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On August 28 2013 01:20 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 00:31 NarutO wrote:
I didn't even read about your marine/stalker stuff, sorry to say. Every player that says that Terran is a lot easier on the lower-levels should simply try playing Terran. While minehits can be devastating, minehits on pro level are devastating because they are often times controlled / focused. Mines are volatile and unreliable, they don't magically connect to the biggest baneling clumb.
On a lower-level with proper macro, I dare to say that the fights generally favor Zerg, while macro overall generally does favor Terran. Muta/Ling/Bane is very mechanically demanding especially with injects and as lots of Zergs don't like to get a macrohatch, they bank minerals because they cannot support it. So problems are completely different from the problems SoulKey has.
I made suggestions about changing mines, yet you keep saying I am biased. I am not, I simply disagree that the mines to increase Terrans winrate on any level by a large margin, because I don't see it happening. The fact that you don't see that Widow Mine increases terrans winrate on the highest level could come from the fact that you are biased. There was a time where you said it was only Innovation and Flash that could perform this play style and make it looked imbalanced, but it wasn't as it was just these two players being way superior to any players they faced. The fact is that more and more tip top terrans from korea are getting close to figuring how to play biomines almost as good as Innovation, while not a single solution from zerg has ever been found, because I feel pretty safe now to say that there is none. I find it crazy to hear from some player saying some stuff like "well, it's easy, you just have to cut 3 mutas and transition to Hive, pfffff stupids zerg", as no one, from Soulkey to Jaedong, with all the coach they have and the 12 hours practice per day, has never thought/tested that? To be honest I don't care at all if there is just a tiny little patch to WM if that's all it's needed to resolve this balance issue, even if will still sucks as much against bio mines as I do right know, I just want to see a nice, balanced match up again because ZvT usually sucks to watch right now.
Name them please.
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On August 28 2013 01:20 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 00:31 NarutO wrote:
I didn't even read about your marine/stalker stuff, sorry to say. Every player that says that Terran is a lot easier on the lower-levels should simply try playing Terran. While minehits can be devastating, minehits on pro level are devastating because they are often times controlled / focused. Mines are volatile and unreliable, they don't magically connect to the biggest baneling clumb.
On a lower-level with proper macro, I dare to say that the fights generally favor Zerg, while macro overall generally does favor Terran. Muta/Ling/Bane is very mechanically demanding especially with injects and as lots of Zergs don't like to get a macrohatch, they bank minerals because they cannot support it. So problems are completely different from the problems SoulKey has.
I made suggestions about changing mines, yet you keep saying I am biased. I am not, I simply disagree that the mines to increase Terrans winrate on any level by a large margin, because I don't see it happening. The fact that you don't see that Widow Mine increases terrans winrate on the highest level could come from the fact that you are biased. There was a time where you said it was only Innovation and Flash that could perform this play style and make it looked imbalanced, but it wasn't as it was just these two players being way superior to any players they faced. The fact is that more and more tip top terrans from korea are getting close to figuring how to play biomines almost as good as Innovation, while not a single solution from zerg has ever been found, because I feel pretty safe now to say that there is none. I find it crazy to hear from some player saying some stuff like "well, it's easy, you just have to cut 3 mutas and transition to Hive, pfffff stupids zerg", as no one, from Soulkey to Jaedong, with all the coach they have and the 12 hours practice per day, has never thought/tested that? To be honest I don't care at all if there is just a tiny little patch to WM if that's all it's needed to resolve this balance issue, even if will still sucks as much against bio mines as I do right know, I just want to see a nice, balanced match up again because ZvT usually sucks to watch right now.
First of all, I said by a large margin, secondly I suggest you watch the game of INnoVation vs SoulKey on derelict watcher to see that there is an even game between Terran and Zerg possible. Yes INnoVation won that game, but it could have went either way. Also I completely disagree with the statement you wrote down. How the hell is any Terran remotely close to INnoVations TvZ?
Can you please elaborate and point out lower-level 'top' Terrans that begin to rise especially in TvZ? I am not currently seeing a huge trend and I am especially not seeing how ANY TERRAN is REMOTELY close to INnoVations TvZ which is outstanding.
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To make a last post about mmr and winrates.
- Blizzard first said in 2010/11 (dont remember exactly) that they clean out race statistics because the mmr is falsifying it.
- The MMR is to serve best the individuals strength and weaknesses.
- The MMR therefore must be as flexible as possible.
This all strongly indicates that within the actual MMR there is a factor that allows little variations against each race. It does not only sound logical but also makes sense to me. I have nothing to add to this issue anymore.
