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On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 17:44 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:04 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans. I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z. http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=allAbove is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT. I didnt sort by race matchup. Just overall. Sorting by race matchup can yield interesting results because they would be classified as say a zerg sniper and go against all of the hard zergs and get a lower winrate (but yields a higher aligulac rating, because they gained more for a win and lost fewer for a loss. See: Roro who is at a 23% winrate but is #16. #17 wont necessarily have a lower than 23% winrate). Also, I believe that the default sort includes both WoL and HotS (unsure). Your 65% is his game winrate for HotS + WoL he is 59% for HotS (for games, he is 67% in matches which is what I was going by). I am just saying that statistically, the top rated terrans beat top rated zergs. Not necessarily an indication of balance though, just addressing NarutO's idea that there arent many top terrans with very high winrates when in reality most every high rated terran is doing very well vs zerg. You're looking at ZvT rates from Zergs that you assign as "top". If you want to look at good ZvT'ers, you have to include "snipers". They demonstrate a level of ZvT that is humanly possible, but excluded from your analysis because you dont include them as "top" Zergs. Whatever the case, the ZvT top 15 and TvZ top 15 show such a stark constrast. Top 15 Zerg versus T is at 65% win-rate while top 15 Terran versus Z is at 58%. This supports Narut0's view that it's only very few players who demonstrate dominating Terran versus Z. Good players are going to be good and have insane win-rate. It's frankly unfair that all Terrans have to be nerfed against Z because a few players have insane win-rates against them - especially when there are Zergs with really good win-rate against Terrans but you brush them off as "snipers". Fuck, same can be said about Innovation then. Currently, only his TvZ is amazing. His TvT was beaten by maru and his TvP was beaten by Rain. He should be considered more of a TvZ "sniper". What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. What I'm trying to say is we shouldn't look into numbers. Better to discuss the game itself, take a particular game and analyze it to death.
Bomber 12–18 (40%) vs Korean Zerg in Maps and as its important to you (or more important) 3–8 (27%) in matches. TaeJa and Polt are 'upcoming' but being at 60% (61% and 62%) isn't really worrying as most top-players have winrates at about 60%. As mentioned, they also do not have that 60% winrate vs Zerg but across their match ups.
TaeJa has 68% vs Protoss for example, a match up that is seemingly in favor of Protoss currently.
Polt has 71% vs Protoss
INnoVaiton has 68% vs Protoss
As you can see, they have high winrates in the other match up as well. (Neither Terran seems to have amazing winrates in TvT (besides Bomber)
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On August 29 2013 18:22 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 15:34 Decendos wrote:On August 29 2013 14:38 NarutO wrote:Blame Blizzard that Terran has no viable playstyle but biomine  sadly Z also only has 1 playstyle vs biomine and since biomine > ling bane muta...yeah GG  Zerg also has roach/hydra which actually destroys biomine until you get spread out by drops. I seriously think Roach/Hydra timing pushes will become a thing in TvZ soon.
Roach/Hydra timing pushes WERE a thing 3-4months ago. Their problem is simply that they have been figured out to death at the highest level.
I don't know why people keep on pretending as if Zergs didn't try other stuff as muta/ling/bling. Especially roach/hydra has been experimented with a ton. And it just looks embarassing if a Terran doesn't push into it.
