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On August 29 2013 19:02 Sissors wrote:A flock of mutalisks easily take out 6 marines without even noticing there are 6 marines. Even when they are 3/3 marines. Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:57 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:55 hansonslee wrote:
As much as I think MMMM is pretty good, it's Symbol's fault for not teching. Staying on Lair tech has been the Zerg's one of the greatest and most stubborn mistake. he didn't have money for that. Matter of choices. If he would have been bit more careful with his mutas he could have mad a few less, and he had the money. Or also now he could simply have decided to make a few less mutas and instead get to hive.
Or if Reality hadn't left those idle mines he could've built 2 thors and raped those mutalisk. You can look for excuses forever my friend but lets be realistic.
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On August 29 2013 19:07 hansonslee wrote:
Let's hope that Overseer buff would help, which I highly doubt :/
Just watch the VOD of flash's stream : http://www.twitch.tv/ktrolsterflash/b/453050408
There are some awesome macro games TvZ (especially in the second half of the vod) but 4 times out of 5 he loses the macro game against some IIIIIIIIIIII zergs. Sadly we can not know who they are 
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The asymmetrical balancing of the game seems to favor terran too much in low econ situations, which is what most games boil down to in TvZ at the moment. Zerg's larva macro mechanic doesn't help if you don't have the money to spend. It's much easier for a bio terran to replenish supply in these scenarios thanks to the mule + reactors. It's harder for the zerg to prevent expansion snipes while the terran can fortify a base, and lift off when necessary. The current zerg composition of muta ling bane to counter MMMM also means the zerg cannot directly engage a terran army without either having a good supply lead or exceptional positioning (made really difficult by how flexible widow mines are).
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On August 29 2013 19:10 VieuxSinge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 19:07 hansonslee wrote:
Let's hope that Overseer buff would help, which I highly doubt :/ Just watch the VOD of flash's stream : http://www.twitch.tv/ktrolsterflash/b/453050408There are some awesome macro games TvZ (especially in the second half of the vod) but 4 times out of 5 he loses the macro game against some IIIIIIIIIIII zergs. Sadly we can not know who they are
These were some sloppy games by Flash. I think he is kinda disinterested. I saw he was playing weird marauder/helbat push. And in one game zerg didn't have mutalisks at all, and Flash didn't do a single drop.
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Discussing with you makes no sense. How does Zerg lose momentum when sitting back having the advantage? Your understanding of the game seems very lacking but I am pretty sure you are aware of that...
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On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 17:44 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:04 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans. I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z. http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=allAbove is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT. I didnt sort by race matchup. Just overall. Sorting by race matchup can yield interesting results because they would be classified as say a zerg sniper and go against all of the hard zergs and get a lower winrate (but yields a higher aligulac rating, because they gained more for a win and lost fewer for a loss. See: Roro who is at a 23% winrate but is #16. #17 wont necessarily have a lower than 23% winrate). Also, I believe that the default sort includes both WoL and HotS (unsure). Your 65% is his game winrate for HotS + WoL he is 59% for HotS (for games, he is 67% in matches which is what I was going by). I am just saying that statistically, the top rated terrans beat top rated zergs. Not necessarily an indication of balance though, just addressing NarutO's idea that there arent many top terrans with very high winrates when in reality most every high rated terran is doing very well vs zerg. You're looking at ZvT rates from Zergs that you assign as "top". If you want to look at good ZvT'ers, you have to include "snipers". They demonstrate a level of ZvT that is humanly possible, but excluded from your analysis because you dont include them as "top" Zergs. Whatever the case, the ZvT top 15 and TvZ top 15 show such a stark constrast. Top 15 Zerg versus T is at 65% win-rate while top 15 Terran versus Z is at 58%. This supports Narut0's view that it's only very few players who demonstrate dominating Terran versus Z. Good players are going to be good and have insane win-rate. It's frankly unfair that all Terrans have to be nerfed against Z because a few players have insane win-rates against them - especially when there are Zergs with really good win-rate against Terrans but you brush them off as "snipers". Fuck, same can be said about Innovation then. Currently, only his TvZ is amazing. His TvT was beaten by maru and his TvP was beaten by Rain. He should be considered more of a TvZ "sniper". What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. What I'm trying to say is we shouldn't look into numbers. Better to discuss the game itself, take a particular game and analyze it to death.
I'm replying with numbers against a person who argued for numbers.
What if Terran race has a higher skill cap? How does that input into the human abilities of the players involved? With the same breathe : What if Zerg has a MUCH HIGHER skill cap that usually Zerg players don't seem to reach ala. Scarlett-level creep spread?
If you really believed that game should be discussed without numbers, maybe you should have responded to therabideer? But of course you didn't.
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On August 29 2013 19:14 NarutO wrote:
Discussing with you makes no sense. How does Zerg lose momentum when sitting back having the advantage? Your understanding of the game seems very lacking but I am pretty sure you are aware of that...