On August 28 2013 01:09 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 01:06 Faust852 wrote:
Quite an easy way to fly when proved wrong... Fight-or-flight response, can never go wrong with survival instinct!
this applies to you, not to me.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
I will still dare to say that the higher skill level goes, the stronger balance in TvZ shifts in T's favour. Also, please, do not bring up this game between Inno and Soulkey@Derelict it was won by Inno at 10 minute mark with 20 or so minute death animation.
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On August 28 2013 01:57 lolfail9001 wrote:
I will still dare to say that the higher skill level goes, the stronger balance in TvZ shifts in T's favour. Also, please, do not bring up this game between Inno and Soulkey@Derelict it was won by Inno at 10 minute mark with 20 or so minute death animation.
Not at all, Bogus had no third so he wasn't massively ahead after he defended the Roach/Baneling bust.
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On August 28 2013 01:29 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 01:20 Vanadiel wrote:On August 28 2013 00:31 NarutO wrote:
I didn't even read about your marine/stalker stuff, sorry to say. Every player that says that Terran is a lot easier on the lower-levels should simply try playing Terran. While minehits can be devastating, minehits on pro level are devastating because they are often times controlled / focused. Mines are volatile and unreliable, they don't magically connect to the biggest baneling clumb.
On a lower-level with proper macro, I dare to say that the fights generally favor Zerg, while macro overall generally does favor Terran. Muta/Ling/Bane is very mechanically demanding especially with injects and as lots of Zergs don't like to get a macrohatch, they bank minerals because they cannot support it. So problems are completely different from the problems SoulKey has.
I made suggestions about changing mines, yet you keep saying I am biased. I am not, I simply disagree that the mines to increase Terrans winrate on any level by a large margin, because I don't see it happening. The fact that you don't see that Widow Mine increases terrans winrate on the highest level could come from the fact that you are biased. There was a time where you said it was only Innovation and Flash that could perform this play style and make it looked imbalanced, but it wasn't as it was just these two players being way superior to any players they faced. The fact is that more and more tip top terrans from korea are getting close to figuring how to play biomines almost as good as Innovation, while not a single solution from zerg has ever been found, because I feel pretty safe now to say that there is none. I find it crazy to hear from some player saying some stuff like "well, it's easy, you just have to cut 3 mutas and transition to Hive, pfffff stupids zerg", as no one, from Soulkey to Jaedong, with all the coach they have and the 12 hours practice per day, has never thought/tested that? To be honest I don't care at all if there is just a tiny little patch to WM if that's all it's needed to resolve this balance issue, even if will still sucks as much against bio mines as I do right know, I just want to see a nice, balanced match up again because ZvT usually sucks to watch right now. First of all, I said by a large margin, secondly I suggest you watch the game of INnoVation vs SoulKey on derelict watcher to see that there is an even game between Terran and Zerg possible. Yes INnoVation won that game, but it could have went either way. Also I completely disagree with the statement you wrote down. How the hell is any Terran remotely close to INnoVations TvZ?
Oh yes, all SK vs Innovation looked like they could have went either way and really close, but in the end since the GSL final it's like 6-0 or 7-0, they all goes toward Innovation no matter how close to perfection Soulkey could play. Not saying that Innovation isn't playing as good as Soulkey, but in a clash where they both play close to perfection, it should have reflected in the score between the two players.
Can you please elaborate and point out lower-level 'top' Terrans that begin to rise especially in TvZ? I am not currently seeing a huge trend and I am especially not seeing how ANY TERRAN is REMOTELY close to INnoVations TvZ which is outstanding.
What i said is that they are getting closer and closer to Innovation playstyle and sucess in the TvZ match up with biomines, not that they are as good as he is. But even if they don't play as well as he is, or I should say with less consistency, any terran in WCS korea including challenger league is a huge threat for all zerg. I'm not saying the likes of Polt, Taeja or even lesser known player such as Dream/supernova are as a good as Innovation, but I'll put them favorite against any zerg in the world in a standard macro game.
Where was Soulkey, arguably the best zerg in the world, in WCS final by the way? Eliminated in TvZ by Innovation then Supernova. Who would be the second best zerg, maybe Jaedong? Well, he is 1-9 in his last 10 ZvT. Symbol? Zip, 3-1 by Maru, I guess you can only do a finite number of all in to play ZvT. Older GSL champion? Life, Roro are out of the GSL. Leenock? He's out too.
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Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 28 2013 02:02 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 01:57 lolfail9001 wrote:
I will still dare to say that the higher skill level goes, the stronger balance in TvZ shifts in T's favour. Also, please, do not bring up this game between Inno and Soulkey@Derelict it was won by Inno at 10 minute mark with 20 or so minute death animation. Not at all, Bogus had no third so he wasn't massively ahead after he defended the Roach/Baneling bust.