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On August 29 2013 18:23 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 17:44 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:04 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans. I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z. http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=allAbove is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT. I didnt sort by race matchup. Just overall. Sorting by race matchup can yield interesting results because they would be classified as say a zerg sniper and go against all of the hard zergs and get a lower winrate (but yields a higher aligulac rating, because they gained more for a win and lost fewer for a loss. See: Roro who is at a 23% winrate but is #16. #17 wont necessarily have a lower than 23% winrate). Also, I believe that the default sort includes both WoL and HotS (unsure). Your 65% is his game winrate for HotS + WoL he is 59% for HotS (for games, he is 67% in matches which is what I was going by). I am just saying that statistically, the top rated terrans beat top rated zergs. Not necessarily an indication of balance though, just addressing NarutO's idea that there arent many top terrans with very high winrates when in reality most every high rated terran is doing very well vs zerg. You're looking at ZvT rates from Zergs that you assign as "top". If you want to look at good ZvT'ers, you have to include "snipers". They demonstrate a level of ZvT that is humanly possible, but excluded from your analysis because you dont include them as "top" Zergs. Whatever the case, the ZvT top 15 and TvZ top 15 show such a stark constrast. Top 15 Zerg versus T is at 65% win-rate while top 15 Terran versus Z is at 58%. This supports Narut0's view that it's only very few players who demonstrate dominating Terran versus Z. Good players are going to be good and have insane win-rate. It's frankly unfair that all Terrans have to be nerfed against Z because a few players have insane win-rates against them - especially when there are Zergs with really good win-rate against Terrans but you brush them off as "snipers". Fuck, same can be said about Innovation then. Currently, only his TvZ is amazing. His TvT was beaten by maru and his TvP was beaten by Rain. He should be considered more of a TvZ "sniper". What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. What I'm trying to say is we shouldn't look into numbers. Better to discuss the game itself, take a particular game and analyze it to death. Bomber 12–18 (40%) vs Korean Zerg in Maps and as its important to you (or more important) 3–8 (27%) in matches. TaeJa and Polt are 'upcoming' but being at 60% (61% and 62%) isn't really worrying as most top-players have winrates at about 60%. As mentioned, they also do not have that 60% winrate vs Zerg but across their match ups. TaeJa has 68% vs Protoss for example, a match up that is seemingly in favor of Protoss currently. Polt has 71% vs Protoss INnoVaiton has 68% vs Protoss As you can see, they have high winrates in the other match up as well. (Neither Terran seems to have amazing winrates in TvT (besides Bomber)
Gosh, I just told you we shouldn't look into winrates and you present me it again. Where are you taking these numbers?
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On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:
What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable.
This "skill cap" argument is so pointless considering you can find billions of mistakes in each game from both sides. As for Bomber, Polt and TaeJa, they're not approaching Bogus vs Zerg any time soon.
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On August 29 2013 18:30 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:23 NarutO wrote:On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 17:44 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 12:04 plogamer wrote:On August 28 2013 06:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 28 2013 02:44 NarutO wrote:
Soulkey lost 1-2 to SuperNoVa. The win he got was utter and complete destruction, his loss in the macrogame was nailbitingly close while the other loss came from a 6 pool. Symbol played very badly against Maru and if you re-watch and take your time to watch the series, you will agree. Actually most people agreed that Symbol lost due to poor play.
Life destroyed Bomber before the WCS in Ritmix RSL. Given the maps were different, yet he easily took him down 4-2. The Terrans you mention or Terrans alltogether are not huge favorite over any Zerg, as for example WCG qualifier did show. Zerg vs Terran on about 100 or a little bit more maps was around 50%. Yes, the very top level that INnoVation and Flash do play on and I would dare to say INnoVation even higher does favor Terran, because its the race scales into the extreme with control/multitasking while no other race has a skill ceiling that high (I believe, while I think Zerg has high potential as well). So naturally speaking, INnoVation shines in that match up.
While I cannot point out 'amazing' records for Zergs besides SoO (75%) I cannot point out Terrans that have amazing records against Zerg either. Flash and INnoVation are both on 78% after that its FantaSy with 61% . Maru is below 50% and Bomber broke his 50% against Jaedong. Dream and MMA are both in very high winrates, but if you take a look at the opponents, I dare to say they played opponents far below their skill level (ie. Kane, CatZ, Bly, LoLvsXD, Protosser, ViBe, uzer) So really, as much as I agree that on INnoVations level there might be a needed change, I don't see the big balance issue and Terrans rising out of nowhere, because it does not happen. On the highest level and highest level tournaments (especially proleague that was ahuge concern) its the wins from Flash & INnoVation that heavily shift TvZ in Terrans favor. Is it because they are amazingly good and shine in the match up or is it because they reached a level where balance is a concern?