You better stop doing personal attacks. If you have nothing to say then move on. Its you "forever-a-pro" who's lacking game sense. If you had any idea what you're doing you would've won something already.
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On August 29 2013 19:19 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 19:14 NarutO wrote:
Discussing with you makes no sense. How does Zerg lose momentum when sitting back having the advantage? Your understanding of the game seems very lacking but I am pretty sure you are aware of that... You better stop doing personal attacks. If you have nothing to say then move on. Its you "forever-a-pro" who's lacking game sense. If you had any idea what you're doing you would've won something already.
And yet you fail to respond to the argument that "a Zerg loses momentum when sitting back back having the advantage" does not exist.
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On August 29 2013 19:21 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 19:19 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 19:14 NarutO wrote:
Discussing with you makes no sense. How does Zerg lose momentum when sitting back having the advantage? Your understanding of the game seems very lacking but I am pretty sure you are aware of that... You better stop doing personal attacks. If you have nothing to say then move on. Its you "forever-a-pro" who's lacking game sense. If you had any idea what you're doing you would've won something already. And yet you fail to respond to the argument that "a Zerg loses momentum when sitting back back having the advantage" does not exist.
In addition to that, he insults me when saying I shouldn't do personal attacks which I didn't even do in the first place. I simply pointed out a lack of understanding  ! Great guy he is.
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On August 29 2013 18:55 hansonslee wrote:
As much as I think MMMM is pretty good, it's Symbol's fault for not teching. Staying on Lair tech has been the Zerg's one of the greatest and most stubborn mistake.
teching out of Ling bane muta is not a solution. 3/3 ling/bane or even muta are still one shot by Widow mine. The only time where you have a chance as zerg to take the game is when you have big enough mutalisk ball to fight marines, clean the army and push it back, and then you can cross the map sniping base/VCS production with mutalisk and crushing wave of ling bane to clean the army. You do realize that if SK, Life and all the best zerg (even Scarlett does it that way) doesn't tech up to Hive units is because they understood what's the best choice to make, they probably tested all the possibility and timings and end up with the same conclusion.
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On August 29 2013 19:21 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 19:19 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 19:14 NarutO wrote:
Discussing with you makes no sense. How does Zerg lose momentum when sitting back having the advantage? Your understanding of the game seems very lacking but I am pretty sure you are aware of that... You better stop doing personal attacks. If you have nothing to say then move on. Its you "forever-a-pro" who's lacking game sense. If you had any idea what you're doing you would've won something already. And yet you fail to respond to the argument that "a Zerg loses momentum when sitting back back having the advantage" does not exist.
A "momentum" I was referring to is not exactly a economic/supply lead. Symbol was almost at Reality's production line and shut down two expansion. If he'd stay back, terran would regain position, meaning planting all widow mines and turrets and become fortress again, which is hard to break. And you coudn't tell at that moment if it was safe for Symbol to rush to hive and overwhelm the opponent with ultras. He could simply die to MMM since upgrades were almost finished.
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On August 29 2013 19:23 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 19:21 plogamer wrote:On August 29 2013 19:19 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 19:14 NarutO wrote:
Discussing with you makes no sense. How does Zerg lose momentum when sitting back having the advantage? Your understanding of the game seems very lacking but I am pretty sure you are aware of that... You better stop doing personal attacks. If you have nothing to say then move on. Its you "forever-a-pro" who's lacking game sense. If you had any idea what you're doing you would've won something already. And yet you fail to respond to the argument that "a Zerg loses momentum when sitting back back having the advantage" does not exist. In addition to that, he insults me when saying I shouldn't do personal attacks which I didn't even do in the first place. I simply pointed out a lack of understanding ! Great guy he is.
Yeah, nice try. Guess what. You did insult me. Story over. Don't respond to me anymore pls.
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On August 29 2013 19:28 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 19:23 NarutO wrote:On August 29 2013 19:21 plogamer wrote:On August 29 2013 19:19 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 19:14 NarutO wrote:
Discussing with you makes no sense. How does Zerg lose momentum when sitting back having the advantage? Your understanding of the game seems very lacking but I am pretty sure you are aware of that... You better stop doing personal attacks. If you have nothing to say then move on. Its you "forever-a-pro" who's lacking game sense. If you had any idea what you're doing you would've won something already. And yet you fail to respond to the argument that "a Zerg loses momentum when sitting back back having the advantage" does not exist. In addition to that, he insults me when saying I shouldn't do personal attacks which I didn't even do in the first place. I simply pointed out a lack of understanding ! Great guy he is. Yeah, nice try. Guess what. You did insult me. Story over. Don't respond to me anymore pls.