But he was ahead just enough, so to to even remotely even the game out he had to completely botch engagement (for a reason i never whine about Widow mines: he did not micro his mines at all and did not even split Innovation level of well) + lose his 4th to 6 lings, also, @Rabiator: i understand your idea that trying to kill SCVs in TvZ is wrong thing to do (Soulkey vs innovation at whirlwind with 49 killed scvs... but at what cost!) but actually in current state of meta there are about 1 thing to do in each non-mirror matchup. in tvz it is bio-mine against muta ling bane into (should it get there without zerg falling massively behind) infestor ultra broodlord . In tvp it is WoL bio (or if we talk about ForGG marauder hellbat viking) against deathball with addition of MSC and moar early game headache for terrans. And only real match-up with kind of variety as it stands right now now zvp, and that does not make it any better.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period?
@Soulkey vs SuperNova i would not dare to use it, since AFAIK SuperNova used to be woongjin's b-teamer in bw and afaik he is practice partner for some woongjin's players (maybe even Soulkey too), so i treated it like Soulkey vs sOs at that GSL. Also, SuperNova's loss was with mech, right?
Next, Life vs Bomber i would not take seriously for the same reason, since to my memory they could just treat it as practice match, with the grain of money.
Another thing: if you disregard Dream's TvZ winrate (with 2-0 of Roro on vacation) then please tell me which terrans soO played in HotS for his winrate
Now to the 'what do you do question': I have only 1 answer: I have no clue. It just does not seem any close to obvious where exactly terran is OP in TvZ or zerg is UP in ir. And i may only guess that it is Terran's design, with units scaling up and up with skill level.
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As I already mentioned, there is nothing being said about the issue that has been discussed here in this thread. So would you please be so kind to quote the passage that you think is relevant? You probably can't because there is nothing.
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You just reveal yourself to be a troll. Prove that you are not: what is the issue that was being discussed and by who? Remember, you need to do two things: a) show who said what in previous posts, b) make sure it isn't answered in the most comprehensive discussion of MMR you'll find anywhere.
Edit: I forgot to mention that you're obnoxious because all you do is always ask for others to do everything for you, instead of contributing. It's becoming a Cato thing with me.
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You don't even know what has been discussed obviously. So why do you send me random links and tell me to read it?
You in fact are the troll that you are talking of. I suggest you to train some reading comprehension.
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On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
The win was actually against mech on Akilon waste, plus this game was actually really close if I rembember correctly, while first game loss was a 6 pool. You might also question why Soulkey feels like he needed to gamble that much with a 6 pool opening against Supernova, which is not the best terran in the world right now. Maru vs Symbol wasn't the best game in the world, I give you that, but Symbol was such a macro beast in WoL, and the fact that he felt that he needed to switch from macro play to full all-in is telling me that he either felt that he couldn't handle new biomine play, or that Zerg as a whole couldn't.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
I should rewatch those game of Life against Bomber, but Life has his own playstyle in ZvT, with lots of ling bane agression allowing him to win the first MLG (but I rembember him saying that despite his win, he felt that terran were too strong), so I can understand why he could have won. But let's be honest, Bomber is a macro beast but never had impressive micro or splitting, I could see him lose to Life's unorthodox playstyle and ling bane agression.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Well you're pointing at Soo, but it's a 75% over 12 games, where his win come against Heart, Drewbie or Illusion, and one against Byun and Maru. Otherwise, he lost against Flash, then 2-1 against Gumiho. His 75% is far from impressive or telling that he is a ZvT monster.
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period?
Obviously, the game needs to be balanced to the highest level of players, but that doesn't mean like zerg needs some straight up buff like they tested with ultralisk. If Blizzard buff a unit like infestor or Ultralisk in order to make a SK vs Innovation 50/50 game, that would be shitty because as you said, it will also affect slightly less stronger players than Innovation (depending on how big the buff is, obviously). What they needs to do is to give more room for zerg to micro against the bio mine, someone suggested showing which units are targeted by the mine, that's a starting idea for example. Will that changes anything for me? Not at all, it would not even change for a lot of pro which doesn't have the proper micro/APM to takes advantage of this change, but if can allow skilled zerg like Life or Soulkey to split their unit in the one second window they have, that would be awesome to see. I'm not saying this is THE solution to the problem of biomine, but that they must explore this "region" to gives more possibility to micro against mines instead that just buffing a "counter-unit".
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On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period?
Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78%
So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho)
symbol 58%
vortix 67%
snute 56%
nerchio 69%
leenock 50%
jaedong 67%
curious 64% (11 matches)
scarlett 56%
hyun 71%
life 79%
soulkey 55%
violet 57%
DRG 50%
Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball)
roro 23%
nestea 57%
kangho 33%
Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans.
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On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans.
I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z.
http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=all
Above is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT.
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On August 28 2013 12:04 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans. I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z. http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=allAbove is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT.
I didnt sort by race matchup. Just overall. Sorting by race matchup can yield interesting results because they would be classified as say a zerg sniper and go against all of the hard zergs and get a lower winrate (but yields a higher aligulac rating, because they gained more for a win and lost fewer for a loss. See: Roro who is at a 23% winrate but is #16. #17 wont necessarily have a lower than 23% winrate). Also, I believe that the default sort includes both WoL and HotS (unsure). Your 65% is his game winrate for HotS + WoL he is 59% for HotS (for games, he is 67% in matches which is what I was going by). I am just saying that statistically, the top rated terrans beat top rated zergs. Not necessarily an indication of balance though, just addressing NarutO's idea that there arent many top terrans with very high winrates when in reality most every high rated terran is doing very well vs zerg.
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On August 28 2013 00:31 NarutO wrote:
I didn't even read about your marine/stalker stuff, sorry to say. Every player that says that Terran is a lot easier on the lower-levels should simply try playing Terran. While minehits can be devastating, minehits on pro level are devastating because they are often times controlled / focused. Mines are volatile and unreliable, they don't magically connect to the biggest baneling clumb.
On a lower-level with proper macro, I dare to say that the fights generally favor Zerg, while macro overall generally does favor Terran. Muta/Ling/Bane is very mechanically demanding especially with injects and as lots of Zergs don't like to get a macrohatch, they bank minerals because they cannot support it. So problems are completely different from the problems SoulKey has.
I made suggestions about changing mines, yet you keep saying I am biased. I am not, I simply disagree that the mines to increase Terrans winrate on any level by a large margin, because I don't see it happening.
You must have been away for a looooonnnng time because I explained it a lot of times, but I guess I can do it again for you. Oh and before you rant or whine again ... its NOT about balance ... its about DESIGN.
Lets start with the FACTS:
- Stalkers and Marines have roughly the same dps.
- The Stalker model is much bigger than the Marine model.
- The game allows for "maximized unit stacking" in an easy to use and automatic fashion.
Take all of these things together and you have a "Marine clump" which has roughly 2-3 times the DPS PER AREA of a clump of Stalkers. This should tell everyone with basic math skills that the Marines will win a "straight up everyone stands still" fight every time ... and this is the reason why Forcefield and Blink HAVE TO exist. You basically must have good Forcefield and Blink skills to fight against Marines.
Now at low numbers (3 Marines vs 1 Stalker) the problem does not exist, because the Stalker can kite the Marines and use his shield regeneration! Only at larger numbers (30 Marines vs 10 Stalkers) does the imbalance surface ... basically when the "critical number of Marines" has been reached, where you can kill a Stalker without any chance to react to it, move the injured Stalker away and use shield regen.
This is the easy example to show why "unlimited unit selection" and "perfectly tight and forced unit stacking" are causing balance problems in the game and should be changed. Limited unit selection and forced unit spreading simply put a cap on the "dps per area" and that is a good/necessary thing. Lower "army dps per area" means less incoming dps to the defender and this gives the defender the time to actually micro stuff AND it forces the attacker to try to maximize his dps through micro. Two more opportunities for good players to be separated from the bad players compared to the "auto maximized dps" we have now which gives the defender no chance for micro. There simply is no point for "Roach burrow micro" and the Blink micro is necessary to survive instead of an optional skill gimmick which shows great skill.
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On August 28 2013 14:16 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 00:31 NarutO wrote:
I didn't even read about your marine/stalker stuff, sorry to say. Every player that says that Terran is a lot easier on the lower-levels should simply try playing Terran. While minehits can be devastating, minehits on pro level are devastating because they are often times controlled / focused. Mines are volatile and unreliable, they don't magically connect to the biggest baneling clumb.
On a lower-level with proper macro, I dare to say that the fights generally favor Zerg, while macro overall generally does favor Terran. Muta/Ling/Bane is very mechanically demanding especially with injects and as lots of Zergs don't like to get a macrohatch, they bank minerals because they cannot support it. So problems are completely different from the problems SoulKey has.