Thats the question. The other question is, if its a balance problem, what do you do about it? Do you want to balance around SoulKey and INnoVation/Flash/Life or do you balance around top level pros, but not the very best period? Taeja is 72%, Polt is 77%, and MVP is 68% (though he hasnt faced many, though he also has a bad wrist in a matchup which probably strains his wrist the most), Lucifron 71%, MKP 69% (I was surprised it was this high given how many games hes lost because of greed), EmpireHappy 79%, Yoda 67%, Dream 69%, Supernova 61%, MMA 78% So of the top 15 terrans on aligulac, 12 of them are greater than 61% vs Z. For Z's, it is 7 and many "top" zergs arent in the top 15 right now (nestea, roro, kangho) symbol 58% vortix 67% snute 56% nerchio 69% leenock 50% jaedong 67% curious 64% (11 matches) scarlett 56% hyun 71% life 79% soulkey 55% violet 57% DRG 50% Sen 100% (7 matches, 4 against softball) roro 23% nestea 57% kangho 33% Statistically, top terrans do better against top zergs than top zergs do against top terrans. I went to aligulac's site, and Vortix with 65% ZvT is 15th on the list of Zerg with best ZvT. Whereas the 15th best Terran TvZ player is Dayshi with 58% win-rate versus Z. http://www.aligulac.com/periods/92/?page=1&sort=vt&race=z&nats=allAbove is the link with Zergs in aligulac's database with best ZvT. I didnt sort by race matchup. Just overall. Sorting by race matchup can yield interesting results because they would be classified as say a zerg sniper and go against all of the hard zergs and get a lower winrate (but yields a higher aligulac rating, because they gained more for a win and lost fewer for a loss. See: Roro who is at a 23% winrate but is #16. #17 wont necessarily have a lower than 23% winrate). Also, I believe that the default sort includes both WoL and HotS (unsure). Your 65% is his game winrate for HotS + WoL he is 59% for HotS (for games, he is 67% in matches which is what I was going by). I am just saying that statistically, the top rated terrans beat top rated zergs. Not necessarily an indication of balance though, just addressing NarutO's idea that there arent many top terrans with very high winrates when in reality most every high rated terran is doing very well vs zerg. You're looking at ZvT rates from Zergs that you assign as "top". If you want to look at good ZvT'ers, you have to include "snipers". They demonstrate a level of ZvT that is humanly possible, but excluded from your analysis because you dont include them as "top" Zergs. Whatever the case, the ZvT top 15 and TvZ top 15 show such a stark constrast. Top 15 Zerg versus T is at 65% win-rate while top 15 Terran versus Z is at 58%. This supports Narut0's view that it's only very few players who demonstrate dominating Terran versus Z. Good players are going to be good and have insane win-rate. It's frankly unfair that all Terrans have to be nerfed against Z because a few players have insane win-rates against them - especially when there are Zergs with really good win-rate against Terrans but you brush them off as "snipers". Fuck, same can be said about Innovation then. Currently, only his TvZ is amazing. His TvT was beaten by maru and his TvP was beaten by Rain. He should be considered more of a TvZ "sniper". What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. What I'm trying to say is we shouldn't look into numbers. Better to discuss the game itself, take a particular game and analyze it to death. Bomber 12–18 (40%) vs Korean Zerg in Maps and as its important to you (or more important) 3–8 (27%) in matches. TaeJa and Polt are 'upcoming' but being at 60% (61% and 62%) isn't really worrying as most top-players have winrates at about 60%. As mentioned, they also do not have that 60% winrate vs Zerg but across their match ups. TaeJa has 68% vs Protoss for example, a match up that is seemingly in favor of Protoss currently. Polt has 71% vs Protoss INnoVaiton has 68% vs Protoss As you can see, they have high winrates in the other match up as well. (Neither Terran seems to have amazing winrates in TvT (besides Bomber) Gosh, I just told you we shouldn't look into winrates and you present me it again. Where are you taking these numbers?
Aligulac, TvX - Heart of the Swarm - vs Korean. You can say don't use statistics, I will answer stop trying to elevator Polt/TaeJa/Bomber and other Terrans onto a level they are not close to. INnoVation is a lot better than any other Terran in Terran vs Zerg - thats why people say IvZ.
On a side note - INnoVation has not just the highest winrate by far, but also a far superior game count in TvZ which does in addition show how good he is in that particular match up compared to other Terrans.
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On August 29 2013 18:30 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:
What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. This "skill cap" argument is so pointless considering you can find billions of mistakes in each game from both sides. As for Bomber, Polt and TaeJa, they're not approaching Bogus vs Zerg any time soon.
If you're watching Code S right now you should see how much huge mistakes Reality is making and he is still in the game. But we can't look into that right?. We have to use statistics.
