote:
I keep pointing it out because they are the two outstanding TvZ players it seems. You say its about Terran and Zerg , while what I provided shows that the Terrans are not or seemingly not on Flash and INnoVations level. I really fail to see how you cannot realize the different between 80% and 60% winrate in a match up. Did it never cross your mind that those are outstanding if they float above all others?
I did cross my mind that there is a problem in the match up, but I don't think its 10-15% change in the winrates we are talking about. Personally if biomine is advantageous I believe we are speaking about 3-4% (yes yes, made up but I can merely guess, so can you). All people act like the Terrans I stated have 65% winrate when they usually would have 50% at best. Let me tell you that good / outstanding players ALWAYS had outstanding winrates no matter the matchup. TvP is commonly known as problematic match up for Terran as well (or at least as many people would agree to that as to the Terran vs Zerg match up) yet INnoVation seems to have a high winrate there as well.
Against all odds Rain did slaughter Terrans in Wings of Liberty, being outstanding in his field, when generally speaking Terran was favored over Protoss or at least advantageous even though not by a huge margin. Now you smack down all my efforts based on what exactly? I made 'claims' or suggestions backed up by evidence, why I believe those are outstanding and I also made suggestions for changes regarding the match up yet all I can see from you is contra without contributing anyhting.
I consider both Innovation and Soulkey outstanding players. Its very apparent when I watch them play, how they dominate other players, always being steps ahead. However when they meet each other, the later the game goes the less room Soulkey has to do anything vs 4M. Thats why I think its op. You consider Innovation is just a better player and look into statistics. I look into games and see that SoulKey didn't do any significant mistakes but lost pretty much one-sidedly.
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EPT