I made suggestions about changing mines, yet you keep saying I am biased. I am not, I simply disagree that the mines to increase Terrans winrate on any level by a large margin, because I don't see it happening. You must have been away for a looooonnnng time because I explained it a lot of times, but I guess I can do it again for you. Oh and before you rant or whine again ... its NOT about balance ... its about DESIGN. Lets start with the FACTS: - Stalkers and Marines have roughly the same dps. - The Stalker model is much bigger than the Marine model. - The game allows for "maximized unit stacking" in an easy to use and automatic fashion. Take all of these things together and you have a "Marine clump" which has roughly 2-3 times the DPS PER AREA of a clump of Stalkers. This should tell everyone with basic math skills that the Marines will win a "straight up everyone stands still" fight every time ... and this is the reason why Forcefield and Blink HAVE TO exist. You basically must have good Forcefield and Blink skills to fight against Marines. Now at low numbers (3 Marines vs 1 Stalker) the problem does not exist, because the Stalker can kite the Marines and use his shield regeneration! Only at larger numbers (30 Marines vs 10 Stalkers) does the imbalance surface ... basically when the "critical number of Marines" has been reached, where you can kill a Stalker without any chance to react to it, move the injured Stalker away and use shield regen. This is the easy example to show why "unlimited unit selection" and "perfectly tight and forced unit stacking" are causing balance problems in the game and should be changed. Limited unit selection and forced unit spreading simply put a cap on the "dps per area" and that is a good/necessary thing. Lower "army dps per area" means less incoming dps to the defender and this gives the defender the time to actually micro stuff AND it forces the attacker to try to maximize his dps through micro. Two more opportunities for good players to be separated from the bad players compared to the "auto maximized dps" we have now which gives the defender no chance for micro. There simply is no point for "Roach burrow micro" and the Blink micro is necessary to survive instead of an optional skill gimmick which shows great skill.
Yeah because the stalker is supposed to be the counterpart of the marine. Thank you.
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On August 28 2013 14:16 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2013 00:31 NarutO wrote:
I didn't even read about your marine/stalker stuff, sorry to say. Every player that says that Terran is a lot easier on the lower-levels should simply try playing Terran. While minehits can be devastating, minehits on pro level are devastating because they are often times controlled / focused. Mines are volatile and unreliable, they don't magically connect to the biggest baneling clumb.
On a lower-level with proper macro, I dare to say that the fights generally favor Zerg, while macro overall generally does favor Terran. Muta/Ling/Bane is very mechanically demanding especially with injects and as lots of Zergs don't like to get a macrohatch, they bank minerals because they cannot support it. So problems are completely different from the problems SoulKey has.
I made suggestions about changing mines, yet you keep saying I am biased. I am not, I simply disagree that the mines to increase Terrans winrate on any level by a large margin, because I don't see it happening. You must have been away for a looooonnnng time because I explained it a lot of times, but I guess I can do it again for you. Oh and before you rant or whine again ... its NOT about balance ... its about DESIGN. Lets start with the FACTS: - Stalkers and Marines have roughly the same dps. - The Stalker model is much bigger than the Marine model. - The game allows for "maximized unit stacking" in an easy to use and automatic fashion. Take all of these things together and you have a "Marine clump" which has roughly 2-3 times the DPS PER AREA of a clump of Stalkers. This should tell everyone with basic math skills that the Marines will win a "straight up everyone stands still" fight every time ... and this is the reason why Forcefield and Blink HAVE TO exist. You basically must have good Forcefield and Blink skills to fight against Marines. Now at low numbers (3 Marines vs 1 Stalker) the problem does not exist, because the Stalker can kite the Marines and use his shield regeneration! Only at larger numbers (30 Marines vs 10 Stalkers) does the imbalance surface ... basically when the "critical number of Marines" has been reached, where you can kill a Stalker without any chance to react to it, move the injured Stalker away and use shield regen. This is the easy example to show why "unlimited unit selection" and "perfectly tight and forced unit stacking" are causing balance problems in the game and should be changed. Limited unit selection and forced unit spreading simply put a cap on the "dps per area" and that is a good/necessary thing. Lower "army dps per area" means less incoming dps to the defender and this gives the defender the time to actually micro stuff AND it forces the attacker to try to maximize his dps through micro. Two more opportunities for good players to be separated from the bad players compared to the "auto maximized dps" we have now which gives the defender no chance for micro. There simply is no point for "Roach burrow micro" and the Blink micro is necessary to survive instead of an optional skill gimmick which shows great skill.
So you look at one aspect of these units, the dps, and write wall of texts about that one aspect?
The relationship between stalkers and marines is pretty interesting in this game and far more complex then you make it sound. But I won't waste my time with this now.
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EPT