/sarcasm
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On August 29 2013 18:42 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:30 TheDwf wrote:On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:
What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. This "skill cap" argument is so pointless considering you can find billions of mistakes in each game from both sides. As for Bomber, Polt and TaeJa, they're not approaching Bogus vs Zerg any time soon. If you're watching Code S right now you should see how much huge mistakes Reality is making and he is still in the game. But we can't look into that right?. We have to use statistics. /sarcasm
Because Symbol played a perfect game... right
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On August 29 2013 18:43 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:42 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:30 TheDwf wrote:On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:
What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. This "skill cap" argument is so pointless considering you can find billions of mistakes in each game from both sides. As for Bomber, Polt and TaeJa, they're not approaching Bogus vs Zerg any time soon. If you're watching Code S right now you should see how much huge mistakes Reality is making and he is still in the game. But we can't look into that right?. We have to use statistics. /sarcasm Because Symbol played a perfect game... right
He did less mistakes. And was ahead due to good decision making but apparently widow mines are good units.
Edit: And you need to be perfect zerg to beat a subpar terran. Great. Thats a balance!
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On August 29 2013 18:46 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:43 NarutO wrote:On August 29 2013 18:42 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:30 TheDwf wrote:On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:
What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. This "skill cap" argument is so pointless considering you can find billions of mistakes in each game from both sides. As for Bomber, Polt and TaeJa, they're not approaching Bogus vs Zerg any time soon. If you're watching Code S right now you should see how much huge mistakes Reality is making and he is still in the game. But we can't look into that right?. We have to use statistics. /sarcasm Because Symbol played a perfect game... right He did less mistakes. And was ahead due to good decision making but apparently widow mines are good units.
He was ahead, he fucked up. There is really no other way to describe it. He also handled drops very bad.
Tbh what he is doing now should be done by far more zergs: Just baneling landmines everywhere. The amount of scans you force from the terran that way costs a fortune. Now too late however.
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On August 29 2013 18:46 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:43 NarutO wrote:On August 29 2013 18:42 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:30 TheDwf wrote:On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:
What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. This "skill cap" argument is so pointless considering you can find billions of mistakes in each game from both sides. As for Bomber, Polt and TaeJa, they're not approaching Bogus vs Zerg any time soon. If you're watching Code S right now you should see how much huge mistakes Reality is making and he is still in the game. But we can't look into that right?. We have to use statistics. /sarcasm Because Symbol played a perfect game... right He did less mistakes. And was ahead due to good decision making but apparently widow mines are good units. Edit: And you need to be perfect zerg to beat a subpar terran. Great. Thats a balance!
He was ahead. According to you that isn't even possible. And when he was ahead, he should have taken his time to sit back, push his creep, set up his expansions. He did counter, he damaged Terran, but the better choice was to stay ahead / get more ahead so the not so cost efficient trades become more possible.
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As much as I think MMMM is pretty good, it's Symbol's fault for not teching. Staying on Lair tech has been the Zerg's one of the greatest and most stubborn mistake.
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On August 29 2013 18:49 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:46 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:43 NarutO wrote:On August 29 2013 18:42 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:30 TheDwf wrote:On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:
What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. This "skill cap" argument is so pointless considering you can find billions of mistakes in each game from both sides. As for Bomber, Polt and TaeJa, they're not approaching Bogus vs Zerg any time soon. If you're watching Code S right now you should see how much huge mistakes Reality is making and he is still in the game. But we can't look into that right?. We have to use statistics. /sarcasm Because Symbol played a perfect game... right He did less mistakes. And was ahead due to good decision making but apparently widow mines are good units. Edit: And you need to be perfect zerg to beat a subpar terran. Great. Thats a balance! He was ahead. According to you that isn't even possible. And when he was ahead, he should have taken his time to sit back, push his creep, set up his expansions. He did counter, he damaged Terran, but the better choice was to stay ahead / get more ahead so the not so cost efficient trades become more possible.
His mistake started long before that. He didn't build an infestation pit after the first 10-15mutas. From there on he played it right, because he would have never gotten up the hive and the 3-3 in time anyways, so he had to end it there.
His gameplan was just shit.
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On August 29 2013 18:55 hansonslee wrote:
As much as I think MMMM is pretty good, it's Symbol's fault for not teching. Staying on Lair tech has been the Zerg's one of the greatest and most stubborn mistake.
he didn't have money for that.