I pointed out you lack understanding of the game. You can rewatch the game, you will see mistakes (lots of) and you will see that Symbol was in a very advantageous position that he completely gave up when he didn't need to. You replied telling me that I fail as a progamer because I never won a thing. Guess you should also check on the scene, because I never was a progamer
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EDIT: whoops wrong thread
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On August 29 2013 19:08 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 19:02 Sissors wrote:A flock of mutalisks easily take out 6 marines without even noticing there are 6 marines. Even when they are 3/3 marines. On August 29 2013 18:57 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:55 hansonslee wrote:
As much as I think MMMM is pretty good, it's Symbol's fault for not teching. Staying on Lair tech has been the Zerg's one of the greatest and most stubborn mistake. he didn't have money for that. Matter of choices. If he would have been bit more careful with his mutas he could have mad a few less, and he had the money. Or also now he could simply have decided to make a few less mutas and instead get to hive. Or if Reality hadn't left those idle mines he could've built 2 thors and raped those mutalisk. You can look for excuses forever my friend but lets be realistic.
Two thors wouldn't have raped those mutalisks...
Even if he would have attacked right into them it wouldn't have happened. But larger problem. Thors are slow. Freaking slow. So at best he could have defended two spots with them.
And didn't those idle mines pretty much win him the game?
The problem however is that you only look at errors the terran made, and completely ignore any errors from the other side. In the end if you look at how many zergs are in top 32, isn't it a bit weird that is fairly balanced considering zergs are so hugely worse than terran that they pretty much autolose? Or above silver zerg is played way more than terran, despite zerg having it almost impossible to win?
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On August 29 2013 19:07 hansonslee wrote:
Let's hope that Overseer buff would help, which I highly doubt :/
Judging from that Symbol game it does help a lot. His mutalisk/overseer combo moved around much more consitently and much more secure and he didn't have to rebuild 1-2 overseers after every harass. Small details, but much more comfortable to play fast against possible mines everywhere.
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I have a brilliant idea :D why not give the overseer ability a use and let it deactive mines ? :D No trolling here, maybe that would be cool/work? :x Ofcourse needs to be balanced that not all mines can be deactivated and leave Terran naked.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 29 2013 20:00 NarutO wrote:
I have a brilliant idea :D why not give the overseer ability a use and let it deactive mines ? :D No trolling here, maybe that would be cool/work? :x Ofcourse needs to be balanced that not all mines can be deactivated and leave Terran naked.
contaminate costing 100 energy that is useful on units? +1!
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On August 29 2013 20:05 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 20:00 NarutO wrote:
I have a brilliant idea :D why not give the overseer ability a use and let it deactive mines ? :D No trolling here, maybe that would be cool/work? :x Ofcourse needs to be balanced that not all mines can be deactivated and leave Terran naked. contaminate costing 100 energy that is useful on units? +1!
Very different options are possible. As said, we need to take into account that Zerg can make more than one overseer and if all overseers can deactivate two mines it might be too much. Maybe play a bit with the ability. Either make it 150 energy to DEACTIVATE a mine or make it 100 energy and decrease splash damage of it / range of it / activation time of it.
There are tons of options and obviously you need to have some aspects to it and it would need testing. And as you said, potentially not just on mines, but maybe in general against units or something.
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On August 29 2013 19:26 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 19:21 plogamer wrote:On August 29 2013 19:19 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 19:14 NarutO wrote:
Discussing with you makes no sense. How does Zerg lose momentum when sitting back having the advantage? Your understanding of the game seems very lacking but I am pretty sure you are aware of that... You better stop doing personal attacks. If you have nothing to say then move on. Its you "forever-a-pro" who's lacking game sense. If you had any idea what you're doing you would've won something already. And yet you fail to respond to the argument that "a Zerg loses momentum when sitting back back having the advantage" does not exist. A "momentum" I was referring to is not exactly a economic/supply lead. Symbol was almost at Reality's production line and shut down two expansion. If he'd stay back, terran would regain position, meaning planting all widow mines and turrets and become fortress again, which is hard to break. And you coudn't tell at that moment if it was safe for Symbol to rush to hive and overwhelm the opponent with ultras. He could simply die to MMM since upgrades were almost finished.
Symbol 'could' have made an infestation pit, teched to hive while protecting his base, letting Reality back into the game. That would have been viable, Reality had nothing that could prevent it at that point. However he chose to essentially go all in.
His plan was to win before Reality got 3-3. It didn't work. This is not a balance issue. It felt very much like watching a blink stalker all in vs zerg.
On August 29 2013 20:07 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 20:05 lolfail9001 wrote:On August 29 2013 20:00 NarutO wrote:
I have a brilliant idea :D why not give the overseer ability a use and let it deactive mines ? :D No trolling here, maybe that would be cool/work? :x Ofcourse needs to be balanced that not all mines can be deactivated and leave Terran naked. contaminate costing 100 energy that is useful on units? +1! Very different options are possible. As said, we need to take into account that Zerg can make more than one overseer and if all overseers can deactivate two mines it might be too much. Maybe play a bit with the ability. Either make it 150 energy to DEACTIVATE a mine or make it 100 energy and decrease splash damage of it / range of it / activation time of it. There are tons of options and obviously you need to have some aspects to it and it would need testing. And as you said, potentially not just on mines, but maybe in general against units or something.
Why not have changlings activate mines as an activated ability?
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EPT