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I will say it was silly to watch that big fight in the middle of the map where widow mine hits destroyed half of Symbol's army, but then he equalized by returning the favor with massive baneling hits. Area of effect units are so weird in this game.
It's also weird to see a flock of mutalisks having to run away from 6 marines.
I'm not going to claim it's imbalanced, but I don't really like watching it I guess.
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On August 29 2013 18:57 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:55 hansonslee wrote:
As much as I think MMMM is pretty good, it's Symbol's fault for not teching. Staying on Lair tech has been the Zerg's one of the greatest and most stubborn mistake. he didn't have money for that.
He could have saved a bit of gas for hive tech or (at least, infestors, which Scarlett has used to deal with MMMM aggression). Sure, it's not the best option (because you need every units you can get), but staying on Lair is simply delaying the inevitable. It's better to take the leap of faith than stick to a failed composition.
But I can understand Symbol's frustration, because I am pretty fed up with how Terran have to rely on bio in ALL matchups!
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On August 29 2013 18:42 saddaromma wrote:
If you're watching Code S right now you should see how much huge mistakes Reality is making and he is still in the game. But we can't look into that right?. We have to use statistics.
/sarcasm
I'm not the one using statistics. And Symbol came close to winning despite being outplayed in midgame.
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A flock of mutalisks easily take out 6 marines without even noticing there are 6 marines. Even when they are 3/3 marines.
On August 29 2013 18:57 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:55 hansonslee wrote:
As much as I think MMMM is pretty good, it's Symbol's fault for not teching. Staying on Lair tech has been the Zerg's one of the greatest and most stubborn mistake. he didn't have money for that.
Matter of choices. If he would have been bit more careful with his mutas he could have mad a few less, and he had the money. Or also now he could simply have decided to make a few less mutas and instead get to hive.
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On August 29 2013 19:02 Sissors wrote:A flock of mutalisks easily take out 6 marines without even noticing there are 6 marines. Even when they are 3/3 marines. Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:57 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:55 hansonslee wrote:
As much as I think MMMM is pretty good, it's Symbol's fault for not teching. Staying on Lair tech has been the Zerg's one of the greatest and most stubborn mistake. he didn't have money for that. Matter of choices. If he would have been bit more careful with his mutas he could have mad a few less, and he had the money. Or also now he could simply have decided to make a few less mutas and instead get to hive.
No, if the mutalisks are spread out even slightly you'll lose two of them before taking out the 3/3 marines.
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On August 29 2013 18:49 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 18:46 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:43 NarutO wrote:On August 29 2013 18:42 saddaromma wrote:On August 29 2013 18:30 TheDwf wrote:On August 29 2013 18:12 saddaromma wrote:
What if terran race simply has a higher skillcap? Races are assymmetrical in diffuculty. Suppose this, terran has a "potential" to beat any zerg no matter what if player reaches certain skill level. And only few players are able to do that. But once they are there, they're basically unbeatable for zergs. Its quite possible, since previously, only Innovation was godly in TvZ, but now, bomber, polt and taeja are also coming up strong. Albeit rest of terrans are still unstable. This "skill cap" argument is so pointless considering you can find billions of mistakes in each game from both sides. As for Bomber, Polt and TaeJa, they're not approaching Bogus vs Zerg any time soon. If you're watching Code S right now you should see how much huge mistakes Reality is making and he is still in the game. But we can't look into that right?. We have to use statistics. /sarcasm Because Symbol played a perfect game... right He did less mistakes. And was ahead due to good decision making but apparently widow mines are good units. Edit: And you need to be perfect zerg to beat a subpar terran. Great. Thats a balance! He was ahead. According to you that isn't even possible. And when he was ahead, he should have taken his time to sit back, push his creep, set up his expansions. He did counter, he damaged Terran, but the better choice was to stay ahead / get more ahead so the not so cost efficient trades become more possible.
Symbol couldn't sit back, because he had the momentum, and if zerg loses momentum we know what will happen (3-3 marine parade). Therefore he tried to use it as much as possible. Either way, this game was horrible by both, but in the end terran wins. Why? Because there terran is not severely punished for mistakes. Terran mistake = lose marines, which are basically free, zerg mistake = lose muta, very expensive. It is imbalance.
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Let's hope that Overseer buff would help, which I highly doubt :/
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EPT
